(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[engraphos]

I love this game, but new changes make me stay away and install Destiny 2... DE please play again  Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor and learn how to balance grind/difficulty/fun with  the Nemesis System.

I get it is business and you want to gain money to roll the machine,, and some things rely need to be put behind some grind so that players with limited free time and with a steady salary will buy stuff in game to enjoy their play time...but...think at better way to implement this.

So far the game was good...don't know what's going there at your headquarters but is clear someone is pushing good ideas but execution is bad.
Sure i am one, but for the moment i do not have anymore fun with the game and i stop, because of this Lich system nonsens.

I will be back if you fix the mess, for the moment i think i will install again and play  Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor...lol... or Destiny 2, sure they do not have DE warframe diversity and weirdness but for sure they know how to write a story and make the world very well connected.

And one more thing, stop change stuff in game at demand of some players that are casuals or very new in game.
DE should make some rules about game design complains, and only veterans that know the game well, or at least players that have 100-500 hours in game could have a pertinent opinion.

[(XBOX)Method 24]

On 2019-11-03 at 7:37 PM, Buff00n said:

In many Grineer spy vaults Live Wire will shock nearby Sensor Regulators, even through walls, setting off the alarms.  It took me a while to figure out why alarms were going off instantly as soon as I started hacking something.

Just want to re-emphasize this point.  A mod that's supposed to help Spying and hacking shouldn't make spying without alarms impossible.

[Buff00n]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Method 24 said:

Just want to re-emphasize this point.  A mod that's supposed to help Spying and hacking shouldn't make spying without alarms impossible.

To be fair, Live Wire was patched pretty quickly on PC to only affect alerted enemies.  Did that not make it into the XB1 version?

[StalPL]

Make ephemeras more often :c

[continue]

My experience with the Kuva Lich system is overwhelmingly negative. 

I decide to spawn my first Kuva Lich to see what kind of rewards I can get. It spawns with a Kuva Karak. I don't care for Kuva Karak, but I decide to give the system a shot anyways. After a couple hours of running influenced nodes, I decide it probably isn't worth the effort just to try to re-roll for another weapon, and decide to ignore it while I go play other parts of the game. I do my daily sortie, and the Lich steals my sortie rewards. 

My impression of the Kuva Lich system is that I am being forced to play one part of the game that isn't even rewarding to me to avoid being punished when I play other parts.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

Killing the kuva lich needs to be a separate assassination mission (one that folks can invite a group to help kill) and not a drop in additional objective. Had persons lich just dropped in and they refused to fight it and assassinate it, when I eventually got it to low health. Its super annoying.

[Unitanubis]

I like the hunting of the Lich but the mods only having 3 uses and being uncommon drops feels bad and it is pretty blatant why, when you are selling packs of them. If they were rare and were untradable or they dropped as the common reward it would be significantly better. It is so bad that as soon as you need to farm a new mod that lich system becomes unfun to play.

 

DE you make something that has potential but then put a mechanic in that makes it so much worse. The intentional flaws in the new content and the time taken to fix them is horrible e.g. Arbitrations and they still have glaring issues. Disruption is one the few times that you fixed the biggest issue in reasonable time.

[Badgerdomo]

Probably not an original thought... But I feel current kuva liches are very slow and grindy combination lock of a boss. Something I suggest to help speed up the grind of kuva liches so you can experience all of the rewards of lich hunting is to make it so if you are in a group with somebody who eliminates or converts a lich, you get a free rune reveal. I think this is reasonable since it rewards players for helping others kill their liches. Have a blessed day

 

TLDR: If you help assist in killing/converting somebody elses kuva lich, you get a free rune reveal.

[Azrael_V]

I recently finished my first Kuva Lich and have to say it was fun overall. I took a really chilled approach and took a few days to finally take him down. The positives for me was the challenge behind the whole thing. Its a nice touch to have normal low level maps turn in lvl 100 plus missions. The actual lich battle with cutscene was fine. Not sure if I enjoyed being insta-killed but I accept its part of what happens. The Lich abilities were cool. I do feel that the final battle needs to be looked at. Instead of having the Lich spawn during a mission why not have him challenge you to a random spot and you can face him properly. A special type of Assassinate Mission that pops up after the Lich reaches level 5 would be great. Having him spawn randomly on a normal mission takes away from whats supposed to be an epic battle. I mean after he is converted/vanquished you still have to finish whatever mission tileset you are on which makes the whole experience meh. 

Although I took a chilled approach I still found the level of grind kind of crazy. The Murmur Grind was acceptable but having to grind for Requiems after that is insane. What saved me was that I had previously done enough Kuva Flood missions to have some relics to open. The rest was doing relic runs, hoping RNG goes your way and sitting in trade chat. Its honestly abit much. I personally feel the relic thing should be removed and completely reworked. Even the Lore behind the Relics doesn't fit. What do the Corrupted have to do with Kuva Liches? If anything opening those relics should require some type of Kuva derivative or something. I'm sure there is a better way to get the Requiems needed without adding more grind especially when you consider the amount of time the Murmur Grind takes. 

tldr: The overall experience was positive. The final battle with the Lich needs to be a special mission that pops up once it reaches Lvl 5. Killing or converting him during a normal mission really makes the whole thing meh. It should be epic. The overall grind is too excessive and RNG heavy. 

[ArcKnight9202]

I had an idea for the Kuva Weapons. At least for the repeats.

Create some system that allows the guns to be broken down into Kuva Keys. What do these do? Well, there are a lot of ideas.

-Access a 1 on 1 with that Lich again but at a much higher level (maybe 10!). Or some variation of this.
-Access a raid-style battle with that Lich where you fight a powered up version of that Lich with a random other Grineer boss, or bosses, on their tile. Sort of like the Vor and Lech Kril.
-Access (up to) a 4 on 4 with other players and their Lich Kuva Keys. Fight them together as well as all at once.

Prizes can be anything cool. I don't really have any ideas for this. Maybe a prestige version of one of your Kuva Weapons? Like a new paint job? Maybe they could explode with Kuva and random Arcanes? It's not like this could be easily spam-farmed considering the amount of time it takes to even obtain one key.

I don't know, maybe this is too silly. It sounds fun, though. 🙂

Edited November 30, 2019 by ArcKnight9202

[Cloud]

Sorry I choose to ignore liches till we will have:

a way to dispose of bad rolls / any kind of control on the weapon generated / somekind of minimum progress on possessed kuva weapons through bad rolls.

It's absurd I must go through the whole process of farming murmur and requiem for a weapon I don't want or have already, and probably with a bad stat too without earning any kind of progress. 

[thurmack]

Can someone explain why Liches steal resources, and then you get them all back? Why even bother?
I'd prefer if the Lich stole resources to build something, or even just spent them to pressure us to get to fighting them.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

PS4 Lich Bug?

-If you parazon enemies to quickly or its laggy it doesnt show animations?

-If you parazon a lich to quickly it will not test your requiem mod and let you know if it was pass/fail, then your Lich will kill you, level up, and flee.

I was in a squad when my Lich showed up.  One of my squad was closest to my lich and they got locked behind a door.  By the time I got there the other guy was beating down my lich pretty easily.  My Lich was down so I spiked him for the 1st mod which I already knew.  Then we beat down the lich a second time almost instantly.   When I went to parazon him with 2nd mod which I did not know, the Lich just killed me, level up, and left.   But the 2nd mod I used did not register the attempt,  It was not marked as a failure like it should have been and it obviously wasnt a pass.  

This persisted even after the mission.  I opened my Lich's page and looked at my attempt record and that fight did not get registered.  (But the Lich had still leveled.).  That was my 8th Lich and first time it happend so i'd say its rare/not a big deal,  but testing mods is kind of important dont like not having that info.  

Pretty sure this happened because I parazon'd the lich before he fell to his knee's.  Likewise if you spike thralls to quickly it just skips the animation.  

[(PSN)narutoStar24]

[DE limit weapon types to specific planets I.e 

Shotguns on sedna or archgun on Neptune.]

[Make guessing requiems a real game, give more feedback:

Green - correct

Amber- wrong placement

Red- wrong

Then let the us test all 3 on lich mercy, if needed change lich step downs to an aoe knockback and he gains a resistance to the damage type he took the most damage from like sentients.]

Just a want, when u improve ai try achieve shadow of war adaptive AI.

 

[JHarlequin]

 I am not totally against the lich killing us when we can't finish it, but I feel that the guesswork is taking way too long.

 Getting hints in some sort of "Mastermind" fashion when defeating thralls would be a nice bonus so that maybe we can work out which requiems to use without just killing 200 thralls.

 People that figure it out quickly might kill the lich when they first meet them, and people that don't want to or can't figure it out will just have to wait for the points to add up until they get the murmurs completed.

 The system as it is currently is really just a matter of how long you play, it isn't a matter of any skill.  This should be a matter of skill.

 I do agree though that having to make many kills to hope to get an upgraded weapon is definitely a hassle.  The Valence transfer is nice, but we really should just have the chance to add a weaker gun to a strong gun to increase it's bonus a little bit until we get it to maximum.  It may still take ten to twenty duplicates, but with the current system we have the exact same issue.  Ten to twenty duplicates and we will only have a slight chance of getting as strong a gun as possible.

[ArcaneFrame]

Preface: Some of these points may have already been said, but I'm not taking hours to search this thread or all the multitude of threads on the forums.

In general, I will say that I like the kuva lich kingpin system. The baddies are nice, they add some challenge to the game, and they provide something to do besides "sorties/nightwave/relics". However, as with all systems, there is plenty of room for improvement. 

• Known Rewards. All of a Lich's RNG is front loaded when you generate the I think this is actually the biggest problem with the lich system. There's not even a *chance* of a new reward once you've generated you lich. This means that if you don't like anything that the lich has, you're already disappointed BEFORE you start the grind. And then you'll have to endure a long(2-8 hours) grind to kill the lich. 
  • Solution: Add some rewards rewards to the lich drop table. Something that make us WANT to kill the liches, even if we already have the ephemera and the weapon. Maybe liches can drop kuvatium - a mineral used to increase the power of a kuva-lich weapon. Maybe we can get some mods for the kuva weapons, a la sedan-mods. Maybe you can add another drop point for rare mods like condition overload.  Perhaps we can tie some cool drops(like ephemera) to the "type" of lich. Whatever the case is, there needs to be SOMETHING. Otherwise it feels like a waste. Personally, I'm grinding liches for ephemera, and every time I spawn a lich without one, i die a little inside. Because I'm not thinking about how to fight this lich. I'm thinking about how to move on to the next lich so I might get another shot at that sweet ephemera. P.S. Drops should definitely be tied to lich level, to give incentives for reaching a lvl 5 lich.
• Lack ofIncentive to help fight liches. This has been somewhat worked on by adding kuva to the drop tables, though if I'm honest, I'm still not sure how much kuva I'm supposed to get. However, it's not enough. Because my lvl 5 lich is still never going to give anyone anything for helping me. The only incentives a player has to help kill a lvl 5 lich is that I might help them on their lich. Everything else is just being nice. Shared murmur progress was great, though it didn't require people to actually "help". Personally, I'd like to see some form of drop (as suggested in the first part) when you vanquish/convert. Note: it's not on fight. This rewards people for fighting the lich, but doesn't go overboard
• Spawning - my liches hate to spawn. I can run 6-10 missions with them at furious, and never see hide nor hair of them. There really needs to be a better way of guarnateeing a lich spawn.
  • Solution: Maybe a specialized node that unlocks once they're annoyed/furious?
• Missions - Some missions are just antithetical to liches. They're Mobile Defense, interception, Rescue, Hijack, Spy, and Defense. Mobile Defense is too long and too easy to fail, especially when you're lich is lvl 5. Rescue/Hijack - Same difficulty issues as mobile defense, as well as the inability to hunt down thralls/fight liches once the target is on the run. Defense/Interception are easier than mobile defense, but still difficult as liches lvl, and almost impossible w/o group at high level. And lastly, spy - Lich can spawn and ruin vault. On all of these mission types, I usually have a 50/50 shot of not finding team mates, because they're avoided like the plague. 
  • Solution: Convert these missions into more reasonable alternatives(capture/exterminate/sabotage)

[lemonforest]

unless it's 2 or more on a map, it seems like I'm getting insta-killed in the fight to drain the lich before I can even parazon it.  I can be full hp and maybe some shield, just over 1k hp with umbra excal, and get picked-tossed and then die when I hit the floor. What's up with that? I also can see my frame's HP going down if I do manage to go operator just before and continue to go down and we end up with the insta death because frame died while in operator mode crap.  Is this intended and I just get used to it or what?

Thanks!

[Aldain]

Just dropping by to state I am still against the automatic death and consider it terrible game design.

Keep up the good work otherwise, here's hoping that the Lich system will work better once Empyrean drops.

[Ikusias]

After much debate I caved in and did my first lich, seeing as I had nothing better to do...

What a freaking slog!

It was the most boring experience in Warframe I ever had, even worse than farming Ivara trough spy vaults (that at least can be speed run) or getting all of Equinox parts from Til Regor.

And for what? minimum elemental bonus weapon! At least is one of the new ones but still what crap!

If even the weapon is a duplicate or a worse version of a possessed version, the current Nemesis system offfers absolutely no return for time invested!

 

> Murmur farming:

Boring as hell! The usual missions with the only target of downing the 4-5 or so thralls that spawn among the regular troops... that's it.

Enemies are higher in level so there's a reason to use decent builds and weapons but still there's no payback, you get the usual drops of the node (stolen by the lich) and reduce it influence on the planet only for it taking root somewere else in the solar system...

Some of the missions have poor compatibility with thrall hunting due to objective constraints:

- hijack due to the need of babysitting the target, severely limiting freedom of movement, at least enemies come to you...

- spy vaults are potentially unplayable with chance of Lich spawning inside during hacking and raising the alarm

- defense/mobile defense: lich can potentially obliterate defense objectives during the fight turning missions into a russian roulette

- all "endless" missions have fixed duration and only a limited number of thralls to "interrogate"

- lich controlled nodes are a ghost town, it's improbable at best to find other players to share missions with, resulting in a solo farm again in a multiplayer game

Actual mission objective is completely irrelevant to narrative! Only effect of doing murmur missions is removing lich influence on node

- Capture mission: hunt the target, collaterally take down any thrall that spawns, hope the lich doesn't interfere when capturing your target... capture target isn't even a thrall or in ant way connected to the lich! I was on Jupiter and I got a corpus target on a grineer controlled tile wtff?! Why isn't the target itself a source of informations/murmurs?!

- Spy mission: crack the vaults, no effect on murmur advancement, risk of lich spawn of immediate fail.

- Survival: you are there as a diversion... no contest to fighting the lich, just doing the usual boring mission, with a single "rotation" of duration, so no infinite murmur farming.

- Defense: one rotation and you leave, actually defending the objective has no effect on murmurs, thralls are just there... and you can stay only a single rotation of 5 waves

- etc...

 

> Lich influence:

Makes no freaking sense at all! We kick it s ass out of a planet and it instantly dominates another entire planet?! WTFF!

Everything about lich control over the Origin System makes no freaking sense, both in suddeness and effectiveness, at best it should behave like invasion missions in which we can actively partecipate to influence or delay the outcome, not that a lich suddenly wakes up and snatches entire planets out of enemy control, when Corpus and Grineer have been fighting for years over Saturn!

 

> Fighting the Lich:

Even more boring with a side of annoyance! Pile of trash demi-boss is as usual invulnerable to nearly everything we have a la Wolf of Saturn 6, has no proper "lair" tileset for the final fight and gets annoying as Vay Hek with very repetitive "dialogue", from my boss I got a grand total of 5-6 different sentences!

I endured the murmur grind only to get rid of radio transmissions and of my lich condescending lines.

Vulnerabilities are irrelevant, most abilities, as usual, are useless, occasional brocken animations obscuring the "tells" for some of the Lich worse attacks, Lich being able to fire through intervening enemies, some terrains etc.

Powerset was completely wrong! I downed my larvling with an Equinox and i got  a lich with Mirage's mirror images, Rhyno Iron charge, Loky's switch teleport and another ability that was so irrelevant I didn't even notice it.Lich also used said abilities quite badly... if not at all, devolving the fight inan attrition war - yust like the trash that was the Wolf of Saturn 6.

Instant failure on wrong parazon mods combination with included backbreaker - No! Freaking screw this, I can't accept that we win, we make the stupid bullet sponge of a lich into hamburger  and suddenly it overkills us! It could be excusable if we used a completely wrong combination with none of the "correct" mods equipped, but in all other cases is utter manure!

Fighting the lich is boring, boring borign, I had more fun fighting  Shadow stalker in one of those missions as he spawned with a very respectable level, than fighting the wretch that was my lich!

 

> Investment into Lich system

0 and I mean It, after experimenting what the "system", and it's generous wording, has to offer I can't actually justify wasting time on it, especially after receiving a minimal elemental bonus weapon, no ephemera or  worthwhile/unique drops. Recovered resources ar also vastly irrelevant.

What does Kuva Lich system offer? more of the same old crap, nothing more.

Why I should keep playing this system? If I decide to get all weapons and ephemera then what? Another empty box like Disruption, Arbitration, Defection, Infested salvage?

After all the hype, Tennocon presentation, original concept aped, baldy, from Shadow of Mordor, Kuva Lich system falls flat on its face as in D.o.A. DEAD ON ARRIVAL

 

I sincerely hope that Empyrean launch actually bring the "real content" relative to liches but I doubt so considering the limited time remaining

 

To sum it up:

Kuva lich gameplay is not engaging:

- murmurs grind is stupidly monotonous and "isolated" - no dinamic missions, no alternative sources of information, nothing

- kuva lich birth: we stomp a worm and bam superpowered enemy that sudenly occupies most of the starchart - stupid and boring

- Kuva lich removal: failing parazon combo on lich earns you a bed place right beside batman after bane was done with him... why if our lich was on the ground vomiting blood and vishera? just let us murder it and have it then resuscitate like we do with warframes - that is an immortal, not a cheater that ignores the rules of the fragging game

- kuva weapons: blergh sidegrades at best, ofthen result in worse versions of parent weapon, tonkor and ogris in particular, parent weapon are also  bottom tier to start with

- negative player experience: hours of poor gamplay with high potential of 0 payoff if: you get a weapon you already have, or  a worse version.

 

 

 

[Alundil55]

Killing the lich is truly an unnecessary grind and is not fun needing to pray to RNGesus to get the right parazon mods in order to even fully work out which is the right pattern. At this point, I'm still working on killing my first lich because I can't get the freakin khra to drop after going through close to 10 fully upgraded reqium iv mods. Note, the other paired with khra, n-something, hasn't dropped either. So now I've just got this fool stealing a large part of my rewards every time I'm unlucky enough to need to run a mission on a planet that he has influence on.

 

An RNG fest to get the right relic to drop, to pray to RNG for the right mods to drop, to suss out a RNG pattern of mods to use, to maybe get a decent new weapon (but more likely fodder) with stats that are RNG derived.

 

Really? DE? Are you sure that this is a mechanic you want to go with? Because the more times I run another flood hoping for the right relic to even hope to get the right mod, so I can finally kill the lich and never do this again, makes me want to not log in.

[Ikusias]

Something a bit more constructive after all that criticism, largely a polished repost of my previous comments:

> Kuva lich "birth/ascent" feels "random"

Now we don't risk to accidentally rise a Lich, still a mere nobody being given the chance to become lich feels substantially "wrong". Liches start as some no name weakling, "die" and suddenly return with troops, equipment and resources that would shame Sargas Rhuk... this sudden power growth makes no sense for a mere "mob"

>Justified apparently by the "experimental" nature of the entire entreprise for the Worm Queen - from time to time instead of getting a larvling spawn the kuva guardians report in game that the subject was "non viable" and degraded too much to be of use<

Still I'd rather have a ranked grineer with at least a number as a name, as origin for a lich - a unit or multiple units appearing in kuva related missions as part of the garrison, as some kind of miniboss.

 

>Star map grab and control

Lich influence spreads too fast! Currently we need those occupied nodes to farm fro thralls with current system implementation, what if it wasn't the case anymore?

Current rate of expansion is completely unbelievable and too sudden, conflicting with established canon and believability (were the Hek did the grineer suddenly pull out all that manpower, ships and resources without our prior knowledge they were ammassing all that military might!?) with Kuva Lich leveling actually jumpstarting even faster territory grabbing...

Turning territorial Lich expansion in actual frequent invasion missions would be a lot more believable and make use of what's already ingame without straining suspension of disbelief this much.

- It would give us actual hand in controlling/mitigating how far and how fast lich influence encroaches in the Origin System while mantaining a more believable rate of propagation: the more we engage in its invasion missions, the slower its encroachment.

- Thrall hunt would have an actual contestualization as is, as we would be "de facto" headhunting the lich lieutenants, derailing its invasion efforts.

- Actual improvement ad contestualization of conflict mechanics with our lich as, the more we derail its plans, the more motivated to hunt us down, through proxies or personally, it would beecome, much like Alad V and Vay Hek can start to send assassins after hour hides for interfering too much during invasions!

- Routine missions outside of Lich influence could get random additional objectives depending on Lich threath rating and attention on us like being informed during an exterminate or other mission that an alliy has been captured by lich forces and needs immediate recue, or  the enemy ship the squad boarded has been rigged for selfdestruction in a reverse sabotage in which we attempt to prevent the reactor from going critical.

- Invasion missions could get a "final" mission in wich we actually eliminate the lich second in command detailed to that expedition, raising lich enimty towards us, if it could afford to ignore us as a minor setback, after something like this happening multiple times we become a priority threat, all through our actual interacting with the actual game!

- An actual mission node hosting our lich operative base for us to discover, through research or happenstance (like being captured by lich troops).

- It will tie-in easily with wathever the nature of Empyrean will be, including launching preemptive attacks on lich forces to postpone or completely derail ongoing planetary landings.

 

> Investigating kuva lich requiem is boring, repetitive and feels "disconnected" from regular starchart

Connecting to what I discussed about changing liches territorial expansions, DE needs to give us alternative ways to accumulate murmurs or better  actual hints.

- Parazon mods have nice pieces of phrose that feel totally wasted with their lack of use, somehow integrate them in unlocking the proper requiem!

- Fighting our lich before the final showdown needs to feel more involved and "personal" in revealing the right requiem and entwining our path with theirs:

<> removal of instant defeat when trying requiem rune combinations unless none of the mods equipped is right /no mods equipped at all, in that case we fail the mission and lose transference to the defeated frame, with our lich evolving using its parts, this would be offset by being able to exclude 3 mods from the puzzle in a single mission and still be a very rare occurrence that helps establishing the lich as an actual threat for us personally. (obviously our downed frame wil be given "replaced" by the lotus/ordis wathever via email after being rebuilt, or we could choose to partecipate in a mission to recover it)

It feels cheap otherwise being killed by pure RNG and conflicts with the lore of tenno as unstoppable killers, enders of the orokin Empire etc.

<> Defeating the lich with an incomplete requiem could make it immune to it but still let us down it, for a time, with it reviving again and again (just like we do) and hounding and taunting us relentlessly for the entire mission, deliberately going after our target and trying to prevent us from accomplishing it,  until we complete our objective its interference make us actually fail or to flee, this would impress how these new enemies  are different than usual, that we can't trivially get rid of them nor that  we can afford to ignore them without repercussions.

<> Spy vaults in lich territory could offer information on requiem or give us information on the lich movements, in order to prevent incoming invasions or get informations on resourche depots, sensible targets to hit to cripple our enemy military effort, leading into cascading missions dedicated to raiding the lich treasure ships or storage depots, for profit or pure vandalism! Sabotaging a ship to suffer a catastrophic reactor meltdown or vent it's atmosphere and survive until we completely ransack its hold? (kuva in drops?)

<> Capture missions focus on our kuva lich lieutenants in an attempt to gather more information on its abilities and weaknesses (that should be initially unkown) and its main base "lair" actual location;

<> Defection missions would become their actual namesake, with rescued defectors contributing actual useful information to the player;

<> Option to buy information for reputation or favours (missions) from our allied syndacates, Maroo and Symaris, with hostile syndacates actively working to thwart us in our efforts (more interaction and conflict with syndacates as well please, this system is completely frozen and unchanged since inception)

 

> General improvements

--  Lich-related missions should have the potential for dynamic changes or additions to objective/s for more variability and unpredictability (like sometimes happened in regular missions with capture missions becoming exterminate etc the coding is already in place even if I havent seen it happening in mission in a while now): doing spy vaults we could  find the last one purged with a thrall on the run with the info we need - capture missions could be traps, turning into  survival, defense or exterminate, and so on. This would keep us on our toes and mybe help encourage generalist builds and frames over meta due to needing adaptability if a mission goes awry...

-- defeat in Lich-related missions should have consequences, like partially reverting progress in stopping an onging invasion in that sector, opening a new invasion! Getting our frame captured and locking it in an escape mission like the Zanuka Hunter one - make defeath interesting and a narrative chance instead of a binary win/fail switch

-- increasing enemy pressure tied with our progression in investigating our lich requiem, ramping up every time we test an improved combination successfully on the lich itself: 1 correct mod in the sequence, 2, 3 + 1or 2 mods in the right place, with maximum level of conflict when requiem is discovered and the enemies hunt the player relentlessly before he gets access to the Lich base for the final showdown.

-- need to find and breach our Lich main base to actually access the final shodown after an assault like mission! with the lich not permanently killable in other missions.

-- better srcipting for Lich in combat, use of abilities is damn random and ability set has no correspondence to parent frame

-- actual returns from defeating our lich besides weapon and ephemera to keep interest in the system

-- choice between murdering or converting our lich should net us the same immediate benefits, making the actual choice purely "moral" and reflecting on our "aligment" that's been neglected since "The War Within"

-- instead of getting converted liches to pop randomply in mission and being ineffective at it to boot, gave us their "specter" as tradable blueprint and/or reusable beacon, so we can choose to use it or not;

-- we kill our lich we get choice of two out built weapon, built ephemera, blueprint of their "specter"

-- we convert it we get choice of two out of  reusable "specter beacon" and its blueprint, blueprint of weapon, blueprint of ephemera

 

Everything I've outlined takes advantage of existing game mechanics and reuse existing assets in new ways, it would only need the necessary coding to tie mission cascades together in a campaign against the lich

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Ikusias
sorry I am unable to set font color to adapt for both white background and dark them background...

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

The fact that "Kuva Lich Territory" missions where you farm Thralls are separate from Fissures, Invasion Alerts, and Nightmare missions. The grind would be WAY better if we could get Murmurs while getting our Prime Parts and other stuff. Instead of making Lich Territory missions their own thing, simply combine it with whatever the mission normally is, kinda like how after a certain faction takes over a node - like when the Corpus take over Hydron - you don't get a choice there. This would both streamline the Murmur farm, and give you better incentive to deal with the Lich sooner rather than later.

Further Suggestions
-Allow Liches to level up and spread their territory on their own, not just when you fail to kill them. Maybe based simply on the daily reset?
-Allow Liches to go above Level 5, but rather than any plain level/stat increases, give them a new ability for each level over 5. These new abilities would either be pulled from random, or pulled from the Warframe you last failed to kill them with.

[Kaadu]

Lich Feedback after some more time with the system:
I've just finished lich 6, and after this one I'm just going to ignore them from now on until they are better integrated into the rest of the game.
I've only had 1 duplicate weapon, but the problem is when you go lich hunting, it's to the exclusion of everything else (except affinity, but nearly anything gives affinity). The weapons you get don't even add to your mastery without a 5 forma investment. So it's a huge stack of grind that doesn't feel worth the time.
Arbitration and collecting prime parts will still be my grind of choice.

I'm not sure how the thrall spawning works in lich missions, but I would like them to be based on time spent in the mission. With a limit on the number of thralls spawned by time so you don't stay forever.
It would give players on lich hunt missions a reason not to rush, just to aim to complete the mission by 5 minutes (or whatever the max time is). It would also standardise the murmur rewards for each mission type.
Defence-like missions should not allow the Lich to damage the objectives.
Fix the level 1 extractors in Lich missions. Super tedious.

Interface Suggestions:
Can you put the names on the requiem mods without having to hover over them. Like normal mods.
Also put names when you hover over the symbols on the Lich screen.

Can you show what you get when the convert or kill when you are making the decision?
Like I'm still not sure if you get an ephemara if you convert. Where does it say that? Actually where does it say you get their gun if you kill them? Do you expect new players to read the old patch notes? Or telepathically read the developers mind?
Here is a mock up

When fighting Liches, it would be good to let your teammates know what it's resistances and weaknesses are in the interface.
Weakness in green on the left, right for resistances and immunities. Like the Sentients.
Mock up picture

Progress Liches without playing Lich Missions:
Liches need to be able to be progressed without hunting them directly. So I can progress them slowly while I'm doing other things like Relics, Open World Rep, Arbitrations(?), Sorties.
At least thralls should show up occasionally in missions like the night wave bonus enemies. So occasionally you can go, 'Oh, bonus progression' swoop over and get some whispers and annoy your Lich. Then when they are annoyed enough, just go to a Lich hunt node to fight them.
  Make the Lich button on navigation glow when the are at max rage, so you can know when to queue up a Lich mission without needing going into the Lich submenu.
 
Ideally you could encounter the Lich when doing other things on their planet(s). Maybe on a time limit so you can just avoid them if you are with low mr players or don't have your best gear. One of the things with Shadow of Mordor was that you could encounter the orc bosses without explicitly seeking them out. Making them feel a little more autonomous.
 
You can still grind lich missions if you are specifically chasing the weapon. Or you can leave the lich in the background and do it 'passively' while doing other things.
Not sure if the lich hunt nodes being spread over so many systems is good in the long run. Especially once people have the guns and stop farming or you can get murmurs in other game modes. Maybe have a Lich node per planet that works like invasions, where the mission type rotates per planet over time. So you can gather players easier.

Theme:
Also, I think Rebecca mentioned in devstream you weren't going to go back to the Lich theme, but she only mentioned that they are keeping the password system. Which is fine. But please let the Lich die and revive when you fail the password (on levels under max).
Reasons for Liches being Liches:
  They are called Liches
  They mention how many times you kill them / harm them (except you don't)
  Liches killing you when you are 'winning' seems undeserved. They kill you because DE said so.

Reasons for Liches not being Liches:
  Don't need to make or code lethal failed parazon animations

I'm for Liches still killing you when you fail at their max level. Cause at that point they are just too strong for you and they can't level up anymore. Then it kind of feels earned for the Lich, they got killed 1+4 times and got tough enough to not die constantly as their reward.
I'd also enjoy you having to stab them three times each time. And not giving you what requiems were right or wrong until the end where the Lich dies to level up or kills you. You would get more chances at guessing the correct combination if you could scan all three slots each kill attempt. With the murmurs being a fallback method of getting hints.

Alternate failed parazon idea before level 5:
The parazon opens a wound on the Lich. The blood spray is thrown in to the air as the Lich collapses. The Blood in the air coalesces into a kuva cloud, which then flows back into the Lich, reviving it and giving it more power. The Lich floats up into the air and gathers energy as it levels up similar to now. As the Lich teleports away, the energy explodes, killing Tenno that are too close.
MS paint mockup
You can still die to a failed parazon attempt. If you stand too close to them and die to the explosion of their powerup / leaving.
An alternative animation when a Lich is vanquished, the blood splatter collects in the air as normal but then burns up. And then the Lich finally dies on the ground.

Personality Types / Variation:
Also Liches need more personality types. There only seem to be 2. The voice modulation helps a little, but when you encounter 3 players Liches in a row with the same voice lines you are stretching those voices a little too far (of course that could still happen with move personalities but it should happen less).

I think I've fought a Lich of every type. Which dropped my incentives to fight more liches since I've now seen it all.
Could each Lich inherit one ability from the warframe that spawned it? To provide more variety. This basically adds a new Lich version per Warframe introduced in the future.

[(XBOX)DarknessZeref]

So it's time to talk about converted lichs, since I have one now. Why did it spawn into T5 Kuva Survival at level 10? And I'm not going to say I counted, but it stayed for like 18s +or- 5s. 

I'm playing with a founding member and leader respectively in a clan run, mind you so we're talking about this. 

A War Story:
I'm staring at a level 127 corrupted eximus nullifier use it's bubble, then once I put it down a frost eximus corrupted heavy bombard threw up it's bubble saving them both. I got rushed by SOMETHING and took out the frost shield, only to be doing 2 damage with my Cudd Vohm Kuva Kohm, that's when I noticed the corrupted eximus ancients protecting everyone from behind the corner, in an extremely well-thought-out blitz on me. My teammates were elsewhere. This happened approximately 5 minutes AFTER my kuva lich appeared at level 10, using absolutely no abilities and doing no damage whatsoever, before unceremoniously (As my second in command describes) departing. 

Everyone was confused. None were impressed. Please fix.

[b4timert]

I have a old slow PC so i load slow. It had happened multiple times no were i load into mission on the other side of the map and lich spawn near host. Now i have to run toward my lich and beg them not to kill it. By the time i get there its been sent away. pls just make them invisible for a short time to give me to to get there.

 

and while im at it pls make defence objectives not be damaged by friendly fire when someone is under a rad proc.

Vauban's vacuum also put you for the full duration in it if the vauban has a rad proc when he used the move.

Edited December 1, 2019 by b4timert