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Ember's 1 seems to be entirely invalidated by her 4th ability. Or at the very least far too situational compared to her 4th ability.

It costs 25 energy to cast, and deals less than half the damage of her 4. Meanwhile her 4 costs 10 energy per enemy. 

Granted in most situations it would be more expensive to use her 4th ability because there will be more than 2 enemies that will be affected by it. However, It would still be more expensive to use her 1 4 times to hit 8 enemies than to just cast her 4 once and hit all 8 of them. 
 

Even in situations which her 1 is intended to be used (against generally 1-3 enemies at a time) you're still getting an astronomically larger amount of damage out of her 4, and assuming there's only 2 enemies you're consuming less energy.

I suggest either buffing fireball's damage to be on par with inferno, or give it armor stripping capability like her 3. 

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Although I like the changes to melee overall, what bothers me about the new melee rework is the focus on heavy attacks, despite them being even more useless than channeling was.

You see, heavy attacks have long animations and don't have any longer range than regular attacks have; they only do more damage. However, the effectiveness of your attacks in this game is largely dependent on your status procs (when using a status weapon) and/or your combo counter, when using a crit-based weapon build. A heavy attack has fewer hits, which means fewer possible status procs, and it even depletes your combo counter, making you lose your blood rush bonus. In other words, normally attacking is always more effective than using a heavy attack. It just slows you down, that's all. There's no reason for a player to use one. 

How do we fix this?

It's quite simple, really. Instead of heavy attacks providing a slow, more damaging attack, turn them into "special attacks". These attacks would have a very large range of effect and would have effects varying by weapon type. For instance, a dagger's special attack could teleport you to a certain amount of enemies in a certain range, performing a finisher on them, similar to ash's old bladestorm. The amount of enemies affected and the range would be dependent on the combo counter. On the other hand, a hammer could perform a very strong AoE knockdown, damaging enemies in a radius that depends on the combo counter.

That way, the meta would shift, making heavy attacks and their mods actually useful again.

Edited by lennieplop60
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Glaives in this new melee system feel hard to control and they're not performing well, and/or they're suffering from some bugs.

First off, was the target guidance cranked up to 11 for power throws? My glaives are flying in odd directions before hitting anything, sometimes not hitting any enemy at all. It's noticeable in missions, especially in arbitrations when I'm trying to aim for a drone. From testing, I realized it's just charged throws, normal throws are accurate and behaving. Also, when you use a glaive with a 1-handed secondary, you can still kill yourself with self-damage, which I thought was removed according to the patch notes? And again from testing, I realized even in the full melee mode I'm able to kill myself with the glaive. The patch notes said that was a thing of the past, right?

Orvius's unique suspension mechanic is no longer working when you're in the dual-wield mode with a secondary. Not sure if that's intended but I really preferred it when when you could just proc it without needing to switch into full melee mode then block+heavy attack button. I sincerely beg for that feature to be reverted to how it was: charged throw = suspension while holding a secondary weapon. This is a really significant nerf to a very unique and decently balanced weapon.

As far as the controls go, why can't I just hold E to throw my glaive once I'm in the full melee mode? Like, really, why do I have more options when also using my secondary? With quick melee I can swing, throw, and charge throw -- but while in full melee mode I can only swing and charge throw. Seems like holding E should be a normal throw in full melee mode too? Aside from functionality, I don't love having a separate button just to throw the glaives. Glaives still feel so much better when paired with a secondary.

Spoiler

Clip of my Glaive not following my aim at all while doing a charged throw. https://imgur.com/a/2eTevI8

Bonus clip of the same aiming issue in an actual mission, so this bug isn't unique to the simulacrum. https://imgur.com/a/yhKAKIp

Spoiler

Clip of me dying from self damage, from glaive explosions. 1h secondary + glaive. https://imgur.com/a/HYe96Xi

Clip of me dying from explosion damage while in full melee mode. https://imgur.com/a/qR4Flt8

 

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Rolling and Block-Glide unresponsiveness after Bullet-Jump. This bug was recently fixed before this update, but now appears to be back. After bullet-jumping with Melee equipped, the player cannot immediately Block-glide + Roll. These inputs don't respond until the Waframe model has finished it's "twirling" animation out of the bullet-jump. This holds back more advanced parkour, and hopefully it can be addressed soon.

Apart from that, update feels great. Good job guys.

Edited by Ofeban
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The heat proc changes have definitely made it leaps more useful than the old heat procs, and while the armor reduction is great I feel like the damage over time stacking is is still really underperforming when compared to other dots.

Other dots stack by having different procs at the same time which is great for burst damage at the cost of each dot having individual timers, while heat dots have the opposite effect of different procs contributing to a single dot with a single timer at the cost of the damage stacking being worse. This better for sustained damage but not practically, since extra heat procs don't seem to contribute much extra damage unlike other dots. I'd imagine this could be solved by just making extra heat procs add full damage to the dot.

 

Tldr heat is better than before but the damage over time aspect is still worse compared to other dots.

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Really enjoying the update. First and most important, first thing i did was get a vampire kavat! my Cat's an actual vampire 😄 this is great.

Also, as someone who's been playing since 2015 and has focused almost exclusively on melee (have been in fps clans in games etc before, guns put me to sleep now):

  • melee weapon damage changes: are awesome and are leveling the playing field against zaws (which were getting too far infront damage wise, now my Riven'd Karyst does 6.8k damage with madurai) and rewarding mastery (nikana prime does 178 base slash, which you're not getting out of a zaw)
  • Stance changes: having all of the combos change means having to relearn and several stances and combos on a few melee weapons have lost some of their most movement advancing combos (the double-spin with slam from Crushing ruin for example) however one of the greatest things about warframe is that you guys aren't afraid to make changes, and life is meaningless without challenge so having to relearn and find new combos and new favourites is interesting
  • Kuva Lich missions and interaction: are awesome too. It's really great to be able to find a decent challenge on more of the starchart without having to spend 30 mins in an endless mission to level the mobs up to the point where it begins to get challenging first and what's more that challenge gets better if you don't kill your lich with the right combination (i'm personally planning on intentionally using the wrong combo for aslong as i can to see just how high i can get the lich to go)
  • Lighting: looks great! Hydron is cool now with god rays in the ceiling and underlit platforms.
  • making Rivens more accessible: hallelujah! I hope nobody was actually paying the comedy Riven prices we were seeing in trade-chat but its great that something is being done to hopefully bring that down
  • Reducing the StandStillFrame by changing Embers WoF: thank god. "Oh i'm gonna have a great round... nope, there's a guy stood in the middle of the map not moving and killing everything with massive nukes" (which meant there was no point you being there other than to be someone's squad multiplier). The more that massive aoe powers can be changed to require movement and resource management so that 1 player can't ruin the game for the rest of the squad the better (making saryn's spores only work within 15m of saryn for example, or making it so that squad members can collect a pickup (like wisps motes) in order to opt into expanding another frames range on an ability etc)
  • bringing back fully equipped melee and manual block: i'm obviously all for that one
  • Changing the meta: thank god. It's a proper band-aid ripper when you know there's been problems and people have been forced to over-invest into a particular playstyle or weapon which means more people are going to have to make changes but its the best thing that could be done. The old meta shouldn't work in a new version of the game. Games don't survive by making people do the same forever, they survive by keeping it interesting.

 

(My current favourite gameplay is doing Kuva Lich territory missions (70+) mobs with a melee only arbitration build (Adaptation, QuickThinking, Rolling Guard) Ivara and a Blind Justice Nikana Prime (prowl only if reviving, get grenaded, get to 2hp, roll for invuln, heavy attack for health from lifestrike, slicey, slicey, did i say slicey? 😄 )

All in all, please keep up the awesome changes, and i hope a tide of butt-hurt doesn't make you roll them back.

 

 

Edited by Mahalleinir
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since this is a mindless mob/army-killing game and not a single-target big boss fight game e.g. dark souls where timing and hitboxes matter, all the effort put into all the different melee stances and different attacks is a waste. people will just use the attack that gives them the most damage, mobility and range (i.e. mob-clearing potential). why juggle and do complicated combos when most mobs will die with a good spin attack and the actual bosses that will survive more than a few hits are immune to crowd control? why waste time and make yourself vulnerable trying to melee combo one tougher enemy when a lvl 160 bombard is waiting to shove a rocket up your warframe's behind and a simple left-click with my arca plasmor is safer for me? it's almost like the game designer doesn't know how his own game plays and is putting in all this effort in something that is just fluff and doesn't contribute much to the average player's experience. worse, they've inadvertently nerfed melee compared to range weapons for higher level missions since it takes more than a few hits to kill mobs now and melee doesn't have the safety granted by distance. i would have welcomed the added complexity if this was a game where you need to carefully consider your moves in killing individual enemies, but for a game like warframe, it makes no sense.

also a more personal thing: i had a melee channeling build for solo stealth runs. now i have no way to make corpses i killed with melee disappear and i'm constantly losing my stealth combo bonus because some dumb mob spots a corpse i left behind and gets alerted before i kill it. now i basically have to sleep everything with ivara or equinox or run a silence banshee and shoot everything up before they wake up or recover.

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Please move Resource Drones to the top Navigation level with an icon like the Lich.

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Melee feedback...

Making 3x, 4x combo dmg multiplier worth nothing is not offset by a 60% base dmg increase on melee wepons...

Also,

Heavy attack yes take my 60*12%bloodrush buff for 1 hit... that'll never get used. about to rebind heavy attack to an input I don't have.

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Ok my thoughts on this update:

 

Positive:

  • Melee Range normalisatzion:
    • I like the fact that for example Venka Prime now have a higher range and hit more enemies. This feature i really enjoy because i can now use melee weapons that wasnt so useful as before the update
  • Melee spamming E:
    • I quite like the new "flow" of pressing E and W. Fast strikes and a good movement perfect for me since i never used stance combos tbh.

Neutral:

  • The new kavat:
    • Its ok tbh. I like the revive as mostly solo player but thats all except the good looking of the cat. The other skill with life replenishment is kinda useless since there are so many other ways to heal your cat more consistent.

Negative:

  • Kuva Lichs:
    • Ok these guys are a real big mess. Its grindy but i'm mostly fine with it except the "Murmur" farm. This takes to long. The fact that they steal loot hmm I have more than enough ressources tbh so i dont care about 100 Ferrit or something like that but relics or mods shouldnt be stealable at all. You farm for certain relics -> it gets stolen -> rage quit.
    • The fact that they appear in mission and you can't kill them but they can kill you all the time is bullS#&$. Make something like if you beat them and you dont interact with them they will flee from the mission. But the consistent fight all the time with no ending is just frustrating and for excavations its pure grief.
    • Their system overall needs i guess a lot of tuning and an option if you want one or if you dont want one.
  • Melee Mod nerfs:
    • Thats the biggest bulls*** of the update tbh. I liked Warframe for its melee fighting style since no other game i played got this feature in that way. And yes i like the color red and i like big numbers. But now ? It feels so bad to see my Amprex just tickeling the enemies wether its spin2win or normal attacks. Please revert these changes.
    • A solution for this would be a mix of the old system and the new -> movement range etc from the new system -> combo counter and mods from the old system = perfect and no need for melee 3.0
  • Catchmoon nerf:
    • I'm using a catchmoon but i'm using other side arms like Atmos or spectra vandal too but i dont get it why you have to nerf the catchmoon that hard. A slight nerf ok but why dont you make other side arms just better ? 90% you can dumb in the ton because they are just bad. Bad stats and/or bad shooting modes/other mechanics.
    • Take the Furis for example -> there is a mod with 20% life steal for it. This could be a top used weapon for some situations but what is 20% life steal if the weapon only deals 10 damage ? Sure you can nerf this aswell when you would realise that the weapon itself is S#&$ty and would need improvements but you dont realise that. You only look at usage-% that are out of context. For example 50% Usage for MR27 =/= 50% usage for MR14. Sure both are 50% but how many players are MR27 and how many are MR14 ? Please nerf the MK1-Braton then because 70% MR1 players use it. Stupid right ? But would make sense. 

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Ruinous Extension/Sinister Reach for Exilus? Feels like they should be when the Flight Speed mods are and they serve pretty much the same purpose.

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Give us the ability to check how many liches you have converted and the option to pick one of them for a mission or an item to call a lich (you choose one ahead of time) for a infinite duration for that mission till it dies and goes on cooldown. 

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Sarpa and Redeemer - revert to the old stance plz....quick rapid bunny hops makes me shoot all over the place instead of my target. Only 2 Gunblades, FYI Damage is frugal

Parazon -  Mods remove the 3 charges on them, grinding the mumurs is enough overkill already. The combinations tho is a neat mechanic.

Gameplay -  Rip long runs.

Lyp8Ung.jpg

 

 

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Please don't allow Liches to steal Void Traces or Relics. It's very bad and slows down the process of combating Liches. And it's already super-slow.

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Just bought a ayatan zambuka sculpture, but um.. even as a vitus sink, 2600endo with 1 amber/2 cyan or 450 endo without stars for 50vitus are too expensive?

With drop booster/resource booster i have to grind like 1 hours to get this thing, and without those... well i don't know, but maybe 2hour mark.

I think 1000 without stars, or even more than 2000 would be suitable, we can get anasa with 30 or less minutes of daily playing and arbitration drops lot of ayatans, i don't think we have much of spare stars to put on.

I'm not sure how this could affect ayatan economy though.

Edit; did bunch of arbitrations and realized vitus essence are now much easier to find, not only they are more visible and distinct from other items, looks like there is some kind of auto marking, this is great change, thank you.

Edited by Test-995

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8 hours ago, Ofeban said:

Rolling and Block-Glide unresponsiveness after Bullet-Jump. This bug was recently fixed before this update, but now appears to be back. After bullet-jumping with Melee equipped, the player cannot immediately Block-glide + Roll. These inputs don't respond until the Waframe model has finished it's "twirling" animation out of the bullet-jump. This holds back more advanced parkour, and hopefully it can be addressed soon.

Apart from that, update feels great. Good job guys.

agreed indeed. Great job DE, my respect has been earned, I'll try to be present in the forums as much as in-game unlike before where I was just in-game. What melee hero Ofeban speaks of is true indeed, would love a fix for it but overall excellent job. Loving melee more than ever for me.

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Getting stuck aimglide/blocking in midair and not being able to slam/heavy slam out of it can get you easily killed by bombards or whatever.  This overlooked loss of functionality needs to be addressed.

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2 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

agreed indeed. Great job DE, my respect has been earned, I'll try to be present in the forums as much as in-game unlike before where I was just in-game. What melee hero Ofeban speaks of is true indeed, would love a fix for it but overall excellent job. Loving melee more than ever for me.

The movement feels better in a bunch of small ways, I was honestly not expecting to be impressed this much. My Dark Split-Sword no longer lunges me forward(unless I want it to), and I have way more control in the air. As I said they had fixed that bug before, so I'm confident they can do it again. I just hope they notice because I'm always trying to RMB+Roll right after Bullet-Jumping - It lets you ride the momentum while curving yourself around walls and the like.

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14 hours ago, Xxx-Shinobi-xxX said:

Finally got into the "lets try and make a Kuva Lich area of this new content..
irritated would be the word I can think of.
So the text that a Larva was chosen, etc etc..
No marker on the map, No indicator, NOTHING. (Exterminate mission on Adaro, Sedna) try to kill everything I could find before I completed the mission 170+ kills for the exterminate....

and nothing.. saw the screen with the text saying they were removing him from the planet.
Talk about terrible. Great there is a larva, so where the _){#($& is it?????? if I spend the time trying to get one to spawn it sure would be +_)#($& nice to know where it is so I can kill it.

SO then I try on Telesto on Saturn, same result. I get 1 single blip ( I think I do), and bam nothing....
This is absolute garbage, and a waste of time if you aren't going to even bother to mark the larva once you were able to spawn it.

I feel like they ended up somewhere in the middle between making the mechanic clearly farmable and making it come automatically with normal game play.

I would have been fine with the latter, actually I very much favor integrating different goals and mechanics into one gameplay stream, but they wouldn't make the Kuva Larvling spawn in non-regular missions for some reason. It's like they wanted to force people who want Kuva Lich to concentrate on one thing, repeating regular missions until RNG blesses them with spawn. In any way they should have totally expected that to happen.

My proposal: at least to serve the patient players: make Kuva Larvling potentially spawn in ANY mission, so you can just go on with your life and eventually get Kuva Lich. It's not like the Wolf who could potentially mess up a mission.

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Hello,

I'll try to keep my feedback simple and right to the point:

1.Kuva Lich:

- Its a really nice addition to the game but the way of handling him is a bit too much. Having to die on a whim to discover if you have the right combination is bad choice since no one will attempt to take down his lich when they know they don;t have all their slot covered. Having to kill yourself in order to get rid of him during a closed mission like defense is really not fun.

 * To fix this simply remove the death penalty for player when taking down the lich or at least when you have one correct combination. Having at least one correct combination will make him flee but still get exp from you.

- Requiem relics - Give us more ways to get em or have kuva guards drop them from time to time.

** A cool addition to the Kuva Liches  would be a community wide nemesis ( Kuva Lord or something ) where the community works together to draw him out. Something similar to the acolytes.

2.Melee 2.5:

- Really nice work on the melee system but some stances need to be redone. Some animations are very clunky and others don't connect properly. To give an example, nikana Heavy attack, most of the time you miss because it goes right past the enemy or the claws lunge attacks. If you need a good example of heavy attack, the tatsu has best one

* A simple fix to this is to add tracking to heavy attacks. Other thing will be is to put a speed cap to some weapons in order to not break the animations or adjust  the speed to applied to only the swing and not the recovery/transition. Having your attacks sped up so much is annoying since you lose so much control and just jump over the place.

Edited by Shaden73
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"Combo" is not so much of a "resource" when building it however high only serves to deliver 1 attack - 1 slow, unweildy, short attack that does nothing but works against the very combo system that's required to scale extremely beneficial parameters with blood rush and weeping wounds (which btw the latter is bugged and doesn't work)

There are 2 reasons why heavy attack itself atm does not work with combo:

- You gain too little comparing to the benefits lost. Why should I give up my combo for 1 attack when keeping it lets me puke out streams of neverending crit. The obvious remedy is that combo should drain a fixed amount in order to perform a heavy attack. That way, they actually work together instead of against each other by allowing you choosing two things of equal value

- Heavy attack itself is weak. How can I tell? Well, my, it was you guys who left in these little weapons that allow us to test the heavy attacks to its limit: the bugged ones that does not drain combo on heavy attack. Namely, in my case, sigma octantis. And why, it's worse to spam 12x heavy attack than just to swing normally.
The very principle that explains this phenomenon is simple: Pure damage is worhtless in this very game when procs are the things doing weight-lifting. You're basically leaving it up to RNGesus to bless you with that wonderful slash proc that kills... 1 or so enemy. The root of the matter is because how you handled a goddamn core feature is to reskin a worthless feature from the old system then call it a day (charge attacks).

 

Heavy attack should mesh with the combo flow and allowed to be controlled at will at the cost of something equal, this way it can work seamlessly with everything else while also being balanced and powerful. Right now, a single, pure damage hit that cost too much and also interrupts your swordplay flow brings nothing to the table for us. And frankly, you should already knows that, afterall, if we had liked heavy attacks, the old charge attack meta would still be in fashion before this update because put simply, it's the same damn thing.

Edited by Lewdcifer

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On 2019-11-01 at 2:41 AM, Alejandrokek said:

You were supposed to make new challenging content, not a pain in the a**. Disabling abilities on a looter shooter game were you depend entirely on your resources that you spends hundreds of hours to get, and you take them away. Great, way to go. You still don't know the definition of challenge, and now it seems that you forgot the definition of fun too. What a dissapointment.

How are you going to create a "challenge" for people who have every content in the game in godlike status, can clear entire rooms of enemies with a single button press no matter the level and have at least a niche build for every situation without making it impossible to complete for the average player or without said niche builds.

The "definition of challenge" still applies for you to prove your strength, especially without all the top builds that can't be achieved by everyone. Taking away mods. operator etc. aka the aspects of the game that make you so strong, to actually make you use your brain and work together with a team is a good way to challenge you, the you who should be familiar with mechanics of this game and should know what is useful in such a situation. "Fun" is subjective for that matter. I've really enjoyed going through the survival with some friends of mine, especially because my Inaros wasn't just unkillable by default.

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When hacking a console with the parazon, it makes the screen shake once when jamming it in. Please let the option to remove screenshake actually remove the screenshake there.

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I'll try to keep this to Bulletpoints and simple.

1.Ember's rework hasn't really changed much of her kit only removed her afk farming ability.

her new fireblast does laughable amounts of damage now and no longer leaves the ring of fire to be used defensively  with a duration base instead a single fire dmg that adds a dot effect that anything above low level enemies will simply shrug off.

Her 2 while it does make her more survivable Adaptation does the same thing without the need for a bad meter gimmick.

her new ult. While it looks nice, does awful damage the fire spread works....hardly ever and does almost no damage. Yes it's nice fire now strips armor but if say we're fighting infested (you know enemies who are supposed to melt to fire?) and I have to cast the ult 2-3 times to kill mid level enemies...something isn't right. 

I'm not happy with those changes, I think she needs some additional tweaking.

2.Vauban's rework has accomplished essentially nothing.

Why does he still have a bounce pad? it's not funny, it's not useful we have parkour and other methods of movement. We got rid of super jump for a reason.

his new ult While I like it, doesn't solve the issue of why he needed a rework for so I'm half and half on this.

His new 3 the orbital strike. Cool looking animation, mediocre damage and slow cast time make this something I'll never use because why spend all that time setting that up (natural talent should not be a requirement to make an ability useful) when I can just shoot enemies and kill them much quicker?

his flechette bomb is incredibly inconsistent and 300 base damage is nothing and won't scale past low level.

3. The kuva lich system. Great concept. completely awful execution. This is RNG ontop of RNG ontop of more RNG. Grind for a relic (which might I add the lich can STEAL FROM YOU, you know the thing you need to kill them?) Grind for traces to refine the mod so the % chances aren't so awful, then HOPE THE THING YOU NEED DROPS oh yeah did I mention the drop chance of the relics being laughably low? 30% on normal missions. 100% on floods, okay too bad it's currently bugged but I won't peg you for that as You'll fix it. Raise the drop rates please. The parazon mods, Breakable? Seriously? after all that you made them consumable? (why not just wave giant signs saying THIS IS TIME GATING!) Then the salt on the wound for that, is you're selling them for plat. 🤣 I can't....wow.

That being said the kuva weapons. They're....okay. Not great. Forma dump clearly designed to get people to offload all the forma they've saved up or to get them to buy more. they have MR, that made me facepalm

4.The Melee changes.

This is a real mixed bag. The heavy moves are awful, a complete waste of time and effort and do so little damage it clearly wasn't tested enough to verify their validity. The new combo system is mixed as well. Some changes are great, some completely gutted some weapons. Gunblades for example.

The Stealth kill is now awful because it's tied to the use button instead of the quick melee, please either change that back or give us the option to rebind it ourselves.

CO is completely worthless now. So we're back to crit meta weapons. Brilliant. Maybe it did need brought down a bit, but this is a clear over nerf. the calculations now make it additive instead of multiplicative.

The changes to range are also incredibly mixed. Some weapons are decent some lost a lot of ground
 

>The zen nerf.

I don't even have anything polite to say on that so I won't but it's bad.

 

This update is a fail from my point of view. I've been considering taking a break for a while now and this did it for me. I've lost the desire to play this game. A lot of people on my discord servers agree there was a lot of missteps here.

I hope I didn't sound insulting in that as I know you guys work very hard and long hours. I have a lot of respect for your team and always have. Steve, Scott, Reb....all of you guys. Good luck but unless some drastic changes happen. I think after 4,156 hours of Warframe over the years. I'm out.

best of luck to you guys.

Edited by SergeiTheBeast
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