Melee nerfed a tad too hard

[Dharma-Beerlite]

Waiting heavy attack to life steal after 60 mins endless run is dead meat. I wonder they even try play melee past 60 or 120 mins to feel the pain without the old life strike. Reason for me to do longer run, players more likely to play as a team together due to harder spawns. Low lvl and easy spawn always find players running around doing their own killing away from team range.  which also made support frame such useless and boring. Most pri and sec weapons just useless passed 60 mins run. most time has to depend on melee to do late game killing. without the old life strike kill mass spawns the life support wont able to sustain the endless run..

[RX-3DR]

8 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

Push yourself beyond your limits, simply, cause no matter how much your damage scales to infinite, sooner or later you cant kill them because of their infinite scaling stats. The point is, this new systems lowers that limit a looootttt. If some players (aka customers) have fun in endurance runs, your part as services provider is to let them do it. If most of vets (aka customers) have fun this way, makes no sense to stop selling this product for them. Its like if you almost wanted to ruin your bussiness, i simply dont get it...

They can still push themselves to their limits. While everyone struggles at 100, you can push beyond 120 to prove whatever point you want in less than half the time it takes previously(Getting to 250, etc). Endless missions still exist and they still can try to do whatever silly thing they want for a 3 hour mission. It's almost as if the level numbers at this point are a numerical indication of ego rather than have gameplay value.

Edited November 1, 2019 by RX-3DR

[XzWasPzX]

Justo ahora, RX-3DR dijo:

They can still push themselves to their limits. While everyone struggles at 100, you can push beyond 120 in less than half the time it takes previously. Endless missions still exist and they still can try to do whatever silly thing they want for a 3 hour mission. It's almost as if the level numbers at this point are a numerical indication of ego rather than have gameplay value.

You have no right to judge how others play and choose to play, its not even polite. It's our freedom and our freedom is none of your bussiness. 

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

It's almost as if the level numbers at this point are a numerical indication of ego rather than have gameplay value.

[(XBOX)yepbeeble]

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Tested some weapons, seems like not all stances are finished either.

Twirling Spire for instance is the only polearm stance with a unique set of combos. The other two are identical and are even lacking the basic Forward+E combo. Twirling Spire does feel nice though. I have however gone back to other weapons that just feel alot more fluid since the changes while still packing some neat damage and having amazing area coverage.

Still need to test out more of the exalteds, have just given Wukong a spin and much hasnt changed for him.

Condition Overload took a beating, but it is still a good mod and there arent many other options to take its place in certain builds. I'll just keep running the heavy slash crit/status hybrid setup, I'll just move over to a different weapon class instead of my beloved polearms.

May I suggest the Venka Prime?

[XzWasPzX]

I'm finding 2 kind of answers to the infinite scaling damage:

1. Why do you want to play that silly way?

2. It's a nerf but it's coming in the next melee mainline update.

One of them have no idea what they're talking bout. Who?

Edited November 1, 2019 by XzWasPzX

[Cubewano]

15 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

Push yourself beyond your limits, simply, cause no matter how much your damage scales to infinite, sooner or later you cant kill them because of their infinite scaling stats. The point is, this new systems lowers that limit a looootttt. If some players (aka customers) have fun in endurance runs, your part as services provider is to let them do it. If most of vets (aka customers) have fun this way, makes no sense to stop selling this product for them. Its like if you almost wanted to ruin your bussiness, i simply dont get it...

If you scale infinitely there isn't a limit to push beyond, which has also been made clear by the growing complaints of a lack of difficulty in content for the game despite having infinitely scaling enemies, and the need to adapt boss designs to very structured and limited combat encounters so that they remain imposing and otherwise something to overcome. if the goal is a growing difficulty experience where the enemies do actually grow more difficult, giving players incredible self scaling only serves to impede in that experience, either by full on invalidating the ability for enemies to grow in a meaningful way, or merely by stunting how fast they grow to the point it takes longer than its worth for that experience to even begin. wanting to scale infinitely and also wanting challenge are two conversely opposing wants, they impede each other not facilitate. 

but from your currents wants it sounds like you might enjoy more or what is being done once you get past the sticker shock of it being a change.

[XzWasPzX]

Justo ahora, Cubewano dijo:

If you scale infinitely there isn't a limit to push beyond, which has also been made clear by the growing complaints of a lack of difficulty in content for the game despite having infinitely scaling enemies, and the need to adapt boss designs to very structured and limited combat encounters so that they remain imposing and otherwise something to overcome. if the goal is a growing difficulty experience where the enemies do actually grow more difficult, giving players incredible self scaling only serves to impede in that experience, either by full on invalidating the ability for enemies to grow in a meaningful way, or merely by stunting how fast they grow to the point it takes longer than its worth for that experience to even begin. wanting to scale infinitely and also wanting challenge are two conversely opposing wants, they impede each other not facilitate. 

but from your currents wants it sounds like you might enjoy more or what is being done once you get past the sticker shock of it being a change.

If this is the solution for the lack of difficulty then it's a bad solution. I thought they were way much more clever than this...

[Cubewano]

3 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

If this is the solution for the lack of difficulty then it's a bad solution. I thought they were way much more clever than this...

why is it a bad solution? how would you solve it better?

Edited November 1, 2019 by Cubewano

[BornWithTeeth]

“The game has no challenge to it! There’s got to be a solution.”

 

DE: “Ok, we’re gonna nerf the cheesy scaling damage mod combinations and make it harder to scale forever against endless missions. While we’re at it, we’re gonna rebalance melee as a whole so that there aren’t so many huge damage god weapons vs useless trash weapons.”

 

“...no, not like that.”

[XzWasPzX]

Justo ahora, Cubewano dijo:

why is it a bad solution? how would you solve it better?

It's not my job, nobody pay me for solving others issues. But take this for sure, I wouldnt have remove the infinite scaling damage, if i know certainly the players enjoy this. Maybe buff the enemies, change the way the procs affect them... there are many other possibilities than rage a huge part of your playerbase, most of them vets. Why are they even gifting a Legendary Core? Cause they know its a hard hit for the entire system. 

[XzWasPzX]

hace 1 minuto, BornWithTeeth dijo:

“The game has no challenge to it! There’s got to be a solution.”

 

DE: “Ok, we’re gonna nerf the cheesy scaling damage mod combinations and make it harder to scale forever against endless missions. While we’re at it, we’re gonna rebalance melee as a whole so that there aren’t so many huge damage god weapons vs useless trash weapons.”

 

“...no, not like that.”

Exactly. Keep thinking and tell me again when you have a new idea. 

[Cubewano]

Just now, XzWasPzX said:

It's not my job, nobody pay me for solving others issues. But take this for sure, I wouldnt have remove the infinite scaling damage, if i know certainly the players enjoy this. Maybe buff the enemies, change the way the procs affect them... there are many other possibilities than rage a huge part of your playerbase, most of them vets. Why are they even gifting a Legendary Core? Cause they know its a hard hit for the entire system. 

I didn't think it was, but a valuable part of criticism is providing means for improvement/explanations so that those critiques can be acted upon. Just saying "i don;t like it" isn't going to move a situation forward. That said, what is the difference between buffing enemies and nerfing us other than wordplay? How would you suggest procs be changed? Would you nerf them like what we have here, or buff them, and to what effect would that have on enhancing difficulty? What are these vast other possibilities? And how do you know how a huge part of the playerbase feels? 

[XzWasPzX]

Justo ahora, Cubewano dijo:

I didn't think it was, but a valuable part of criticism is providing means for improvement/explanations so that those critiques can be acted upon. Just saying "i don;t like it" isn't going to move a situation forward. That said, what is the difference between buffing enemies and nerfing us other than wordplay? How would you suggest procs be changed? Would you nerf them like what we have here, or buff them, and to what effect would that have on enhancing difficulty? What are these vast other possibilities? And how do you know how a huge part of the playerbase feels? 

Hey, you are asking me to develop a new difficulty system in a single post? Really? Why don't a new economic theory too? Im gonna blow up Keynes in 4 lines, for sure. 

Havent thought about this garbage until it was released, now I'm beggining to think, if I have a suggestion I will post it , here or in Feedback. So dont ask me to resolve this in a single post cause you know it's impossible. 

I know how many vets feels  cause i talk to them. Do you need anymore than that to find it out? I dont. 

[Aldain]

"It's not my job to give clear structured feedback on why I don't like something, me saying it is bad should be enough"

And that is how you get cakes with wood chippings instead of flour.

[XzWasPzX]

hace 1 minuto, Aldain dijo:

"It's not my job to give clear structured feedback on why I don't like something, me saying it is bad should be enough"

And that is how you get cakes with wood chippings instead of flour.

Also not being my native language, obviously. Mocking on people with complains wont help the game, you know that, right?

[Aldain]

Just now, XzWasPzX said:

Also not being my native language, obviously. Mocking on people with complains wont help the game, you know that, right?

I wasn't aware this isn't your native language, you're actually very good at communicating despite the language barrier.

But not giving a reason why you don't like something other than "I've talked to vets and know how they feel" isn't feedback, it is accumulating a mob and swaying by numbers rather than constructive reasons.

[XzWasPzX]

Justo ahora, Aldain dijo:

I wasn't aware this isn't your native language, you're actually very good at communicating despite the language barrier.

But not giving a reason why you don't like something other than "I've talked to vets and know how they feel" isn't feedback, it is accumulating a mob and swaying by numbers rather than constructive reasons.

I'm too lazy to write a post in a language different than mine, it could take much more than simply remind you that mockering on others its not polite. What i shouldnt have to remind you, but thats another story... If I have an idea I ll post it in the feedback threads, in spanish, and later in english if i have time enough. Do i have concrete complains? Yes i do, what i dont have is the competence to express those ideas in detail in another language. 

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

1 hour ago, XzWasPzX said:

Push yourself beyond your limits, simply, cause no matter how much your damage scales to infinite, sooner or later you cant kill them because of their infinite scaling stats. The point is, this new systems lowers that limit a looootttt. If some players (aka customers) have fun in endurance runs, your part as services provider is to let them do it. If most of vets (aka customers) have fun this way, makes no sense to stop selling this product for them. Its like if you almost wanted to ruin your bussiness, i simply dont get it...

Why is lower limit so bad?

If there is a limit still there it can still be pushed. Pushing it further takes less time. That's gotta be a good thing, surely?

And seems like limit could only be pushed with melee (and a very limited set of melee too). Now limit can be pushed with more melee weapons AND guns too. More options. Again, gotta be a good thing, surely.

Ultimately, there's something else you're not telling us I suspect.

Edited November 1, 2019 by (PS4)drpunk-yo

[MasterSZwabster]

I tried new melee and its very bad, new combos are annoying and its just much weaker. They just made bad weapons viable and overall nerfed everything else

Edited November 1, 2019 by MasterSZwabster

[XzWasPzX]

Justo ahora, (PS4)drpunk-yo dijo:

Why is lower limit so bad?

If there is a limit still there it can still be pushed. Pushing it further takes less time. That's gotta be a good thing, surely?

And seems like limit could only be pushed with melee (and a very limited set of melee too). Now limit can be pushed with guns too. More options. Again, gotta be a good thing, surely.

Ultimately, there's something else you're not telling us I suspect.

I'm not telling you my name? My postal code? My country? My identification number? Cause i said everything else xD

[MasterSZwabster]

There is more options and pushed limit? What? XD its not some anime where with screaming you can kill enemy 10x times stronger than you

Edited November 1, 2019 by MasterSZwabster

[IntheCoconut]

7 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

I'm not telling you my name? My postal code? My country? My identification number? Cause i said everything else xD

I think that the problem stems from people not understanding how the melee system negatively impacts your enjoyment.

First, people need to understand what you are trying to achieve with endurance runs. Why is it fun to you? What, specifically, do you enjoy about endless scaling? Answering these questions can help us understand your point of view.

From there, you can identify how the melee changes impact you. How are the melee changes taking away what was fun about endurance? What specifically has changed that makes it less fun? Simply saying "I can't scale infinitely" is true, but doesn't help us understand what that means. Help us understand why it is important to you, and others, to scale infinitely. How is that making the game fun for you?

Disclaimer: To be clear, I am not asking these questions to criticize your method of fun; I am asking these questions to better understand why you don't like the changes.

[SneakyErvin]

34 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

I think that the problem stems from people not understanding how the melee system negatively impacts your enjoyment.

First, people need to understand what you are trying to achieve with endurance runs. Why is it fun to you? What, specifically, do you enjoy about endless scaling? Answering these questions can help us understand your point of view.

From there, you can identify how the melee changes impact you. How are the melee changes taking away what was fun about endurance? What specifically has changed that makes it less fun? Simply saying "I can't scale infinitely" is true, but doesn't help us understand what that means. Help us understand why it is important to you, and others, to scale infinitely. How is that making the game fun for you?

Disclaimer: To be clear, I am not asking these questions to criticize your method of fun; I am asking these questions to better understand why you don't like the changes.

And one should also remember a very important thing. Balancing has never had absurd endless runs in mind. Rewards are based around A to C, in some modes the scaling happens quicker but also only really intend for someone to stay an hour at most, like arbis that have a new mission pop every hour. So people should really look at what strength is actually needed for the intended time on those specific missions. If the weapons and stances can do well up to an hour in arbis then they are good enough for the game, because everything beyond that is personal preference and a matter of choice, outside of the balance scope.

And people shouldnt be too quick to judge this early on, because several stances seem to miss out on several simple combos, while other stances have them and just completely destroy content.

[BornWithTeeth]

I do have one criticism of the melee rework, and it’s that Heavy attacks are sloooooow. Busting out a heavy attack is hilarious in that whatever enemy gets hit with it is probably not the enemy you were aiming for when you started the windup for it.