Red crits nerfed hard on melee(?)

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I have never owned maiming strike in my 3 years of playing. I loathe the tactic and am glad that it is atleast dead.

But. We’ve lost a noticeable portion of damage output, condition overload is now completely useless, Melee combos have lost their damage multipliers, numerous weapons have gone from top choices to below second rate. Heck Wukongs Staff is now back to being a garbage exalted.

And for what? A useless heavy attack that’s only there to completely drain your combo counter? A lifted effect that’s just Titanias terrible zero G Ragdoll?

I’m sorry but these are not buffs. Melee as a whole as regressed and I hope that the changes we see over the next month rectifies these mistakes.

Oh God, after watching a few streams, melee's overall damage seemed to be gutted. It's taking YouTubers with perfect builds ages to kill enemies. I really don't want this to come to console in it's current state. Melee 2.999 (AKA The Melee Purge) can stay on PC. I don't want it. Here's DE "balancing" the game again by making all weapons in a category suck rather than making the ones that suck up to par. At least this is what it looks like so far.

[(PSN)funboxer84]

1 hour ago, XzWasPzX said:

I never used maiming strike, except when I first got it and tested. It was booooring as hell xD Now i feel lucky, dont miss it at all. 

I've used maiming strike depending on the situation. I've done test with and without, and it can be helpful in disruption when you get knockdown and somehow lose combo and you need to take out the Demo quick in seconds while he is right by conduit. Usually 2 or 3 quick slide strikes killed them. When I didn't have it on, I would see a difference and wouldn't be able to kill it as fast with no combo. So it had its uses in emergency situations. Can't wait for phase 3, fixes and the new "Rage Mode".

Edited November 1, 2019 by (PS4)funboxer84

[Sohaya-]

4 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

But. We’ve lost a noticeable portion of damage output, condition overload is now completely useless

Its not capped.

I hate to correct people on this but well its a very sizeable boost still.

4 hours ago, ToaTamatu said:

I see some people mentioning maiming strike in the thread. That's one mistake i did make, because i never got myself to get a maiming strike, so i can only speak for br and co. 

What I will say is this, that MS playstyle was very damaging to the game.
What this melee 3.0 change brought, however, is that now all melees will be worse off by a lot and people are just not experienced enough to see that yet. All dmg numbers, cc and sc's along with ranges were buffed on weps and that's what people see. They were all compensation buffs though:

• dmg buffed to make up for loss in crit dmg due to less frequent crits, and to make up for co's nerf
• cc buffed on some weps, because if they weren't almost no melee could reach good crits with this new bs system thanks to nerfing blood rush (and maiming as well, but that should die anyway)
• sc buffed to compensate for c.o. nerfs
• ranges buffed to make up for completely destroying long range weapons, and to make everything more universal in range (which is a terrible idea btw)

Truth is, we lost a lot mroe than gained. Again.

People see all the buff numbers and think this is good, melee is better. But let me tell you, stances feel more rigid now, you are a little bit more locked into your animations. Even with fully dedicated builds (those take a large amount of farming to even get the endo, wepons, and mods for, which many forget) a lot less melees will be able to crit reliably. Status weapons got it worse though i feel like, as this hard cap now removes the remaining bit of originality that melee builds had: You could use your primaries, your frames' abilities or an other type of method to creatively put some extra statuses on an enemy so that CO will stack better. Now that it is capped at 3, the creative aspect of figuring out how to put more stacks is gone, all you are left with is a mod that is almost as dumb as if it was a flat dmg increasing one.

All this is coming from someone who actually uses melees almost constantly, although I don't have much experience in using whips or maiming i will give you that. What i see in many that defend these changes is that they don't have the insight to be able to realise how DE has shuffled the cards now and screwed everyone over again.

CO is still uncapped, it's just additive.

[Sohaya-]

3 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Oh God, after watching a few streams, melee's overall damage seemed to be gutted. It's taking YouTubers with perfect builds ages to kill enemies. I really don't want this to come to console in it's current state. Melee 2.999 (AKA The Melee Purge) can stay on PC. I don't want it. Here's DE "balancing" the game again by making all weapons in a category suck rather than making the ones that suck up to par. At least this is what it looks like so far.

Two week rebalancing period. My favorite combo feels better so im not complaining yet but well hopefully the wrongs are righted.

That said I only use sword and board and the telos boltace now because, well, reasons. Making the combo benefit regular strikes would be much better.

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb ToaTamatu:

Now that it is capped at 3

From reading the patch notes it's not capped, but the calculation changed. There is a spoiler in the patch notes showing the multipliers before and after the update, both for up to 7 statuses applied.

[schilds]

People are still using the builds they had prior to the update, many of which are probably no longer optimal. Need to try some new builds first.

[BlackVortex]

7 hours ago, ToaTamatu said:

Thank you for numbers checking.
I used a few 24% cc weapons, the 26% galatine prime and war, then moved onto a 29% territory. Guys above 30, while noticing a lot of reds, felt weaker as well, maybe due to them only reaching the first level of reds unlike before. Weapons I tried this with under 20 cc could barely hold oranges.

Even the 26% guys could only red crit around half the time with all the possible red crit mods and mod sets on them, which is ridiculous.

yep because you dont reach those high level red crits anymore

Edited November 1, 2019 by BlackVortex

[(PSN)Eluminary]

Paracesis with blood rush hits red crits pretty easy I got a 129 dmg 1.5 range 62 status chance riven this with prime reach it's most 8m range after about 8x red crits start and by 12x it's almost all red.  it's my go to so far.

With the new range system it might be worth looking around for weapons with 5 disposition and trying to get really high range on them.... High range you hit more stuff and Max your counter faster for red crits.  Still more stuff to look at, but it's definitely not dead.

 

[Jarriaga]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Eluminary said:

Paracesis with blood rush hits red crits pretty easy I got a 129 dmg 1.5 range 62 status chance riven this with prime reach it's most 8m range after about 8x red crits start and by 12x it's almost all red.  it's my go to so far.

With the new range system it might be worth looking around for weapons with 5 disposition and trying to get really high range on them.... High range you hit more stuff and Max your counter faster for red crits.  Still more stuff to look at, but it's definitely not dead.

 

That's in line with what OP and others have noticed. Paracesis has base 31% crit chance. You start seeing red crits at 30% base with Blood Rush (It no longer uses total crit).

That means that, only a few select weapons can reach red crits, and only the first tier considering you still see orange crits.

It also means that if you had rolled a riven for crit chance so it can scale off Blood Rush's former calculation based on total crit, that stat is now useless in your Riven as it is ignored in the calculation.

[Frostyinferno]

10 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I have never owned maiming strike in my 3 years of playing. I loathe the tactic and am glad that it is atleast dead.

But. We’ve lost a noticeable portion of damage output, condition overload is now completely useless, Melee combos have lost their damage multipliers, numerous weapons have gone from top choices to below second rate. Heck Wukongs Staff is now back to being a garbage exalted.

And for what? A useless heavy attack that’s only there to completely drain your combo counter? A lifted effect that’s just Titanias terrible zero G Ragdoll?

I’m sorry but these are not buffs. Melee as a whole as regressed and I hope that the changes we see over the next month rectifies these mistakes.

This is the thing that hurts most. Wukong became my favorite frame after the rework. Now his Iron Staff is weak enough I don't even feel like playing Warframe at this point. 

[(PSN)Eluminary]

1 minute ago, Frostyinferno said:

This is the thing that hurts most. Wukong became my favorite frame after the rework. Now his Iron Staff is weak enough I don't even feel like playing Warframe at this point. 

Condition overload is still nice the thing that hurts wukong staff imo is it's range is only 3 m base and since you can't get a riven for it 6 is the max range for it his exalted staff should be the highest base range in game(long range staff is supposed to be his thing)but it's not not even that now.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

Its not capped.

I hate to correct people on this but well its a very sizeable boost still.

CO is still uncapped, it's just additive.

WTF does “The Damage is not capped” mean?

And that’s such a huge nerf to condition overload it’s not even worth using anymore. Condition overload is what pushed Status into be definitively good on melee. So blood rush crit builds with Corrosive and heat are likely just going to become to new meta. But that new meta is significantly weaker than the previous one.

Also the Condition overload nerf as rendered Wukongs staff useless. It can’t use blood rush, combo is gone and exalteds weren’t given any damage buff to compensate. If it still had CO it may have been fine but now? No, absolutely not. This is the worst melee Rework in the history of all melee rework.

[Sohaya-]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

WTF does “The Damage is not capped” mean?

And that’s such a huge nerf to condition overload it’s not even worth using anymore. Condition overload is what pushed Status into be definitively good on melee. So blood rush crit builds with Corrosive and heat are likely just going to become to new meta. But that new meta is significantly weaker than the previous one.

Also the Condition overload nerf as rendered Wukongs staff useless. It can’t use blood rush, combo is gone and exalteds weren’t given any damage buff to compensate. If it still had CO it may have been fine but now? No, absolutely not. This is the worst melee Rework in the history of all melee rework.

Condition overload is additive but there isn’t a hard cap of 3 statuses. Correcting facts.

It still goes up very high. Just correcting facts.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

Condition overload is additive but there isn’t a hard cap of 3 statuses. Correcting facts.

It still goes up very high. Just correcting facts.

Yeah it goes up at a fraction of what it used to and doesn’t calculate with the other stats that boost damage. Just saying “it’s additive” doesn’t suddenly make the nerf not terrible.

[Jarriaga]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So blood rush crit builds with Corrosive and heat are likely just going to become to new meta.

Nope.

Blood Rush was hit 10 times harder: It no longer scales off total crit, but rather base crit. That means that only a very select number of weapons will be able to even reach tier 1 red crits.

If your weapon doesn't have 26%+ base crit you can forget about constant red crits. Not even a Riven with Sacrificial True Steel will help.

Condition Overload, even as it currently stands, is a Godsend in comparison.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Jarriaga

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

Nope.

Blood Rush was hit 10 times harder: It no longer scales off total crit, but rather base crit. That means that only a very select number of weapons will be able to even reach tier 1 red crits.

If your weapon doesn't have 26%+ base crit you can forget about constant red crits. Not even a Riven with Sacrificial True Steel will help.

Hence why I said the new meta is going to weaker than the old meta.

[Sohaya-]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yeah it goes up at a fraction of what it used to and doesn’t calculate with the other stats that boost damage. Just saying “it’s additive” doesn’t suddenly make the nerf not terrible.

Ok

[Jarriaga]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Hence why I said the new meta is going to weaker than the old meta.

Blood Rush can't compete in the current meta. At all. At least I'm easily destroying level 165 Corrupted Heavy Gunners and Bombars in simulacrum, but full crit BR builds can't get anywhere close.

[Frostyinferno]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Hence why I said the new meta is going to weaker than the old meta.

This is the thing that is super frustrating to me when it comes to the responses of this board. Yes, certain weaker melee weapons are now better than they used to be. That's good. But overall, Melee is just weaker now. These meta mods likes Condition Overload, Maiming Strike, and Blood Rush that some people on this forum are celebrating the death of were mods that pushed melee into being a viable alternative to gunplay. Now, with the heavy-handed nerfs to them, melee can't keep up like it used to. Overall it's just very disappointing.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Blood Rush can't compete in the current meta. At all. At least I'm easily destroying level 165 Corrupted Heavy Gunners and Bombars in simulacrum, but full crit BR builds can't get anywhere close.

You’re really hung up on me mentioning blood rush. Whatever the new meta, whatever mods we have to use now, it’s going to be worse than the previous.

[Jarriaga]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re really hung up on me mentioning blood rush. Whatever the new meta, whatever mods we have to use now, it’s going to be worse than the previous.

I am hung up because even after the CO nerf, it is still useful for content under level 200. Blood Rush was hit harder. Significantly harder.

DE said they increased CO base buff to somewhat compensate the potential damage that was lost even if it's not even halfway there. BR on the other hand doesn't feel like it was compensated in any way for this nerf.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

I am hung up because even after the CO nerf, it is still useful for content under level 200. Blood Rush was hit harder. Significantly harder.

DE said they increased CO base buff to somewhat compensate the potential damage that was lost even if it's not even halfway there. BR on the other hand doesn't feel like it was compensated in any way for this nerf.

Please read WhiteRoses multiple comments saying CO is not additive not multiplicative like it used to be. That “Compensation” doesn’t do squad when it’s increasing damage by a fraction of what it used to.

Blood Rush atleast still functions like it used to. You wanna say it’s worse than before I 100% believe because EVERYTHING is worse than before.

[Jarriaga]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Please read WhiteRoses multiple comments saying CO is not additive not multiplicative like it used to be

I am aware it is no longer exponential.

Still able to easy kill level 165 Corrupted Heavy Gunners and Bombars even if you will have problems past level 200.

Blood Rush on the other hand already has problems with those enemies now. That's what I mean with lack of compensation.

11 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Blood Rush atleast still functions like it used to.

False:

1) Old Blood Rush used your total crit chance, not your base crit chance in the calculation. Adding Sacrificial Steel and 150% crit chance via a Riven will not help as they are now being ignored in the calculation.

2) You hit the 12x // 222 hits combo cap in 30 seconds with no further scaling beyond that.

Blood Rush was hit significantly harder than CO because even though CO is not doing even 1/10 of the damage it used to, it still kills level 165 heavily armored enemies appropriately. BR can't do that anymore. It struggles with level 120 Corrupted Heavy Gunners. It can not compete as it currently stands. Either the base buff value needs to be significantly increased, or the combo counter cap needs to be increased so it can grow more, or the calculation needs to be reverted back to total crit so it can scale closer to what CO currently is.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Jarriaga

[TronionX]

basically everything except blood rush got a buff but just the blood rush nerf is enough to make melee at the very least feel weaker than before i'm not 100% certain but i think that my damage overall hasn't changed that much but no longer seeing those tasty red numbers hurts.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I am aware it is no longer exponential.

Still able to easy kill level 165 Corrupted Heavy Gunners and Bombars even if you will have problems past level 200.

Blood Rush on the other hand already has problems with those enemies now. That's what I mean with lack of compensation.

False:

1) Old Blood Rush used your total crit chance, not your base crit chance in the calculation. Adding Sacrificial Steel and 150% crit chance via a Riven will not help as they are now being ignored in the calculation.

2) You hit the 12x // 222 hits combo cap in 20 seconds with no further scaling beyond that.

Blood Rush was hit significantly harder than CO because even though CO is not doing even 1/10 of the damage it used to, it still kills level 165 heavily armored enemies appropriately. BR can't do that anymore. It struggles with level 120 Corrupted Heavy Gunners. It can not compete as it currently stands. Either the base buff value needs to be significantly increased, or the combo counter cap needs to be increased so it can grow more, or the calculation needs to be reverted back to total crit so it can scale closer to what CO currently is.

It sounds like we just need to go back to Melee 2.999999