Bloodrush Over-nerf

[Test-995]

6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Its not just 165>60%, its 165% of your total crit chance per combo to 60% of your base crit chance per combo.

oh wait, so sacrificial steel is practically worthless now...

[Skaleek]

1 minute ago, Test-995 said:

oh wait, so sacrificial steel is practically worthless now...

All crit mods and damage mods other then CO and BR are outclassed, correct. Will probably need to be revisited by DE.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Skaleek

[Xolgys]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb RedDirtTrooper:

I'm talking about melee doing a pathetic fraction of the damage it used to while simultaneously having every crit mod that isn't blood rush and every damage mod that isn't condition overload made completely redundant as well as pole arms and whips having their range nerfed so badly that some heavy swords now out range them.

ur aware that by complaining like this u might provoke a change to bloodrush and true steel/sac. steel -> buff to true steel numbers and hence sac. steel and hence rivens, nerf to blood rush again so that it only really works well on combo builds, for instance true steel 90%, bloodrsuh 40%.

this is basically what ur asking for because theres no really easy way to solve the redundance-issue without totally reworking bloodrush by itself. if its supposed to stay a crit chance multiplier based on combo counter then the only real solution would be a change in numbers again.

seeing previous comments i dont think ppl would like another nerf to bloodrush, right ? true steel could use a buff, 60% is just pitiful, but if this issue with the crit chance mods is to be resolved then in my opinion the easiest and fastet and probably best way would be chaning numbers again, meaning either overbuff true steel to high heaven, which wont change considering its the basis for rivens and sac. steel, or my example numbers above.

condition overload, ppp and rivens work pretty great together tho, 2 base dmg multipliers arent really problematic, a 3rd is also still fine scaling wise and CO scales naturally so we'll take it. its not like u waste all mod slots on ur build for +damage with its diminishing returns without anything that actually calculates with the modified values...so theres not really a reason to complain unless u want to see a nerf here and a buff there which would prolly result in more or less the same thing.

[RedDirtTrooper]

2 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

ur aware that by complaining like this u might provoke a change to bloodrush and true steel/sac. steel -> buff to true steel numbers and hence sac. steel and hence rivens, nerf to blood rush again so that it only really works well on combo builds, for instance true steel 90%, bloodrsuh 40%.

this is basically what ur asking for because theres no really easy way to solve the redundance-issue without totally reworking bloodrush by itself. if its supposed to stay a crit chance multiplier based on combo counter then the only real solution would be a change in numbers again.

seeing previous comments i dont think ppl would like another nerf to bloodrush, right ? true steel could use a buff, 60% is just pitiful, but if this issue with the crit chance mods is to be resolved then in my opinion the easiest and fastet and probably best way would be chaning numbers again, meaning either overbuff true steel to high heaven, which wont change considering its the basis for rivens and sac. steel, or my example numbers above.

condition overload, ppp and rivens work pretty great together tho, 2 base dmg multipliers arent really problematic, a 3rd is also still fine scaling wise and CO scales naturally so we'll take it. its not like u waste all mod slots on ur build for +damage with its diminishing returns without anything that actually calculates with the modified values...so theres not really a reason to complain unless u want to see a nerf here and a buff there which would prolly result in more or less the same thing.

It makes absolutely no difference to me because melee is now completely useless for anything that I cared about using it on. Catchmoon is the new melee for me and anyone else who enjoys min maxing and efficiency. My complaint is entirely about the change to the way these mods are calculated. I couldn't possibly care less about what numbers they slap on them at this point. No tweaks to these new, inferior, formulas are going to have the slightest effect on how I feel about them. 

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

You know True Steel is only 60% right ? The problem is not how they nerfed it, it's the mod existance.
Why does melee mod should have insane value stacking with time ? Bloodrush is +720, Weeping Wounds is +480%, Conditon Overload is Primed Pressure Point at 2 status and grow stronger, it make no sense...

In the current sitatuation, status oriented melee weapon are not good, because with the +480% from Weeping Wounds, you can reach 100% status with only 17.2% base status chances. It clearly show how broken is the system.

The problem is enemy scaling, but that aside, even current 60% would be ok if it actually worked of ones total crit chance instead of working like true steel.
The numbers are ok, its place in the calculation isnt. Same as current CO (tho if current CO went to its correct place its value should go down back to 60 if not 40, but as currently just be additive to itself instead of multiplying the total modified damage each time including its own damage boost). Hell if it went back to correctly modifying total crit it could even be 50% for a max 600% and it would still be fine because it wouldnt invalidate other crit chance mods existing via massive diminishing returns of having more than 1 crit mod (which unless you cant put on BR will still be BR).

[lukinu_u]

il y a 27 minutes, Andele3025 a dit :

The problem is enemy scaling, but that aside, even current 60% would be ok if it actually worked of ones total crit chance instead of working like true steel.
The numbers are ok, its place in the calculation isnt. Same as current CO (tho if current CO went to its correct place its value should go down back to 60 if not 40, but as currently just be additive to itself instead of multiplying the total modified damage each time including its own damage boost). Hell if it went back to correctly modifying total crit it could even be 50% for a max 600% and it would still be fine because it wouldnt invalidate other crit chance mods existing via massive diminishing returns of having more than 1 crit mod (which unless you cant put on BR will still be BR).

Enemy scaling is not a problem at all. Enemies over level 130-150 aren't supposed to exist, the problem is people who think playing survive mission past 60min is normal and complain about "broken scaling" while this infinite scaling is there to encourage peoples extracting with "insane difficulty" rather that hard cap...

[BiancaRoughfin]

Personal Opinion:

No, the Nerf wasnt bad as i used to get 494.3% Crit chance with my Zaw Dagger at 3x which took me over 130 Combo points to reach, now i can easily get 12x Combo multiplier which sends my Zaw Dagger's Crit chance over 600% Crit chance and i do over 70K Red crits with it and easily passes the 1.3KK Crit with Exodia Contagion.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 13 minutes, BiancaRoughfin a dit :

Personal Opinion:

No, the Nerf wasnt bad as i used to get 494.3% Crit chance with my Zaw Dagger at 3x which took me over 130 Combo points to reach, now i can easily get 12x Combo multiplier which sends my Zaw Dagger's Crit chance over 600% Crit chance and i do over 70K Red crits with it and easily passes the 1.3KK Crit with Exodia Contagion.

Does Exodia Contagion now consider Bloodrush, Weeping Wounds and Condition Overload ? If yes, it's definitely a huge buff to that arcane, that were already strong.

[BiancaRoughfin]

1 minute ago, lukinu_u said:

Does Exodia Contagion now consider Bloodrush, Weeping Wounds and Condition Overload ? If yes, it's definitely a huge buff to that arcane, that were already strong.

From what i remember at least Bloodrush it did as it used the weapon's Current status when the projectile is fired. Never tested with Weeping wounds and/or condition overload but i believe they affect too.

[Ghosty-Jr]

I agree that blood rush needed to be brought down to less insane levels but DE have now cut off a rather legitimate way of going on endless runs because of this. Now the only truly scaling damage comes from octavia and dont get me wrong she is an amazing frame but at the same time now I cant choose a warframe and build up strength with any melee I choose and thats dissapointing

[Fallen_Echo]

20 hours ago, Midas said:

I think there are two perspectives at work here.

People that would like the game to become balanced around the levels they were meant to be played at. This would make our game a bit more difficult than we are used to as well as requiring us to put more effort in. This would also make raids more difficult and make it an actual game rather than a damage and farming simulator which Digital Extremes seems to be moving away from for now.

Then there are people who like the game for its ridiculously unbalanced damage system making them feel like a demigod. This is usually for people that want to play warframe without difficult and are here just for fun.

Both are acceptable outlooks

But for me and others that I have seen on this forum is that were split in half on deciding what we want.

I am all for this new re balance for future content while others are for power tripping farming fun.

The forums is going to be a battle zone between players for the next few weeks 😕

You know even if i want to move away from the power fantasy we have, the game is fundamentally a NON-COOP game.

We have teammates but we dont give a damm about them, even in my early days where i actually struggled to kills some boss and all the people around me were similar newbies it was like this, no coop at all. We were just 4 guys in a shared instance shooter, but there was no actual coop.

 

Take a look at KF2, its a coop pve shooter and every time a player sees the mobs swarming into a big group of players they concentrate their fire there because losing players can end the run, in Risk of Rain 2 people make loot share strategies, in Realm of the Mad God people try to play according to their roles and support the mass of the players.

 

In warframe none of this happens, regardless of how good or weak the players most dont give a damm about supporting the team. Just think about the recently buffed elemental augments, they were all changed to affect the caster too and not just teammates because previously no one would touch 'em.

 

I had 2 complaints about what you said in your original comment, one is that the power fantasy aspect holds a lot of people here and the second is that our coop simly doesnt work.

[Midas]

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

You know even if i want to move away from the power fantasy we have, the game is fundamentally a NON-COOP game.

We have teammates but we dont give a damm about them, even in my early days where i actually struggled to kills some boss and all the people around me were similar newbies it was like this, no coop at all. We were just 4 guys in a shared instance shooter, but there was no actual coop.

 

Take a look at KF2, its a coop pve shooter and every time a player sees the mobs swarming into a big group of players they concentrate their fire there because losing players can end the run, in Risk of Rain 2 people make loot share strategies, in Realm of the Mad God people try to play according to their roles and support the mass of the players.

 

In warframe none of this happens, regardless of how good or weak the players most dont give a damm about supporting the team. Just think about the recently buffed elemental augments, they were all changed to affect the caster too and not just teammates because previously no one would touch 'em.

 

I had 2 complaints about what you said in your original comment, one is that the power fantasy aspect holds a lot of people here and the second is that our coop simly doesnt work.

Disagree with your second complaint, I have a massive clan family that works together. We have a lot of fun cleaning each other’s lich infested planets and gathering knowledge on the current update. We also do teaching seminars for building etc...

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Midas said:

Disagree with your second complaint, I have a massive clan family that works together. We have a lot of fun cleaning each other’s lich infested planets and gathering knowledge on the current update. We also do teaching seminars for building etc...

I regularly help newbies too but in the avarage mission on warframe theres no teamplay, we are just a bunch of guy put into the same instance. IF DE could create specters what have the capatibilities of a good player i dont think i would ever touch the public button again because its pointless, the same interaction i get from 90% of all my rounds is already there.

[ecc29]

DE did a very bad job in nerfing blood rush. It's overkill. Blood rush is not like maiming strike. Many players, especially low mr players dont have maiming strike, their melee weapon builds are heavily depending on blood rush. This over nerf makes melee more difficult for low lvl players.

[devox15]

On 2019-11-01 at 11:20 AM, lukinu_u said:

You know True Steel is only 60% right ? The problem is not how they nerfed it, it's the mod existance.
Why does melee mod should have insane value stacking with time ? Bloodrush is +720, Weeping Wounds is +480%, Conditon Overload is Primed Pressure Point at 2 status and grow stronger, it make no sense...

In the current sitatuation, status oriented melee weapon are not good, because with the +480% from Weeping Wounds, you can reach 100% status with only 17.2% base status chances. It clearly show how broken is the system.

This is exactly true. Why do weeping and bloodrush even exist? So obviously busted. 

[O.X.N.E.E]

On 2019-11-02 at 1:36 AM, Skaleek said:

This sums up the major flaws i've seen with melee in this update as well. Whips having less range doesnt really make any sense, they already got the maiming strike knocked right out of them. Spinning is no longer effective so this just feels heavy handed.

I agree, first range then maiming strike then bloodrush, man this is bad "Rip [ctrl] + [E]"
i just wish they bring it back. things is getting out of hand, we want old blood rush back why cant they just limit the combo when you use that mod on your builds,
umbra mod doesn't work on weapon that wasn't made for, i just missed my Galvacord spinning. i hate to say but whips are trash now, they are designed to spin not fuqing causal spam E to win.

[Temp950]

the nerf to blood rush is pretty terrible. Blood rush might have been overpowered, but it also allowed lower tier weapons to be used effectively. With this last update my ninkondi prime with a crit damage + base damage riven has trouble as early as sortie 3 against infested enemies. It was kind of ridiculous before to get red crits on every hit at the 2x combo, but now at 12x all i get are orange hits. This change does two things. One it makes the combo counter too valuable to waste on heavy attacks, and I haven't used those once i realized how pointless they are. The second is that it discourages switching between weapons, because that combo counter takes a lot of time to build up compared to before. Oh sure, you can get it to 4x or so faster than you could before, but this crazy nerf to blood rush means I don't get a single orange crit until 6x, and even there its less than 10% of the time.

I'm not sure if blood rush is bugged right now, but it seems to be going off base crit chance rather than your modded one like it did before. this added to the 105% nerf  to that has made it so much weaker. 

[AshenHaze]

My Jatt Kusar 😞 ...

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

Orange crits are the new red crits 

[Twilight-Knight]

It doesn't matter bloodrush is helpful as it was, because their new combo gauge it will be hard tokeep it maintance without sacrificingother mods configure. Especially for weapon have low riven disposition.

[GammaRamma]

On 2019-11-01 at 12:53 PM, RedDirtTrooper said:

It makes absolutely no difference to me because melee is now completely useless for anything that I cared about using it on. Catchmoon is the new melee for me and anyone else who enjoys min maxing and efficiency. My complaint is entirely about the change to the way these mods are calculated. I couldn't possibly care less about what numbers they slap on them at this point. No tweaks to these new, inferior, formulas are going to have the slightest effect on how I feel about them. 

Okay, but what do you mean? Melee is more useful and efficient than it's ever been (with the exception of fists), and no amount of blabbering is going to change that fact. Unless you've been using melee weapons to scratch your ass or something, I can't see (without actual numbers) how you could possibly come to the conclusion that they're 'useless,' even if it's only for what you use them for. That's a gross exaggeration and a disservice to the substance this update brings in general. You don't even need Rivens to tap into how ridiculously overpowered even the crappiest melee weapons have become as a result of the reworks.

Edited November 8, 2019 by GammaRamma

[Genoscythe]

One hour arbitration survival is still easy at this point, does anyone have info how it performs on 3hr+ runs?

[z3us32610]

On 2019-11-01 at 4:12 AM, Xydeth said:

that nerf is glorious and was overdue. it was a bad idea to give bloodrush the broken math it had but sadly people got so used to it that many seem to not be able to play anything else in terms of melee.

thats how it shouldve worked in the first place....

 

Agreed. While there are definitely tweaks to certain weapons that should be made, I feel like melee weapons in general are WAYYYY more balanced than they were. Like you said, this was long overdue. 

Melee is still really strong and powerful, but no longer is it superior to ranged weapons in every way. Melee is supposed to be risk v reward - deadly but risky. There was zero risk before melee phase 2 rolled out mainly because it killed faster than any other option.

And while I lament the fact that blood rush doesn't scale with modified crit chance (mainly because of it's impact on rivens), melee overall is in a much better place, and I am very happy with it.

At least those are my takes on it.

[Xolgys]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb z3us32610:

Melee is still really strong and powerful, but no longer is it superior to ranged weapons in every way. Melee is supposed to be risk v reward - deadly but risky. There was zero risk before melee phase 2 rolled out mainly because it killed faster than any other option.

some melees are more powerful depending on how u build. i basically always built the old fashioned way: a well working elemental/physical combination...so basically never IP but slash and depending on what the weapon was able to really "abuse" the right element with enough damage/crit to support status chance and the selfsustain of dps it provides. even before condition overload that worked, even tho it was more limited but since condition overload and melee weapons have more innate status chance than they had years ago its become easier to make many melee weapons work. it was just more difficult before condition overload or status chance 15%+ was more common. a big change were the 60/60 elementals, but condition overload just offered an alternative which also had silly scaling to rival combo crit...but if combo crit had never been so broken condition overload couldve been what it is today and be totally fine an strong, because even stacking +melee damage is worth it WHEN/IF someone has enough elemental damage to actually scale off of it. when someone only uses base dmg +combo mods and cant really abuse the increased scaling on elementals then sure, stacking +melee damage is less valuable after lets say 2 mods having or maybe even putting CO instead of PPP on a weapon with super high status.

personally i made the experience on the builds i run that PPP +Co +melee dmg on a riven does still work super well and many melee weapons are much stronger. of course someone who has gotten used to combo builds might disagree but in my opinion building for the right elemental combinations and abusing strong melee stances and their forced proccs is more fun than just slapping on the regular combo mods and never caring about stances/combos. the current state of melee encourages combos/stances much much more, which is understandable and the more fun way to have melee in the game and the "oldfashioned" builds are really really powerful now, whilst the broken ones have gotten nerfed rightfully so in my opinion.

[RedDirtTrooper]

2 hours ago, GammaRamma said:

Okay, but what do you mean? Melee is more useful and efficient than it's ever been (with the exception of fists), and no amount of blabbering is going to change that fact. Unless you've been using melee weapons to scratch your ass or something, I can't see (without actual numbers) how you could possibly come to the conclusion that they're 'useless,' even if it's only for what you use them for. That's a gross exaggeration and a disservice to the substance this update brings in general. You don't even need Rivens to tap into how ridiculously overpowered even the crappiest melee weapons have become as a result of the reworks.

"Useless" is hyperbole, I'll give you that. The reality is melee does a fraction of the damage that it used to, although casual players running star chart trash will indeed experience most of these changes as a benefit. Yes, for the weapons that didn't get their range massively nerfed, the range normalization helped them. The problems are that all critical chance and damage mods have been made completely redundant to BR and CO due to diminishing returns, while simultaneously locking any weapon without decent base critical chance and moderate status chance out of contention for true late game viability. Basically, melee got even better at handling content that was already completely trivial, while taking a massive nerf to its viability when content starts to become non trivial, and in addition whips and polearms had their base range set to values that are much too low, sometimes out classed by heavy weapons that are blatantly shorter than them physically. They are supposed to be less damage spread across a larger area, but currently do less damage across less area. In addition, the main gimmick of the update, heavy attacks, just doesn't really work that well, in my opinion.

If you don't see any problem with these issues, then I'm not going to change your mind, but there you go.