Yeah no.

[Hyroncore]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Gaz, also a friend of mine, has suspended his video production and game play after testing this update. Plz check his announcement. 

Sigh why did people come here trying to suggest I look at videos? I searched youtube watched videos over the past month from all the top search result channels not just the ones search showed but went into individual channels. This isnt about promoting individual channels or listening to more opinions this is about trying to create a dialogue not about the issues presently faced but those in some cases in the very near future and how we as a community combined with Digital Extremes can make this game beyond incredible

 

1 hour ago, Tinklzs said:

Then you have others that give criticisms and valid opinions/fixes and are ignored (i.e butchering his name here, ratehlius) he considers the vauban 'rework' exceptionally underwhelming.  No excuse from DE on that one to drop the ball.

While I see your point, hard to produce content on a game that doesn't receive updates.. consistently.  I mean, before The Old Blood, what exactly would you be able to report on besides the odd weapon or frame being released with many weeks, possibly months of no video uploads in-between?  Not everything has to be strictly professional, every partner personality has a finesse that appeals to a demographic of Warframe's community. Some like Rathelius, others hate Shy, some like lifeofrio etc.  It is what it is, and trying to alienate or assimilate them into something they aren't, might end up backfiring harshly.

I'd argue this isn't true, it's mainly psychology but bear with me here. 

There are a few forms of content, the kind you do over and over and don't care of the reward. 

Then there is content that you do solely for the reward. 

While there are other niches and slight addons (playstyle, warframes, weapons etc.) everything can fall in to one or both categories. (I enjoy survival and like kuva, so kuva survival fits in both, as an example).  I think the problem here is some are entertained by doing the same thing for nothing, killing time. Others want something to do that is beneficial, making plat, unlocking something new. But the only 'infinite' source here that matters for those things are kuva/endo, or relics if you want to change things up. 

Some players won't care about vauban/ember reworks, so to them they didn't get content in that regard. Others who care about those frames got content. Some care about endurance, others don't go past sortie level. Warframe has a very broad demographic of players that it interests, but the depth of each 'style' of play varies greatly. If you're here for scaling rewards for example, wanting to test yourself but also be rewarded for it - few things do that (as an example).

 

I would say that warframe has enough depth for a few dozen hours of each 'category', but beyond that, it's per person dependant. I 100%'d fortuna, did k-drive, done achievements, did the orbs got my ephermas etc. Friends of mine didn't get to the 2nd orb, definitely didn't touch k-drives etc, because that isn't fun to them. 

In my opinion, one of the safest ways of making what I call "generalized content" (appeals to broad range of players), is something that is varied enough to not be predictable, something to come back to that won't be too difficult to remember if you've taken a break, but is fun and gives worthwhile rewards.  DE could take it a step further by having players start at different 'tiers' depending on what they want. Start at 20-40 for "casual" players who just want to experience the content, 60-80 for more focused players who want a bit more to deal with, and 100-120 for more veteran/geared players. Make a couple prestige rewards that look nice to entice players to go out of their comfort zones (say get to 150lvl enemies for a unique syndana that isn't a 17th copy of something we already have).  

As a sidenote: One reason why I enjoyed raids back in "the day" in WoW was because you could run the raid if you enjoyed it, if you wanted to gear your character or if you wanted to push yourself (heroic), then they had specific achievements with unique rewards (mounts, pets, etc.) some harder than others to "show off". I think it would be a wise thing to make more unique cosmetics to help keep players invested in new gamemodes or activities. What sucks is when the gamemode isn't fun and doesn't give very good rewards (defection), or doesn't give worthwhile rewards but is fun (disruption).

 

I hope you understand my point though, hopefully I can bring more examples later (3am). 

Now this is why I made the post!!

I can agree with a few points you made about general content versus targeted aka wow raids with cosmetic and mount options as a good comparison but I want to counter that.

I played WoW for 15 years and not once in those 15 years did I as a casual player find myself positively benefiting from the "discussions" on forums which provided insight into what a small portion wanted. While I can see your issues that is far less of a concern given the fact there are 2 big issues at play as follows:

1. Warframe is F2P WoW is Subscription based.

This creates a dilemma not only for the developer but for the community that surrounds Warframe as they are trying to and often failing to balance content output versus quality. Before the inevitable quote spam stating that skins and such are not content they are. They are created to drive interest and in the case of Tennogen by people like Hitsu San Faven and others who see the huge potential for the game. What  we need to do is stop being angry and provide coherent thoughts as you have but not just comparing two games and saying that WoW had a better experience and leaving it at that. We need thematic ideas that fit into what Warframe is and from Digital Extreme's end they need to be more visible in interacting with the threads and not just the repetitiive nerf this buff that on suggestion forums but dig into forum threads like this and find the gems that hide there shared by the few remaining engaged players.

2. Content is not coming as quick as we might like (Paraphrasing your initial paragraph)

This is highly unfair again due to the size of the team when you compare it to the team that worked on WoW:BFA. I have noticed this cycle for 4 years that Warframe end of year sees a huge drop be it mainlines PoE or Fortuna and people are unhappy with the countless frame and weapon drops and primes etc in the 11 months between. This is highly unfair and if you were to compare that update cycle to the one for WoW particuclarly when you compare changes such as Solar 2.0 Melee 2.0/3.0 and the WoW graphical overhaul/stat crunch updates you look close enough you see a far more fast paced cycle for Warframe then what was once the biggest subscription based game 

As for the content being over reported I have no sympathy. There are many games out there with much less that have less complaints pegged at them. As for content I have not seen several ideas that people in other game communities did at similar times of drought. I point you to many many machinima created using an external program and the vanilla and TbC clients that content creators used to create movies using ingame animations etc. Sure one could argue the legalities and I have been personally trying to engage in accessing legally available models and tools that I could use to create similar content for Warframe but this is a mere example. For streamers there are few who actively go into region and recruiting to pull pubruns together in part due to badly handled moderation that stifles such community events. If we as creators had a genuine lack of content then I would see the arguement as fair but for the above reasons one which requires a point of clarification and possible chat COD update and added channel to do viably I can not fathom nor accept the "there is nothing to create."

[Ryim_Drykeon]

Addressing a few points in random order (apologies, still on first cuppa this morning).

 

Content Drought: There is no "content drought".

While I agree that content is slow in coming, there is an immense amount of it in game. Those here for years, myself included, may perceive a lack of content due to the time between major updates. Long time players that have completed everything are not going to be held in check long by any update. Those that complain about "lack of content being added" are really wanting an entire new game, which is a unrealistic expectation.

New players will actually be overwhelmed by the amount of content. The "grind wall" a lot of new players see is what scares them off. It's not actually a grind wall, but an immense amount of things to do that take time. Unfortunately, the new way to look at anything these days is "I want it now!".

 

Creator Content: Quite frankly; find what you like and forget the rest.

Many Creators on youTube just plain suck. Not everyone has what it takes, and then there's that old adage "You can't please everyone.". There are tons of good Creators out there, however, so saying that there are only a bare handful is as baseless drivel as some of the vapid youTubers that put out that misinformation and idiotic memes. Many creators use the memes and jokes and other corny aspects because today's viewers have the attention span of a brain damaged butterfly.

So find the creators that appeal to you, and then deal with all the dross left over like the rest of us do.

 

Critics / Feedback: I have actually stopped with this. Why? Because I have typed out long, detailed posts explaining what I felt was wrong, along with ideas on how to fix it, had many chime in with agreements and adding to the discussion only to have the entire thread removed because someone posted something against the forum rules.

The Forums are an abysmal place for Feedback. If a person tries to have an adult discussion, it soon degenerates into mud-slinging and memes. If DE truly wants feedback, then that category should only be able to be viewed by DE, not the frothing masses.

To be clear, I'm not blaming the moderators, nor their actions. Blame rests solely on those that simply post to troll, or to derail threads intentionally.

However, DE has been, and is today, intensely sensitive to criticism that paints them in a bad light. While understandable (they are human after all), I find it unprofessional. I know of three separate content creators that have been un-partnered because of it. They did so in a professional, factual manner, but were removed for "reasons".

 

Warframe Community: For the Community to grow, or have any actual impact, it would need a Community Manager, as well as a decent sized team dedicated to just that. No game developer does this. Some try, but all fail to allocate the proper resources to this immense undertaking. Running the game's community is actually about the same as developing the game itself. However, unlike the game, the community doesn't generate a revenue that the bean counters can see, so the corporate suits and investors won't authorize what could skyrocket their company's profits. A game loved by players, will be played by players, which will bring in revenue. Until common sense is a bullet point on corporate resumes, games will never do as well as they actually could. Not for the players, and not for the bottom line.

[Tinklzs]

On 2019-11-02 at 10:17 AM, Ryim_Drykeon said:

Critics / Feedback: I have actually stopped with this. Why? Because I have typed out long, detailed posts explaining what I felt was wrong, along with ideas on how to fix it, had many chime in with agreements and adding to the discussion only to have the entire thread deleted because one moron posted something against the forum rules.

Which is one of the main reasons why I don't really bother with posting ideas or give feedback much anymore for any games I play. Developers rarely listen anymore, and if they do listen, very rarely do they give exactly what you requested, normally it's a frankenstein'd version of it.  

We want somewhere else to farm kuva!

Disruption rolls around with diluted loot tables and the kuva is meh in quantity.

We want endgame content and something to do that is worthwhile!

We get Old Blood, neat concept but absolutely abhorred delivery. Doing missions for no other reward than to get 'murmurs', dying to an invincible gimmicky enemy (similar to gimmicky boss mechanics in WF), all for mediocre not even meta tier (or unique really) weapons who's normal counterparts aren't anything to get excited over anyways.  Could've been done so much better while still taking up a bunch of time, but still with more respect to the player.  Obviously, this is to help take a bunch of time to 'distract' the players while they get other content out, but it does so in a manner that is insulting.

#1 Old Blood is all about kuva, yet we get no kuva for farming for 'murmurs', that should change. Give kuva (roughly that of a siphon) for each murmur and that's a step closer to fair. Then at least it feels better to do it because we're getting something out of it. One of the main reasons I do kuva survival is because I'm getting survival rewards (endo, relics) AND kuva. 

#2 Drastically decrease the amount of 'murmur's needed to get a word. Even if you take each letter out of the poem per word, you need more than is offered - which is backwards. Should be 1 finisher per word at the very least, in my opinion.  No need to drag this out longer than it has to be, taking the fun with it.

#3 Add large Kuva/Endo rewards, and maybe some unique worthwhile mods, as 'endgame' rewards after the player's have gotten the weapons, to keep them coming back. And the quantities of kuva/endo would be equivalent of 3-4 hours (in that ballpark) of kuva farming with a booster on, since you're taking that amount of time anyways (at least) to find/kill the lich.

On 2019-11-02 at 10:17 AM, Ryim_Drykeon said:

Warframe Community: For the Community to grow, or have any actual impact, it would need a Community Manager, as well as a decent sized team dedicated to just that.

Sad, but true.

 

On 2019-11-02 at 10:17 AM, Ryim_Drykeon said:

. However, unlike the game, the community doesn't generate a revenue that the bean counters can see, so the corporate suits and investors won't authorize what could skyrocket their company's profits. A game loved by players, will be played by players, which will bring in revenue. Until common sense is a bullet point on corporate resumes, games will never do as well as they actually could.

Exactly, even with the idea I posted above, I'm sure someone in a suit (or even a dev) would freak out. Yet if you give the player what they want, while setting reasonable limits, everyone wins.  If DE decides they want players earning 20k kuva an hour, spread that across the board with all missions that players want to earn kuva in, and sprinkle in some unique primed mods in there that we don't have yet. Not only would they look better for appealing to the players, but also the corporate investors and end up making both happy. 

Instead they do it half, obviously putting limits, not giving what we want, and in the end no one is happy - and that goes for quite a few things, I just stuck with the kuva example because it's simple.

[Tinklzs]

7 hours ago, Hyroncore said:

1. Warframe is F2P WoW is Subscription based.

However, even though I haven't played since WOTLK, I know that players can 'purchase' the subscription tokens with gold, similarly to how we trade for plat without spending real money. Someone had to pay for it - but it doesn't necessarily have to be you.  Sure, skins are used to get hype to the masses and bring some attention to Warframe, but I still agree with the idea that they aren't content. In the words of the Late and Great John Pinette, "Salad isn't food, salad comes with the food. Salad is the promissory note that food with soon arrive".   I can understand the perspective of players who come on forums to vent, and I agree, there is a difference between venting and constructive criticism, and some don't see the difference.  

7 hours ago, Hyroncore said:

2. Content is not coming as quick as we might like

You bet it isn't, or the content that we do get is focused on something that could've waited a bit longer.  Personally, I'd rather have older content get a good facelift than new content that needs a facelift on launch. Examples being defection, orokin derelict that could have major improvements done to breathe new life into them and make them worthwhile, be it changin the loottables a bit, adding a few new warframe quests to them (why did they remove those.. seriously?), or something else. While I've said it before, for you, I'll say it again. Hildryn, Garuda and Baruuk should have quests, all linked (like revenant) to Fortuna to different areas of the map that obviously had a major event happen, but with no explanation. Like the top left of Fortuna (near where you fight the Exploiter Orb) is an orokin structure, destroyed and decayed - could've been a warframe having a land stand here protecting something *cough cough quest cough* but we'll never know.  Large arch that at the end of it leads to the old fortuna (and the exploiter orb fight) first thought was a concealed orokin portal, nope, just a near arch - another wasted opportunity.

7 hours ago, Hyroncore said:

This is highly unfair again due to the size of the team when you compare it to the team that worked on WoW:BFA.

I understand you mentioned WoW:BFA because I mentioned WoW, but I did so for my familiarity with WoW WOTLK, not due to development team size.

DE currently has 310 employees as of 2018 according to Wiki, Bethesda Softworks in the same timeframe had 400. Look at them, they created 2 mediocre games in the span of 5 years.

DE isn't a small company, not anymore, but they aren't a large one either. I'm not heavily critical on how they allocate their resources because we don't know how they allocate them anyways. But that isn't the point, even if they were putting 80% of their resources behind new updates, they still make simple mistakes that requires immediate hotfixes, and if they don't get hotfixed get forgotten about. That's unacceptable in any capacity.   

Like I mentioned in my post above, if they're struggling to create content that kills player's time long enough to get the next update out, they're doing it wrong.  To paraphase, buff loottables for things that need it quantities or less dilution give rewards worth the time investment. If I can make 2500 kuva from a flood or 1200 from a siphon, don't give me 200 for a bounty in PoE, especially when the former is effected by boosters and the latter SOMEHOW isn't?! Players will notice inconsistency and point it out, which is what is happening here, DE is trying to find ways to keep players in a 'barrier' of sorts. Don't want them getting too much power, kuva, resources, but of course - like a kid, players want more and more and more.  

Another case and point, disruption when it came out, players wanted another way to farm kuva and thought disruption would be a good mission type (I agree it would be), but DE eventually added it, but the quantities are diluted by other rewards that you can get (hexacons, meh relics etc.). Vastly lowering the amounts of kuva you get. 

Yet previously between floods/siphons and kuva survival, they did it correctly. The average per hour for flood/siphons is similar to survival - the difference is preference, do you like endurance or brief missions, pick your poison. When they shoe-horned kuva in with disruption/PoE, it's more of an insult rather than 'ooh kuva', because the amounts are so.. pitiful.

If you do rewards correctly, and make a fun mission on top of that, the game plays itself, if you make a fun mission type (imo, disruption) but have bad rewards, then players take notice, and no matter how fun the mission is, if a reward focused player isn't getting what he feels is his 'due', even if it's par for the course (what other game modes have done, ie flood/siphon/survival) then you've failed designing the rewards properly. Pretty simple from my perspective (and I'm looking at it as if I was a developer, but also a player too). 

[Hyroncore]

Yikes haha the last 3 replies are incredible yet massive going to need time to respond.

While I agree there is more to be done from their end isnt it up to us as the community to be able to voice these concerns loudly enough while being smart enough not to engage those who seek to derail or troll?

I will be having a bigger response just wanted that out there initially.

[HolySeraphin]

On 2019-11-01 at 12:25 PM, (PS4)segulibanez65 said:

So more thought-crime punishment... Seems reasonable, lol

Though I do agree some of the partners seem to be spiteful at this point, and that is just not helpful to anyone.  Totally agree with you there.

Some partners are pure hate at this point. 

I believe that complaining about the lack of changes and content is fair, if made properly, but just saying that DE is not making enough won't help anyone. There was a partner that while he recognized the abandoned game modes, he tried to understand how and why this happens, which is fair and might help both players and devs get some insight on how things work. After all, recognizing a problem is the first step to solve it, but understanding it is essential too.

But there are some...cases where the content they deliver is just hateful, and they even state that they are barely playing the game anymore, even when there is a huge content drop. So it is quite unfair to say "Content drought" 5 days after a huge update, when you didn't even check what changed. These types of partners don't deserve their status, since they're not creating proper content. For me a partner should always do the following:

1: Play the game and the updates.

2: Review the game, changes and updates.

3: Give feedback, criticizing bad things and suggesting improvements.

But those who only complain and only focus on the negative, even overblowing them, should be removed from the program.

Edited November 8, 2019 by HolySeraphin

[(PSN)segulibanez65]

Is *** still a partner?  For some reason I thought he quit, but maybe Im just thinking of him moving away from covering WF.  I've always been torn on him... I can get behind some of what he has to say, but I'm not a fan of his attitude and the way he dismisses those that don't agree with what he thinks the direction should be (even if I kind of agree with the direction he proposes).  The last few vids I've seen of his he seems better, but at the same time states that he "doesn't care, the game is for casuals" (paraphrase) and in the next breath saying he's only harsh because he wants to see the game succeed so he kind of contradicts himself from what I've seen.  Though I don't watch enough of his content to really know what's up with that guy, so I try to just remain as neutral on him as i can.

As for R******, I know he can be harsh, but you can tell he genuinely loves the game and wants to be a part of the community, at least imo.  He's mostly fair in his criticisms, which does seem to be his main focus as a partner: a critical channel that tries to give constructive feedback, and I definitely think that is fair and serves a needed function.  His sometimes long absences are understandable too, as I believe he is in the military.  

Edited November 8, 2019 by (PS4)segulibanez65

[HolySeraphin]

Hm... I changed my comment because of the "no name and shame" rule on the forums. thing. But I guess I was too late. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by HolySeraphin

[(PSN)segulibanez65]

2 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Hm... I changed my comment because of the "no name and shame" rule on the forums. thing. But I guess I was too late. 

 

Oh, didn't know that applied to partners... Want me to see if I can delete your quote?

Edit: I removed your original quote just to be sure. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by (PS4)segulibanez65

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, (PS4)segulibanez65 said:

Oh, didn't know that applied to partners... Want me to see if I can delete your quote?

Edit: I removed your original quote just to be sure. 

Yep, applies to partners.

Moderator said "Removed posts referencing some partners in particular.

I remind you all that we have a strict "no name and shame" rule on the forums.""

[(PSN)segulibanez65]

Just now, HolySeraphin said:

Yep, applies to partners.

Moderator said "Removed posts referencing some partners in particular.

I remind you all that we have a strict "no name and shame" rule on the forums.""

Oh, well I better just remove my post then, lol.  Thanks for the heads-up!