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On 2019-11-01 at 5:41 PM, ant99999 said:

Which is fair. The most proper way to make weaker weapons relevant is to make goddamn balance patches.

No, it's not. Weaker weapons are weaker not because they're badly balanced, they're weaker because they're intended for low-level players. They're the iron short swords of Warframe, you're meant to move on to better stuff. You can't buff them to 'fix' late game balance without throwing early game balance out of whack. The point of rivens is to eventually allow you to go back to using crappy early-game weapons that you liked for their looks or handling without suffering from their lack of power. It's supposed to work like this:

Early game: Use crappy weapons because you don't have access to anything better.

Mid game: Use powerful weapons because you need the extra punch.

Late game: Use whatever you want because you can bring even crappy weapons up to par with the good stuff.

That's the theory at least. How well it actually works in practice is debatable, personally I think strong weapons benefit too much from rivens and weak weapons not enough, but the point is rivens do have a place in the game and a legitimate reason to exist.

Edited by SordidDreams
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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Lucas Jameson said:

Wait, what? What did they do to cc on rivens?

It's no longer part of the Blood Rush formula. It now scales based on base crit. So rolling a riven to make a weapon go from 15% crit to 30% crit before Blood Rush makes no difference.

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7 minutes ago, Shadowhaunt89 said:

Showing up like the assassins is a horrible idea. With the lich only being killable if you have the correct 3 requiem mods that means you can be going along in a mission and have something you can't get rid of chasing you around. I can see a load of situations where that results in mission failure over something you have no control of nor recourse to solve.

Yeah, and that would be a nice change of pace from the usual "everything before me melts into goo in less than a second" gameplay. And if you somehow manage to die to the lich and can't spare one of your six revives to make it go away, you've got bigger problems.

Edited by SordidDreams
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24 minutes ago, SeRialPiXel said:

Ember: it was my most played frame, Ember is by nature a DPS - that worked in low level missions, yes, but still a DPS. What is Ember now? A Tank? That strips armor? Why would you ever wanna use ember now: if you want a tank you have plenty of other better choices, if you want something to strip armor there is much better. She has no place nor identity.

Ember was made far better with this update because shes not a frame you only bring for low level exterminate anymore. Shes become a solid powerhouse with this update thanks to increased survivability and armor-strpping. Its definitely better than only being used for low level extermination and more choice is always good. She also has a identity, she a warframe based around fire. This isnt a class-based MORPG where a class only has to be good at something while bad at something else. Warframes are characters that have a theme to their abilities not a role. Embers identity is that of a fire using Warframe.

30 minutes ago, SeRialPiXel said:

Vauban: call it a rework, feels clunky at best. But hey, I think this was the best part of the update tbh.

Back when they replaced bouncepads with minelayer i also found it clunky because of the mine toggle and that has not changed with the new update. It has however been given more versatility now rather than just being more CC that is overshadowed by Vortex or Bastile. Tesla is better now in my opinion because you can basicly just toss them in the direction of the enemy and forget about the nervos rather than having to aim where you wanna place a tesla grenade like before. Photon Strike is nice. It gives Vauban the ability to deal with the enemies he has trapped in his abilities. Merging the two was a good idea. It allows for a more streamlined use of either and cuts down on the number of redundant CC. The armor buff while inside Bastile also add more survivability which is just another bonus.

42 minutes ago, SeRialPiXel said:

Kuva Lich: one question. What is the reward behind all this mess? You do realize there are no incentives behind it aside from the Mastery points? I mean, if you introduce a major new part of the game you want it to appeal to the vast majority of players right? Ok, why would I ever go trough the pain of farming all the new parazon mods and all for a Kuva Seer. So much potential lost.

The lich system is still in its infancy and you can be pretty sure improvements are made. You are also looking at it the wrong way. Kuva liches tie into the riven mods and kuva economy. To get the Requiem mods you need to get Requiem relics which you get from Kuva siphoons which also gives you Kuva. Those relice also have other useful rewards besides the Requiem mods such as more kuva, amber stars or riven pieces. Its a extension of a existing system meant to give you addtional rewards and connect the system better.

52 minutes ago, SeRialPiXel said:

Melee nerfs: What can I say, thanks for killing melee! That's what I mean with losing touch with your community: imagine killing an entire system that had its strenght in scaling to implement one that has none of that and with the only puprose of looking cool. A disclaimer on this: I've been always against those youtubers who start these crusades against "DE catering to new players", but who does this new melee benefits? Really, did anyone at DE even jump into simulacrum and thought it was okay?

Sounds to me like you havent been experimenting with the new heavy strikes. They can be pretty powerful with the right mods provided you build combo. The new stance changes are also great. Different combos are much easier to achieve now. Alot of other weapon types such as swords or staves have also become more viable thanks to the weapon buffs and combo changes. The new changes arent perfect though and will need tweaking to become better but its better than what we had before where only a select few weapons was viable.

 

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45 minutes ago, BDMblue said:

K Rivens change all the time. It’s been in the fine print forever. Still we get the I spent 20$ on this thing that I know can change and you changed it!

just don’t bring it up. You knew the risk and you lost. If you want to win and not lose sell Rivens don’t buy.

To be fair though this is a live game that is actively selling things for profit. It's not early access or beta.

If rivens weren't fully realized or "finished" perhaps they shouldn't be on a live server environment.

 

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1 hour ago, SeRialPiXel said:

For someone that doesn't use the forums often, I need to manifest my concerns because this last update opened a really grim future for Warframe. Let's see what this update had to offer, but also HOW it was delivered.

Alright so we've been left alone in this game for months with no incentive to play and that's fair, what I suggested in the past was to at least appreciate those who keep playing your game during content droughts with boosters and such while the whole world migrates to Destiny but hey, that's fair. What I expected tho was communication: there was this big problem were Warframe was losing its playerbase daily and they just did nothing about it, like "We don't care" then why should I care either at this point.

The update
Alright so let's sum it up:
Ember: it was my most played frame, Ember is by nature a DPS - that worked in low level missions, yes, but still a DPS. What is Ember now? A Tank? That strips armor? Why would you ever wanna use ember now: if you want a tank you have plenty of other better choices, if you want something to strip armor there is much better. She has no place nor identity.
Vauban: call it a rework, feels clunky at best. But hey, I think this was the best part of the update tbh.
Kuva Lich: one question. What is the reward behind all this mess? You do realize there are no incentives behind it aside from the Mastery points? I mean, if you introduce a major new part of the game you want it to appeal to the vast majority of players right? Ok, why would I ever go trough the pain of farming all the new parazon mods and all for a Kuva Seer. So much potential lost.
Melee nerfs: What can I say, thanks for killing melee! That's what I mean with losing touch with your community: imagine killing an entire system that had its strenght in scaling to implement one that has none of that and with the only puprose of looking cool. A disclaimer on this: I've been always against those youtubers who start these crusades against "DE catering to new players", but who does this new melee benefits? Really, did anyone at DE even jump into simulacrum and thought it was okay?

What we were promised and lack of trust
They promised they would have brought other melees on pair with slide weapons, while not killing slide, yet that's what they did. Sorry, you spent 2500 plat on a Scoliac riven or wasted 4 hours being AFK every day for a week in a mission to roll that slot machine? Sorry, it's dead now. Did the same for catchmoon? Well we'll kill it now. I am ok with nerfs, but considering you introduced rivens which is a pain of a system and then acting like they were never introduced and PUNISHING your playerbase's effort is a joke.  Good to know, I guess after riven dispositions crushing your efforts and the fact that you basically don't care about them why would I ever try again to spend time or money into the only resemblance of endgame we have.

The future
Just wanna toss it out there: imagine in a few months from now when they'll nerf blink for archwings. Goodluck with your Eidolon runs! You will surely still be able to do what you do now when you'll have blink on cooldown.

At this point I don't even know if they play their own game. Melee: out of focus. Ember: out of focus. Kuva Lich: out of focus. I've been playing this game for years, and it's soul crushing to see it go downhill for dumb decisions like these. Give your game a direction.

Do you think you're The Community? You're the people in this quote:

"The people feeling the nerfs are the small subset of people who both had Maiming Body Rush Overload + CC/CD/Damage Rivens that could kill level 500 Bombards, and who actually enjoyed doing so for 3 hours a day several days a week. And these are the people who will -- not necessarily through fault of their own, this is human nature talking -- feel the most entitled to that level of power"

 

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17 минут назад, SordidDreams сказал:

No, it's not. Weaker weapons are weaker not because they're badly balanced, they're weaker because they're intended for low-level players. They're the iron swords of Warframe, you're meant to move on to better stuff. You can't buff them to 'fix' late game balance without throwing early game balance out of whack. The point of rivens is to eventually allow you to go back to using crappy early-game weapons that you liked for their looks or handling without suffering from their lack of power. It's supposed to work like this:

Early game: Use crappy weapons because you don't have access to anything better.

Mid game: Use powerful weapons because you need the extra punch.

Late game: Use whatever you want because you can bring even the crappy weapons on par with the good stuff.

That's the theory at least. How well it actually works in practice is debatable, personally I think strong weapons benefit too much from rivens and weak weapons not enough, but the point is rivens do have a place in the game and a legitimate reason to exist.

That's why the variants are needed. Primes, Vandals, that stuff. They make use of the concept of a weaker weapon from early game, like Tigris, and make it a viable Tigris Prime, preserving it's unique features, like firemode and appearance. Rivens are just another iteration of an already working (at least potentially) system on top of it, which only makes things unnecessary complicated, and potentially ruining the balance.

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Killing the catchmoon -  really bad but...it's a small thing compared to killing the melee.
I agree on this point 1000% .
The lich system is still unknown, because it's still in it's early days.It's a great idea with room for change and rewards.
The frame reworks etc don't meen nothing because they change them a lot as far as I have read and watched old videos.
But the melee rework is a complete nerf now.If they hated the spin2win atterax users or something, nerf them like you did with the catchmoon, not the whole systems with thousands of builds and for every player who has taken the time to grind for the mod and learn how it works, how to make it work better etc

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1 hour ago, SeRialPiXel said:

why would I ever go trough the pain of farming all the new parazon mods and all for a Kuva Seer. So much potential lost.

Right there with ya.

 

I wanted a Kuva Karak, but my lich got a Grok..grokuthur? Gro-something. The thing with the 4 barrels.

I've already spent hours on this, and so far all I got is one out of 3 revealed Parazon mods that I need. And it's exactly that one mod that won't drop. And that's not even including the RNG for the relics themselves.

 

Honestly, the Ember rework was the most interesting thing in this 2-3GB update. And that's even though there's a sound bug that keeps looping the SFX of her 2 when in your Orbiter.

Edited by o0Despair0o
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18 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Yeah, and that would be a nice change of pace from the usual "everything before me melts into goo in less than a second" gameplay. And if you somehow manage to die to the lich and can't spare one of your six revives to make it go away, you've got bigger problems.

Most people don't run full arcanes and the entire "getting killed because you exist" assassin style is just bad. (that "somehow" was a good joke...)
There are a bunch of gamemodes that will fail if you get killed by the lich and have to wait what feels like an eternity before you can go back to business again.


PS: If you melt everything then you are either playing at the lower levels or abuse the OP meta gear.

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2 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

That's why the variants are needed. Primes, Vandals, that stuff. They make use of the concept of a weaker weapon from early game, like Tigris, and make it a viable Tigris Prime, preserving it's unique features, like firemode and appearance. Rivens are just another iteration of an already working (at least potentially) system on top of it, which only makes things unnecessary complicated, and potentially ruining the balance.

That's also one way to do it, however there are two problems with it. Numer one, dev time. Creating a riven takes almost zero time, all you do is type in the name and the disposition, and the system spits out the range of possible stats for the riven automatically. Reskinning a weapon to make a new variant takes significantly longer than that, and with hundreds of weapons in the game already, only a handful of which have such variants, it would be a massive job.

Secondly, power creep. Progression doesn't just happen to an individual player, the game as a whole moves on from old stuff to new. Now don't get me wrong, power creep is necessary and good, new gear has to be better than old, simply because nobody would be excited for updates if everything in them was guaranteed to be worse than stuff we already have. But that does mean that a weapon variant that's late-game viable at its introduction won't be anymore six months or a year down the line, so in order to not completely defeat the point, you'd have to constantly rebalance these weapon varaints to keep them relevant. Oh the other hand, if the late-game viability is provided by a riven, all you need to tweak is one number, its disposition. Which, if you're smart about it, can be done automatically (though DE has apparently switched to manual adjustments due to player moaning; still, it's far less work for them than any of the other options).

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it's not DE that lost it's touch to the community

it's the community that lost it's touch with DE

you wanted a better less brain dead melee mechanics...and there you have it...no one likes it

you hated the ember nerf and wanted a better rework that addresses her 4 and her survivability, there you have it...yet nobody cares

exactly how old are you in the game if you don't know that rivens change? 

they buffed all melee weapons up to 3x made condition overload scale faster, yes at a cap but you get faster damage 

still nobody like it

for someone like me who criticize DE a lot, i think this time...we're wrong...

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18 minutes ago, Nesodos said:

Most people don't run full arcanes and the entire "getting killed because you exist" assassin style is just bad. (that "somehow" was a good joke...)
There are a bunch of gamemodes that will fail if you get killed by the lich and have to wait what feels like an eternity before you can go back to business again.


PS: If you melt everything then you are either playing at the lower levels or abuse the OP meta gear.

Fair enough, allow me to amend my statement:

If you somehow manage to die to the lich and can't spare one of your six four revives to make it go away, you've got bigger problems.

Though I'd say if you're at a point where you can engage with the lich system, which consists of missions level 50+, and you're not running two sets of at least some dirt-cheap arcane, you're doing it wrong. Some arcanes, such as Arcane Deflection, can be bought for 1p, meaning that two full sets cost as much as a potato. If you're running level 50+ missions and can't afford that, you've got bigger problems.

Oh, and there's no such thing as "abuse". Yes, I do use what you would probably consider OP meta gear. This is a game about figuring out and obtaining a loadout that allows you to kill as quickly and efficiently as possible, so if you don't use the strongest stuff available to you, you're doing it wrong.

Edited by SordidDreams
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We get Kuva weapons for hunting down Liches but, honestly, I like that DE considers that some players are motivated by theme more than drop tables. I absolutely love the Kuva Lich system. I'm at work and can't wait to get back and track down that wretch. She's been getting on my nerves (Good job writers/actors) and it's the first time in years in which I actually "feel" something while playing the game outside of (beautiful) cinematic quests or a surprise Lotus dialogue. I look forward to meet a nemesis that will make me say "I just can't do this" and convert it to my cause instead.

I'm always worried that Warframe will just homogenize with tropes borrowed from other creations, but things like this show that DE can commit to its own universe and develop deeper layers within their own mythos.

Things like this keep me playing more than capping hundreds of Eidolons in the hope of getting a single arcane energize.

Edited by Anarbitrio
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I don’t have the update yet but from stealing my friends account and holding him at gunpoint to play on his pc(if you felt like I was serious LOL) 

I agree with ember

 

 vaub is fine

 

melee is in a more balanced state and I’d say slightly better considering my SKANA can kill high level enemies with a lot more ease.

 

Lich- it’s not just about the reward. An Enemy that gets stronger if you can’t kill it and can and WILL beat you if you’re. Not engaged or attentive. It’s provides nice challenge. Also most of the kuva weapons have really nice stats. So they aren’t even mr fodder they are decent to good weaps. 

 

Signing off “toxic vet who hates casuals”

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3 минуты назад, SordidDreams сказал:

Secondly, power creep. Progression doesn't just happen to an individual player, the game as a whole moves on from old stuff to new. Now don't get me wrong, power creep is necessary and good, new gear has to be better than old, simply because nobody would be excited for updates if everything in them was guaranteed to be worse than stuff we already have.

I expected the power creep to be brought here.

Now this thing called 'power creep' is actually two separate tendencies:

First is overall increase of players' level of power, which is universal to all the weapons- this is caused by mods, intriducing new mechanics, etc. And it's more or less irrelevant to this discussion.

The second is relative power creep, when the new guns have flat out better stats than old, just because they're new. And this thing must be avoided at all cost, no matter how seductive it can be for the devs, because that is what will ruin the balance of any game eventually, and guess what, will lead to threads like this one. New weapons must be exciting because they are new, not because they are better. If you make a hypothetical Tenora as good as a hypothetical Soma Prime, good for you, but then please make Tenora Prime equal to the regular one, or if that's not suitable, make the regular Tenora weaker.

In the end why it is only the vets who get the sweet things, let the new players have them too.

Now, that might sound idealistic, because it is, and that kind of power creep is inevitable. Which brings us to the balance patches again, regular balance patches are needed to bring the old stuff to the level of the new stuff, negating the relative power creep.

And which bothers me here is that DE have the same logic, which is why they've done primary, secondary and beam weapons rebalance. But for some reason they do them so rarely, that the old weapons inbetween the patches have enough time to be forgotten a thousand times before a new one arrives.

Now to the Rivens. The idea of automated balancing mechanism is great. The thing is that for some reason DE never intended them to be one (if only I knew why) because the variable which they chose to adjust the power of them wasn't the weapons' strength, it wasn't DPS, it wasn't crit or status chances, no, it was popularity. So we can only dream about a mod which scales the power of the weapon automatically, because Rivens are everything but not one.

(Sorry for the wall of text)

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7 minutes ago, Anarbitrio said:

We get Kuva weapons for hunting down Liches but, honestly, I like that DE considers that some players are motivated by theme more than drop tables. I absolutely love the Kuva Lich system. I'm at work and can't wait to get back and track down that wretch. She's been getting on my nerves (Good job writers/actors) and it's the first time in years in which I actually "feel" something while playing the game outside of (beautiful) cinematic quests or a surprise Lotus dialogue. 

I'm always worried that Warframe will just homogenize with tropes borrowed from other creations, but things like this show that DE can commit to its own universe and develop deeper layers within their own mythos.

Things like this keep me playing more than capping hundreds of Eidolons in the hope of getting a single arcane energize.

I can't play it myself right now either, but I am really looking forward to it as well. I do have some concerns about the longevity of it that do unfortunately make me feel a bit pessimistic. You mention farming Eidolons for instance. I know eventually I'll get burnt out on Kuva Liches just like I did farming Eidolons. But what happens when they keep stealing loot from me? Am I going to be forced to interact with that content over and over just to reclaim my rewards? Up until now, most content you can move on from when you don't want to engage with it any more.

Those are my concerns, but I'm trying not to let the ruin the here and now, especially since I haven't even tried it yet! Its a problem for future me to worry about lol.

Edited by IntheCoconut
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4 minutes ago, (XB1)Lucas Jameson said:

...that's it? Sounds like a bugfix to me, same as chroma

Not quite. Chroma was calculated twice, while BR simply used your total crit chance first without calculating twice.

Now, unless your weapon has base 30% crit you will barely hit tier 1 red crits. Even if you increase that 30% to 75% via Sacrificial Steel and rivens, all of that gets ignored and uses 30% base if that's the weapon's default stat.

That's on top of a combo counter cap.

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2 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Sorry you couldn't manage to read how Rivens work or why paying for things that will change, no matter what the players say, is entirely on you.

What?

So, you're saying if you payed essentially 100+$ for something,
and it all of a sudden become worthless and useless compared to something you can get for free in game,
that it was the buyers fault for, what? Not being able to see the future and know that would happen?

Anyone would be complaining about that.

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hi everybody,

for me to nerf weapon or riven, why not, it is an evolution and we must adapt.

kuva lich , gerndel missions and vampiric kavat i am totally ok.it is great

but at this time , i like to play solo time to time and only in my opinion, they kill the solo version of the game.

i can't see big  differences between a simple rank 30 weapon and a 5 time format weapon anymore.

it is a forum so if someone is ok or against he can tell his way of mind and don't represent the entire community so what have done SeRialPiXel, is ok, we can debate about that.the forum is made for this purpose.

 

I will wait for patches and see but an other time in my mind they kill the solo mod at high level for now.

 

sorry if some mistakes in my sentences but i am not english or so,good day for all

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