Do People Not Realize That Kuva Liches Are Supposed to be Long Term Enemies?

[TheCoolcg10]

Lately I've been seeing people rant about how long it takes to get all three words and kill your lich. While I do agree it should be a little shorter, the point is to have a villain that grows in power with you. This is not the Sergeant where you are supposed to go to his node, kill him, and get what ever he drops. The Kuva Lich is supposed to be a threat.

Sure you can grind and grind to get all the Kuva weapons, but why bother? Sure Mastery Rank is cool, but I've found it more fun to hop into some nodes I haven't been to in a while and kill some thralls.(My lich is on Earth, and I don't remember the last time I was on Earth). 

 

All in all I love this update. Sure some people are mad because they can't spend 3 hours to unlock everything, but I like the idea of having an enemy that is not some random boss that I have to go to the same node over and over and hope RNG drops the blueprint I need so I can finish whatever I am building.  

[Cha0zb0rn]

Yes, yet they are implemented in the worst way possible. It's rng to get a rng chance at getting a mod that might or might not be part of the solution (that is RNG as well) to kill your lich for weapons with rng stats. That many layers of RNG are absolutely anti fun and I doubt many players will kill them more than a handful of times before dropping the whole concept entirely. 

If they shred 1-2 layers it might be a different story thoug. Considering the RNG rewards and thus the need to do the liches over and over to get what you actually want you cant expect ppl to grind that hard for days just to kill the liches once. 

[Vit0Corleone]

5 minutes ago, TheCoolcg10 said:

grows in power with you

Does he thou? It seems he only "grows" when you fail to kill him, and he can only rank up up to max level 5.

If this is not the case, I would love to know more.

As for being a threat .. hmm .. not really.

It's fun thou, that it is.

 

[Miyabi-sama]

7 минут назад, TheCoolcg10 сказал:

Lately I've been seeing people rant about how long it takes to get all three words and kill your lich. While I do agree it should be a little shorter, the point is to have a villain that grows in power with you. This is not the Sergeant where you are supposed to go to his node, kill him, and get what ever he drops. The Kuva Lich is supposed to be a threat.

Sure you can grind and grind to get all the Kuva weapons, but why bother? Sure Mastery Rank is cool, but I've found it more fun to hop into some nodes I haven't been to in a while and kill some thralls.(My lich is on Earth, and I don't remember the last time I was on Earth). 

 

All in all I love this update. Sure some people are mad because they can't spend 3 hours to unlock everything, but I like the idea of having an enemy that is not some random boss that I have to go to the same node over and over and hope RNG drops the blueprint I need so I can finish whatever I am building.  

There is already people with multiple Liches killed. Nolifers gonna nolife anyway, and casuals gonna take a long trip.

Just sayin'.

[TheCoolcg10]

Just now, Vit0Corleone said:

Does he thou? It seems he only "grows" when you fail to kill him, and he can only rank up up to max level 5.

If this is not the case, I would love to know more.

As for being a threat .. hmm .. not really.

It's fun thou, that it is.

 

I haven't gotten to far with mine, but I thought I remembered Steve said that the "Lich would grow with you" on a devstream. Maybe it only grows when you fail to kill it. Still find it fun.

[Loza03]

Just now, Cha0zb0rn said:

Yes, yet they are implemented in the worst way possible. It's rng to get a rng chance at getting a mod that might or might not be part of the solution (that is RNG as well) to kill your lich for weapons with rng stats. That many layers of RNG are absolutely anti fun and I doubt many players will kill them more than a handful of times before dropping the whole concept entirely. 

If they shred 1-2 layers it might be a different story thoug. Considering the RNG rewards and thus the need to do the liches over and over to get what you actually want you cant expect ppl to grind that hard for days just to kill the liches once. 

Agreed.

I like the concept and individual elements of the execution (the lich themselves works pretty well. I feel invested with my Lich and I'm enjoying pursuing them.)

One thing I feel could improve the system greatly is a lot more variety. Right now there's only two things liches do to screw you over (stealing loot and showing up to beat yo ass), and only one way you can progress along the road of offing them.

 

Whilst I'm not sure of other ways they could mess with you (at least until Railjack), I feel like alternative methods to acquire the Requiem mods or the murmurs could be interesting.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

The problem with it being a 'long term enemy' is the steal mechanic. IMO, no player should ever be separated from their hard-earned loot, but if it absolutely necessary, it should only be for a short time. Getting a rare item (a nice Arcane, a rare Mod, an Ephemera or Warframe Part blueprint, etc.) is something that hooks players into the game and makes it fun. Being told "too bad, you won the RNG, but because of other RNG you can't use this for another 3-4 months" would make a lot of players upset, and might even start making players quit.

Edited November 2, 2019 by -AoN-CanoLathra-
typo

[Vit0Corleone]

1 minute ago, TheCoolcg10 said:

I haven't gotten to far with mine, but I thought I remembered Steve said that the "Lich would grow with you" on a devstream. Maybe it only grows when you fail to kill it. Still find it fun.

They said lots of things.

They also said that the liches would steal the powers of the frames you use on them. Turns out they don't. Seems to be just random powers.

They said the liches would "follow us around". Turns our they don't, we are the ones following them.. only if you want, otherwise just ignore them.

They said liches were going to be challenging and "a menace". Turns out the "challenge" is all on the grinding, because fighting them is brain dead easy.

They said you could trade Lich contracts with team mates, turns out apparently you cannot.

Etc..?

I think we need to take it with a grain of salt the stuff they say, which as well intended as it may be, isn't necessarily what we ultimately get.

[Lachann]

23 minutes ago, TheCoolcg10 said:

Lately I've been seeing people rant about how long it takes to get all three words and kill your lich. While I do agree it should be a little shorter, the point is to have a villain that grows in power with you. This is not the Sergeant where you are supposed to go to his node, kill him, and get what ever he drops. The Kuva Lich is supposed to be a threat.

Sure you can grind and grind to get all the Kuva weapons, but why bother? Sure Mastery Rank is cool, but I've found it more fun to hop into some nodes I haven't been to in a while and kill some thralls.(My lich is on Earth, and I don't remember the last time I was on Earth). 

 

All in all I love this update. Sure some people are mad because they can't spend 3 hours to unlock everything, but I like the idea of having an enemy that is not some random boss that I have to go to the same node over and over and hope RNG drops the blueprint I need so I can finish whatever I am building.  

I realize that, but in this case "long term" turns into "infinity", since nothing in the way I play the game normally will make any progress towards killing the lich. I could open 100 relics, do 100 rounds of arbitration and complete 100 sorties, and all of that won't make even one tick of progress towards discovering lich's requiem mods. To make any headway, I have to specifically grind missions that have no point other than discovering murmurs.

[Kconvey]

13 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The problem with it being a 'long term enemy' is the steal mechanic. IMO, no player should ever be separated from their hard-earned loot, but if it absolutely necessary, it should only be for a short time. Getting a rare item (a nice Arcane, a rare Mod, an Ephemera or Warframe Part blueprint, etc.) is something that hooks players into the game and makes it fun. Being told "too bad, you won the RNG, but because of other RNG you can't use this for another 3-4 months" would make a lot of players upset, and might even start making players quit.

Yeah I quit till this is removed. 

Players should never ever ever have loot taken from them. Ever... like ever ever!

[Gasau]

de do not respect the time of their players. It’s time to remember.

[ShimmerDoll]

If only my life lasted as long as the game expects to make me wait. With the limited time I have I do lots of other things. Games used to be a thing you go to to have fun but now real jobs are the thing you do to have fun. They're less life leeching than SOME games.

[Zebiko]

1 hour ago, Cha0zb0rn said:

Yes, yet they are implemented in the worst way possible. It's rng to get a rng chance at getting a mod that might or might not be part of the solution (that is RNG as well) to kill your lich for weapons with rng stats. That many layers of RNG are absolutely anti fun and I doubt many players will kill them more than a handful of times before dropping the whole concept entirely. 

If they shred 1-2 layers it might be a different story thoug. Considering the RNG rewards and thus the need to do the liches over and over to get what you actually want you cant expect ppl to grind that hard for days just to kill the liches once. 

Warframe is turning into a grind to pull a lever slot machine.

[Mephane]

Quote

Do People Not Realize That Kuva Liches Are Supposed to be Long Term Enemies?

As long as this loot stealing mechanic is in place, they will always be "get rid of ASAP" enemies.

[Hypernaut1]

 liches will be nerfed into NOTHING soon enough. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[enizer]

The thing I worry about, sure, the Liches are interesting NOW while they are new, and have gear drops that I don't have.

BUT, what about AFTER I'm done with that?

The loot stealing mechanic going after relics and riven mods and such ensures they will be an annoying priority target pest forever, forcing me to attack them to get to the content I WANT to play.

 

Is it really a good idea to add a chore to the game?

DE say the Kuva Lich will be allowed to expand to cover the entire map if people ignore it, like that's something people aren't guaranteed to do once they become bored of it?

... you do realize that once I have the his interesting drops I'm going to see a Kuva Lich infested map and see a mental sign that says "you need to wash the dishes before you can play this game"?

 

I'll wait and see how this develops, a nemesis of some kind is an interesting idea, but the way this is implemented runs the risk of becoming VERY boring in the long run.

Edited November 2, 2019 by enizer

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

It's DE just being DE...

Here's this incredible idea that at first glance you're like yes..this will be fun...and then DE puts it behind Kuva Siphons...Kuva Siphons...One of the worst experiences in the game next to lunaro...So it's a great long term idea saddled with a long term excruciating farm that takes the first part and rubs it in a trough of fail...which, will be really evident in an year from now on Eris with a Kuva siphon wedged in a terrible location as always and you're trying to kill the cloud, which is under the map and stuck...

Edited November 2, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[OvisCaedo]

An enemy being an actual threat or long term goal kind of requires that enemy to be an actual threat, or to have any amount of engagement over that long term. Liches really don't have either! I guess there's the potential threat of, if it happens to infest a planet with a rare drop, it might steal that rare drop from you. Otherwise it seems to take an absolute pittance of regular resources. So maybe they just, shouldn't steal rare drops?

as for being an actual threat or engaging, i don't think either is likely. Warframe is a game that is outright impossible to balance numbers around, while also being an almost entirely numbers-based game. Liches don't change that, they just throw a game of Mastermind in the way to make it take a few goes of killing the easy boss before you actually get to do so "for real".

And, of course, in maximum DE fashion, they also tied RNG powercreep loot to them! Though it turns out the elements aren't random and are instead based on your spawning warframe, DE just thought it would be a fun exciting thing to not tell people that first so they could get surprise magnetic bonuses. The percent of the element, though, is of course random in a pretty significant seeming range, on top of the random weapon selection to begin with. You can say that a lich is meant to be a singular long term goal, but DE shoved over a dozen weapons with a random bonus range onto them as a lottery system. That is, inherently, a system meant to bait people into doing something a huge number of times.

I would feel a lot more leeway towards these if the element value didn't have a random range of... What, 25 to 60%? Those are about the low and high ends I've seen so far. Maybe if you had to pump kuva into the weapon or something to scale it up, instead?

Edited November 2, 2019 by OvisCaedo

[Avienas]

23 minutes ago, enizer said:

The thing I worry about, sure, the Liches are interesting NOW while they are new, and have gear drops that I don't have.

BUT, what about AFTER I'm done with that?

The loot stealing mechanic going after relics and riven mods and such ensures they will be an annoying priority target pest forever, forcing me to attack them to get to the content I WANT to play.

 

Is it really a good idea to add a chore to the game?

DE say the Kuva Lich will be allowed to expand to cover the entire map if people ignore it, like that's something people aren't guaranteed to do once they become bored of it?

... you do realize that once I have the his interesting drops I'm going to see a Kuva Lich infested map and see a mental sign that says "you need to wash the dishes before you can play this game"?

 

I'll wait and see how this develops, a nemesis of some kind is an interesting idea, but the way this is implemented runs the risk of becoming VERY boring in the long run.

Console`er here but i definitely had that feeling of it turning bad once you clear out the weapons that matter, at best they basically serve as D.E. stalling substantial content by making a few major updates likely have a good chunk of it being more kuva variant weapons. Till they eventually have Corpus or even Infested join in on the Kuva lich party, till we start seeing Kuva Lanka, Kuva Hema, Kuva Lenz, Kuva *insert your favorite corpus/infested weapon here*. Its quite literally just being another variant weapon for now that are basically exclusive to grineer weapons for now, which we already have Vandal, Prisma, Wraith, Dex, etc. variants all over the place. Yet these are being effectively the grineer version of Prime weapons, with a riven twist added to them.

If the loot stealing mechanic maybe included: Say increasing the loot you get back by 50% or even doubling what you had yoinked, then maybe it could be a nice boon, basically lose something but take back much more. Still rather they set it up so you can pillage some of the goods without needing to take down the kuva lich to get them back though as an alternative means. Though i am not a fan of Kuva liches able to expand past the planet they are camping, that would certainly make it even more annoying. Even if i normally do not do regular mission types, since its usually just fissures/arbitations these days, with sometimes bounties & farming maps when i need relics and fissures for the usual ducats/trace stock. Which a good deal of those are completely immune to lich infestations or not even grineer maps to begin with.

 

Maybe throw in us having some fun meme like mechanics where instead of sparing the lich or straight up killing the lich, we just throw them in a meat grinder we can make on a relay/orbitier/dojo and it pretty much squeezes the kuva out of them. Maybe even throw in fear factor points that let us send a message to force kuva larvae to not come after us for a few days since they will not want to be meat grinder`d into a huge amount of kuva for us and the rest made into a treat for some wild kubrows & scrap metal for darvo.

Anyway, thats just me musing ideas of actual long-term viability for the content, i certainly would prefer a nice huge payoff for a system that could take many hours getting thru and results in more then us getting some resources back and getting a fancy variant weapon which likely will have trash stats.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Avienas

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

 

I'm kind of getting mixed signals here. Players saying they want a threating enemy. Then when an enemy actully poses a threat (of taking a rare drop) players say that is a bad thing.

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

 

I'm kind of getting mixed signals here. Players saying they want a threating enemy. Then when an enemy actully poses a threat (of taking a rare drop) players say that is a bad thing.

Enemies taking our loot does not make it threatening, it's just an unnecessary  pain in the ass 

[Grofiteer]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

 

I'm kind of getting mixed signals here. Players saying they want a threating enemy. Then when an enemy actully poses a threat (of taking a rare drop) players say that is a bad thing.

The Lich is just annoying, the mechanic of wasting my time via. stealing the loot I've worked towards is the threat (negating the reason I spent the time doing activity X).
Consider that lots of us will never actually clear that Lich due to forced Kuva missions, forced RNG+RNG+RNG removal system and such...what's the incentive to play the game?..fun - gone, rewards - RNG can say "that loot is not yours now, gratz on wasting an hour".

[Masquerine]

3 minutes ago, Grofiteer said:

The Lich is just annoying, the mechanic of wasting my time via. stealing the loot I've worked towards is the threat (negating the reason I spent the time doing activity X).
Consider that lots of us will never actually clear that Lich due to forced Kuva missions, forced RNG+RNG+RNG removal system and such...what's the incentive to play the game?..fun - gone, rewards - RNG can say "that loot is not yours now, gratz on wasting an hour".

The loot stealing is also compounded when the lich steals your requiem relic from the kuva mission, the very thing you need in order to get rid of said lich. It just adds another layer of grind on top of the already super grindy lich adventure.

[DarthTygg]

To all Console players. People complaining about Liches stealing loot on missions, are being dishonest about the content.

The nodes on which the Lich has influence are the only nodes where your loot can be stolen. Even on those nodes, you have the option to run the mission as a normal mission. Just like nightmare missions give the option to still allow you to run a given node as a normal mission.

When people complain about having this forced on them, they are flat out misrepresenting the facts.

Edited November 2, 2019 by DarthTygg
mispelling

[vanaukas]

3 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

They said lots of things.

They also said that the liches would steal the powers of the frames you use on them. Turns out they don't. Seems to be just random powers.

They said the liches would "follow us around". Turns our they don't, we are the ones following them.. only if you want, otherwise just ignore them.

They said liches were going to be challenging and "a menace". Turns out the "challenge" is all on the grinding, because fighting them is brain dead easy.

They said you could trade Lich contracts with team mates, turns out apparently you cannot.

Etc..?

I think we need to take it with a grain of salt the stuff they say, which as well intended as it may be, isn't necessarily what we ultimately get.

1) thats true
2) they always stated that they are going to act like the "misterious stranger" perk on fallout if you choose conversion
3) Idk but the fight was pretty hard for me and I do almsot daily 1 or 2 hours arbitrtions on solo without dying ofc. For me they are a pretty nice threat 
4) this is true