Bring back our Melee 2.0

[MASTERFEAR_NRH]

Thnx for your too much dedication [DE].

With every update enemy r getting stronger and weapons r getting good nerf.

Time to decrease ur player base even more with combo & multiplier limit.
Please try to complete a kuva lich in next prime time without using ur dev-mod, i am sure u guys take decade to complete.  

[Acos]

On 2019-11-02 at 1:56 AM, Andele3025 said:

Objectively lies. Forward combo animation locks and force slows, Block forward combo animation locks forward on the slide spin, static combo actually moves you forward so far that you are faster using it than the forward combo. And thats ignoring the massive choppyness and snaps its animations now have on everything but the static block combo (which is the only part of the original weapons moveset untouched by heresy other than its startup attack removed). Even at 3+ attack speed you still feel physically feel the slowdowns and moves that force move you in a direction instead of being able to streer them as you could with everything except for the slide spin (which honestl could just be removed from TR and the moveset reverted, maybe making the forward combo literall just the repeat of the double 360 because its a entirely upper body animation).

I'm not feeling it. 

Vanilla Tempo Royale had these pauses too where your forward momentum would pause so you could do some fancy Artorias Flips before moving forward again so that's always been a thing. 

For most weapons (including tempo royale) the "move forward while waving my stick around" command is AIM+MELEE. For Tempo Royale specifically you'll get even more momentum if you alternate between AIM_MELEE and LIGHT_MELEE although just holding down aim+melee is perfectly sufficient. You can sprinkle in air attacks and slide dashes for flavor/elevation too if you need. 

For actual combat against enemies with more than one hit point Tempo Royale can actually stand. friggin'. still. and engage the enemy, which is not something I felt like it did very well beforehand. 

The usability of most (all? I haven't tested them all yet, but it feels good.) has gone way up, but ya'll need to hit more than one button on the keyboard now. 

[Andele3025]

5 hours ago, Acos said:

I'm not feeling it. 

Vanilla Tempo Royale had these pauses too where your forward momentum would pause so you could do some fancy Artorias Flips before moving forward again so that's always been a thing. 

Vanilla TR had the flips as part of the block combo and you could steer not just with mouse but with left and right for a moment during the flips (not to mention that the flips moved you at movement speed or sprint speed instead of these weird part steps). Control and movement smoothness players have over TR has gone WAY DOWN.

5 hours ago, Acos said:

For most weapons (including tempo royale) the "move forward while waving my stick around" command is AIM+MELEE. For Tempo Royale specifically you'll get even more momentum if you alternate between AIM_MELEE and LIGHT_MELEE although just holding down aim+melee is perfectly sufficient. You can sprinkle in air attacks and slide dashes for flavor/elevation too if you need. 

Except that the spin slide of old pause combo doesnt have a frontal hitbox during most of the slide and animation locks/interrupts you during the snap to any new animation.

5 hours ago, Acos said:

For actual combat against enemies with more than one hit point Tempo Royale can actually stand. friggin'. still. and engage the enemy, which is not something I felt like it did very well beforehand. 

Except that the stand still combo moves you forward AND that TR did it better before because you have a free move double spin start with very low movement forward diagonal swipes AND you could just block cancel to keep doing the double spin. Now all you can do to actually deal damage while static is spam Bold Repreise/old back combo slam.

5 hours ago, Acos said:

The usability of most (all? I haven't tested them all yet, but it feels good.) has gone way up, but ya'll need to hit more than one button on the keyboard now. 

Nope. Usability of weapons as weapons has gone up because of new range (which is what most people are feeling now) and some S#&$ stances were buffed by being partially freed of their animation locks, but good stances got nerfed by getting said amount of animation locks times 5 slapped onto them (and given loads of animation choppyness/snaps) and most if not all already average stances from before lost a part of their kit (again, few exceptions like S&S, S&W, etc exist due to prior having long animation chains before god parts of the attack chain that they can now just pull off the strong part).

[Acos]

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Vanilla TR had the flips as part of the block combo and you could steer not just with mouse but with left and right for a moment during the flips (not to mention that the flips moved you at movement speed or sprint speed instead of these weird part steps). Control and movement smoothness players have over TR has gone WAY DOWN.

Except that the spin slide of old pause combo doesnt have a frontal hitbox during most of the slide and animation locks/interrupts you during the snap to any new animation.

Except that the stand still combo moves you forward AND that TR did it better before because you have a free move double spin start with very low movement forward diagonal swipes AND you could just block cancel to keep doing the double spin. Now all you can do to actually deal damage while static is spam Bold Repreise/old back combo slam.

Nope. Usability of weapons as weapons has gone up because of new range (which is what most people are feeling now) and some S#&$ stances were buffed by being partially freed of their animation locks, but good stances got nerfed by getting said amount of animation locks times 5 slapped onto them (and given loads of animation choppyness/snaps) and most if not all already average stances from before lost a part of their kit (again, few exceptions like S&S, S&W, etc exist due to prior having long animation chains before god parts of the attack chain that they can now just pull off the strong part).

My example is just the example of the fastest forward movement combo you can do with TR; Regular slide attacks, the new air combo, and the 'forward' combo provide a "slower" movement combo if you need that. 'Static' combo lets you move even slower than that. When I mention that TR has better control now this is what I mean; You have more options as a player to choose how quickly and what distance you are going to cover with your attack. I am not expecting that any stance combo be completely static without forward movement nor do I think this would generally be a good thing; Enemies stagger back when you hit them so this would honestly be more annoying than useful. Even if you can't kill an enemy before you slowly tip-toe away from them it shouldn't take a massive amount of gamer skill to flip the camera around and re-engage them. That said if you can't kill an enemy before tip-toeing past them you really need to take my advice about Killing Blow and Combo Efficiency to heart because I am one-shotting level 140+ Heavy Gunners like they were naked. 

Block Canceling adds dead frames to your DPS which would be considerably slower than what we can do now. It's a nice work around for the older system, however if you didn't do that then Tempo Royale was all speed all the time and it had a problem at higher levels of dashing past enemies and requiring you to Beyblade back towards them to finish them off. Controlling it now is a lot more straightforward and consistent and doesn't require you to waste time block-canceling. It's objectively more powerful. 

I'm also not seeing the hitbox issues you are having, although I may not be understanding what you're talking about either as it's hard to articulate what wooshy-sword swing we're talking about; The gap-closers have a pretty generous hitbox even without Primed Reach equipped (which I tested for over an hour) and the only time I didn't hit the enemy with it is if I didn't physically reach their destination. The hitbox appears to be active the entire forward movement. Obviously Primed Reach makes this even better. I have not felt like I am obviously missing an enemy that I felt I should; Most of the time in fact I am definitely hitting enemies I did not "physically" touch. Which is good because this a video game and judging distance without physical sensation is massively more difficult than the real world. 

I don't disagree that the range buff is a major boon with this the melee update. I have been making the argument for the last... however long this game has been active that there was a massive range disparity between small & large weapons. If you really want to dig through my post history (and I mean really dig.) you'll see that I have routinely suggested range mods be additive rather than multiplicative as this only exasperated the problem; Big weapons got a massive increase from range mods while smaller weapons (which needed range the most) got such a minuscule benefit that they weren't worth using. Small weapons just felt blatantly nonviable and very frustrating to use. Riven Mods, Prime Reach, & Maiming Strike finally got this issue into the meta and then it took a bit of time after that for DE to finally respond to my years long issue with melee. 

I also never liked how the combo system was implemented and argued for a more simple 'hard vs light' attack system for AWHILE. I was hardly alone in that opinion during Melee 2.0. It seemed like the dev team at the time wanted a more "complex" system for melee, but misunderstood "complex" to mean "difficult to friggin' use & remember."

It's not like I don't see where you are coming from either; The design intention from the DevStreams seemed to imply that the LIGHT_FORWARD combo was going to be a seamless forward movement. I was really thrown off when I booted up the game and my precious baby girl Tranquil Cleave had seemingly lost the entirety of its' fluid forward movement. I reserved much of my judgement until I played around with it for awhile and I can tel you pretty confidently that if you adapt to using your gap closer as your "wave my stick around while moving forward" option you should find that most weapon stances have a lot more viability in the mobility department than they ever have. TR included. 

Which isn't to say I don't agree that LIGHT_FORWARD shouldn't have most of its' animation canceling trimmed down, but just that I disagree that fluidity of melee weapons is dead or that its' damage potential is gone. It's different. The meta builds were most definitely nerfed, which I think was absolutely necessary in order to make any meaningful changes to the rest of the system. If you use charge attacks and capitalize on combo oriented mods you'll find that it is monstrously powerful as well (this was more OP's argument than yours, but I like to keep pointing it out since the forums still haven't caught on.) 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Acos

[Andele3025]

39 minutes ago, Acos said:

My example is just the example of the fastest forward movement combo you can do with TR; Regular slide attacks, the new air combo, and the 'forward' combo provide a "slower" movement combo if you need that. 'Static' combo lets you move even slower than that.

Wrong. Static combo while holding back/to move back moves you forward faster than forward combo if you have any form of attack speed mods or in general arent using a 0.8 attack speed melee.

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When I mention that TR has better control now this is what I mean; You have more options as a player to choose how quickly and what distance you are going to cover with your attack.

Wrong. No attack chain has free movement other than forward combos first attack/the old signature double spin which you have to tap block cancel to use regularly which is fiddly as hell/no longer a viable strat.

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I am not expecting that any stance combo be completely static without forward movement nor do I think this would generally be a good thing; Enemies stagger back when you hit them so this would honestly be more annoying than useful. 

Except weapon range went up from (not counting zaws and a few exceptions) 2-4m range to 5-7m range, so unless you mean hammer knockdowns no, it would be exactly what a static combo should be

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Even if you can't kill an enemy before you slowly tip-toe away from them it shouldn't take a massive amount of gamer skill to flip the camera around and re-engage them. That said if you can't kill an enemy before tip-toeing past them you really need to take my advice about Killing Blow and Combo Efficiency to heart because I am one-shotting level 140+ Heavy Gunners like they were naked.

Arguing that lack of combat smoothness should be offset by player skill is not a argument at all. Its just defending bad design. A DMC stinger doesnt dash you past the enemy unless you use it above them (which would here be more slam equation).
Also, heavy attacks with killing and stacked damage mods dont do S#&$ even at 12x, what kills enemies on heavy attacks on only certain weapons is that some weapons inherited their guaranteed slash procs for which you only need KB, Corrupt charge and base damage.

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Block Canceling adds dead frames to your DPS which would be considerably slower than what we can do now. It's a nice work around for the older system, however if you didn't do that then Tempo Royale was all speed all the time and it had a problem at higher levels of dashing past enemies and requiring you to Beyblade back towards them to finish them off. Controlling it now is a lot more straightforward and consistent and doesn't require you to waste time block-canceling. It's objectively more powerful. 

Nope. You increased dps by using block cancels to repeat high multiplier or multihit attacks at the start of a attack chain if it had no animation locks. TR is objectively weaker because not just that but also because its attacks got butchered and animation locked.

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I'm also not seeing the hitbox issues you are having, although I may not be understanding what you're talking about either as it's hard to articulate what wooshy-sword swing we're talking about; The gap-closers have a pretty generous hitbox even without Primed Reach equipped (which I tested for over an hour) and the only time I didn't hit the enemy with it is if I didn't physically reach their destination. The hitbox appears to be active the entire forward movement. Obviously Primed Reach makes this even better. I have not felt like I am obviously missing an enemy that I felt I should; Most of the time in fact I am definitely hitting enemies I did not "physically" touch. Which is good because this a video game and judging distance without physical sensation is massively more difficult than the real world. 

Nope. Slide spin (first move of forward block combo) literally has no frontal hitboxfor the first 65% of its animation. Easily tested by taking no attack speed heavy blade with spoiled strike and paused ai enemies, its hitbox starts behind you on the right and then rotates left forward at the end of the slide spin, no amount of range fixes that because its a hitbox issue they NEWLY INTRODUCED with the butchered TR (it used to still hit enemies you physically made contact with your frame, now it no longer does even that; tho as said that was the worst move of old TR as well/the only bad attack on it).

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 that if you adapt to using your gap closer as your "wave my stick around while moving forward" option you should find that most weapon stances have a lot more viability in the mobility department than they ever have. TR included.

I am not using the block forward combo/gap closer as moving around attack. In fact im not using it at all because it and the forward attack of TR are now dumpsterfire due to animation locks and changes. Tho in the end I gave up on TR because a gameloop that consists of "only hold back and spam LMB to go forward" is less interesting that watching paint dry.
And because benefit of guaranteed slash procs on heavy attacks while being 100% edge with Hate is almost as cool as a big #*!%off infested zweihander.

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Which isn't to say I don't agree that LIGHT_FORWARD shouldn't have most of its' animation canceling trimmed down, but just that I disagree that fluidity of melee weapons is dead or that its' damage potential is gone. It's different. The meta builds were most definitely nerfed, which I think was absolutely necessary in order to make any meaningful changes to the rest of the system. If you use charge attacks and capitalize on combo oriented mods you'll find that it is monstrously powerful as well (this was more OP's argument than yours, but I like to keep pointing it out since the forums still haven't caught on.)

Dont care about the damage (much; as said DE can put whatever modifiers they wanted to, i was just adding the issue as a note that the insane decision to butcher TR also contradticts their intent of "high damage attack chain which you should use while static" by it being better mobility than the supposedly "mobility/gap closing with staggers" and "mobility/gap closer with hard cc" attack chains), i care that good stances were downgraded to what would have been barely above average instead of just ported over identical/without the first move or two that all attack chains used to share in a stance and with the new keybinds.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Andele3025

[Acos]

41 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

                                                                                                                         WRONG -snip-

 I still don't understand which move you are talking about with this "forward hitbox"; Every single combo available hits the enemy without issue, even while using Spoiled Strike + Gram with no other speed enhancing mods. I don't know why you would mod this way, aside from trying to prove your point, but I still can't reproduce the problem you appear to be having. Forward_Light attack hits enemies absolutely without issue, and gap closer actually locks onto targets which is not something I had noticed at "normal" attack speed values. The way you describe it I would expect to easily notice one of the combo options only hitting enemies behind me and having a difficult time connecting with something in front of me, but nothing I do reproduces your results. I don't know how it can be possible for you to be missing enough that you feel compelled to document it as a problem, but I am not having this issue. I can't imagine its' a perspective or skill gap issue since I've been doing melee longer than you, so maybe a video demonstration would help get your point across. 

I'm not arguing that the combat isn't smooth either; forward momentum is a natural aspect of melee in general and has been since Melee 2.0 (and before, actually) and is present for just about every melee focused game I can possibly think of. You are being disingenuous by implying my argument insinuates otherwise; I am merely pointing out that adapting to very minor forward momentum is not a huge adjustment in player skill, and you are completely disregarding that enemies naturally stagger backwards as you hit them to help compensate by a much more natural forward momentum. Completely static melee attacks would actually be less realistic. Or, at very least, about as realistic as relying on an animation cancel for big deeps. Which argument are you going for, exactly? Your priorities contradict each other. 

I know you don't personally care as much about damage, I even made it a point to point that out when talking about it. You'd know this if you were taking the time to read my arguments instead of slapping a "wrong" in front of everything like you are speaking from some higher level of authority than everyone else you encounter. Thanks for... Elaborating on how much focus you are giving to this conversation, I guess? Feels good. 

I think your final statement on your refusal to even explore the new tools given to you (gap closer, in this case) plainly reveals the value in even having a conversation with you; You clearly and proudly admit you are going to refuse to explore Melee Phase 2 because you've dismissed it as a downgrade without even bothering to understand it. Given that stance it is obviously pointless to try to have a conversation with you, much less educate you on different things you could try. It also helps me understand that you've been completely misunderstanding the combo I've been talking about for 100% of this conversation, which is probably why your responses to me don't make any sense vs what I've been experiencing in the game. 

Good luck with your self imposed sense of stubborn pride, I suppose? 



 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Acos

[Andele3025]

5 minutes ago, Acos said:

 I still don't understand which move you are talking about with this "forward hitbox"; Every single combo available hits the enemy without issue, even while using Spoiled Strike + Gram with no other speed enhancing mods. I don't know why you would mod this way, aside from trying to prove your point, but I still can't reproduce the problem you appear to be having.

I can't imagine its' a perspective or skill gap issue since I've been doing melee longer than you, so maybe a video demonstration would help get your point across.

IF that last line is true, its a case where the saying of "time does not equal experience" holds true.

5 minutes ago, Acos said:

I'm not arguing that the combat isn't smooth either; forward momentum is a natural aspect of melee in general and has been since Melee 2.0 (and before, actually) and is present for just about every melee focused game I can possibly think of.

Except its not. Its not part of brawlers, its not part of spectacle fighters, its not part of souls like games (obviously) and even in DMC and co it had the respect that old/pre butchering tempo royale had to only have very short and very fast animation locks only on moves that require them.

5 minutes ago, Acos said:

You are being disingenuous by implying my argument insinuates otherwise; I am merely pointing out that adapting to very minor forward momentum is not a huge adjustment in player skill, and you are completely disregarding that enemies naturally stagger backwards as you hit them to help compensate by a much more natural forward momentum. Completely static melee attacks would actually be less realistic. Or, at very least, about as realistic as relying on an animation cancel for big deeps. Which argument are you going for, exactly? Your priorities contradict each other. 

No, you are just being objectively wrong. You are ignoring the fact that warframe is based on speed, that the attack animations used to not have animation locks, that there are many a stance which almost entirely has free wasd movement (well no longer both w and s due to keybinds but point stands of being upper body only animations that dont alter your speed or input direction) and obviously had no clue that the signature double spin of TR could be block cancelled by simply holding shift and block (not even need to tap it) and not inputting a new attack till recovery frames because the attacks duration was long enough for the attack chain que to end; im guessing you dont even know that the range on its first spin is shorter.

5 minutes ago, Acos said:

I know you don't personally care as much about damage, I even made it a point to point that out when talking about it. You'd know this if you were taking the time to read my arguments instead of slapping a "wrong" in front of everything like you are speaking from some higher level of authority than everyone else you encounter. Thanks for... Elaborating on how much focus you are giving to this conversation, I guess? Feels good. I think your final statement on your refusal to even explore the new tools given to you (gap closer, in this case) plainly reveals the value in even having a conversation with you; You clearly and proudly admit you are going to refuse to explore Melee Phase 2 because you've dismissed it as a downgrade without even bothering to understand it. Given that stance it is obviously pointless to try to have a conversation with you, much less educate you on different things you could try. It also helps me understand that you've been completely misunderstanding the combo I've been talking about for 100% of this conversation, which is probably why your responses to me don't make any sense vs what I've been experiencing in the game.
Good luck with your self imposed sense of stubborn pride, I suppose?

1.) Its objectively a downgrade from peak quality that was among stances before. The relevant points where melee did improve (keybinds being on each attack chain, at least decent range across all weapons and dodge cancel mid input instead of being a override on the input que) are not relevant to that point. Only that raising the stances that ranked at best 2/10 to a 5~6/10 did not require gutting the ones that were better than a 8/10.
2.) You trying to move the goalpost doesnt work and trying to move it to a point that was refuted yee ago with the fact that the static combo is actually better mobility that the supposedly mobile normal forward combo is just plain dumb.
3.) Enjoy eating the dumpster i guess. Just do keep in mind that its not food.

[Acos]

2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except its not. Its not part of brawlers, its not part of spectacle fighters, its not part of souls like games (obviously) and even in DMC and co it had the respect that old/pre butchering tempo royale had to only have very short and very fast animation locks only on moves that require them.

Really, I'm not sure how to respond to this. Dark Souls as a series is praised for it's "realistic" sense of momentum. MOST attacks in that game have weight and naturally pull you forward with momentum. If you've ever done PVP in that game (successfully, I mean) you would have learned that a major aspect of that game is managing your stamina and spacing. As you become more familiar with different weapons and their movesets you can save stamina and fish for openings by simple tip-toeing out of the enemies range instead of dodge rolling everywhere like a noob. Dark Souls is probably my GO TO example of momentum in video games, so it's really weird that you'd cite that one as a counter point. I'm going to assume you simply don't understand what my argument was there and move on. Literally every genre you've listed is rife examples of momentum based melee combat and I can't fathom how you think any of those examples proves the point you seem to have been trying to make. I'm not sure. You jump around a lot.  

As for your example: it is now apparent the reason I haven't encountered your problem is that I have not tried to use a gap closer in point-blank range of an enemy. I suppose it seemed obvious to me that I would use my "static" combo in that situation since... Why would I want to move AWAY from the enemy I am fighting? But yes, if you use a gap closer with a very slow weapon made even slower and then refuse to use primed reach you will naturally dash away from the enemies you are fighting to hit the enemies in front of you. I don't know why you would do that, but you are correct in demonstrating that it is a bad idea. 

A much better, momentum based option would have been to use your LIGHT_FORWARD and then alternate to your AIM_FORWARD, which would have hit the enemies nearby you and then close the distance to the enemies towards the end of the group. You could also equip Prime Reach and be hitting all of them all the time but I suppose we're trying to pretend like that isn't an option so we can prove a very narrow and extremely specific point. You could have also stood *slightly* farther back, or pointed your crosshair at any of the enemies to reduce the distance of your gap closer since it has a soft-lock on effect. 

But, by your own admission, you refuse to learn so I don't expect you'll appreciate that advice. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Acos

[Andele3025]

12 hours ago, Acos said:

Really, I'm not sure how to respond to this. Dark Souls as a series is praised for it's "realistic" sense of momentum. MOST attacks in that game have weight and naturally pull you forward with momentum. If you've ever done PVP in that game (successfully, I mean) you would have learned that a major aspect of that game is managing your stamina and spacing. As you become more familiar with different weapons and their movesets you can save stamina and fish for openings by simple tip-toeing out of the enemies range instead of dodge rolling everywhere like a noob. Dark Souls is probably my GO TO example of momentum in video games, so it's really weird that you'd cite that one as a counter point. I'm going to assume you simply don't understand what my argument was there and move on. Literally every genre you've listed is rife examples of momentum based melee combat and I can't fathom how you think any of those examples proves the point you seem to have been trying to make. I'm not sure. You jump around a lot. 

Either you dont know what momentum is, somehow thing that a half step on a horizontal swing (which is the most there should be on static combos) that allows free aim and turning with left and right is equivalent to the animation locks and/or forward movement or you are a DS3 baby rapier/dex/dual spammer. Which is just further proof you dont know anything about any of the genres or games. YOU HAVE NO FORCED MOVEMENT IN ANY OF THOSE GAMES, ONLY CONTROLLED AND TRIGGERED.

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As for your example: it is now apparent the reason I haven't encountered your problem is that I have not tried to use a gap closer in point-blank range of an enemy. I suppose it seemed obvious to me that I would use my "static" combo in that situation since... Why would I want to move AWAY from the enemy I am fighting? But yes, if you use a gap closer with a very slow weapon made even slower and then refuse to use primed reach you will naturally dash away from the enemies you are fighting to hit the enemies in front of you. I don't know why you would do that, but you are correct in demonstrating that it is a bad idea. 

Because the prior gap closer damaged enemies, 85% of all other stances gap closers damage enemies and IDK why you are dense, it doesnt matter, point is stop trying to say "everything is fine" when you obviously didnt even touch the game since the patch.

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A much better, momentum based option would have been to use your LIGHT_FORWARD and then alternate to your AIM_FORWARD, which would have hit the enemies nearby you and then close the distance to the enemies towards the end of the group. You could also equip Prime Reach and be hitting all of them all the time but I suppose we're trying to pretend like that isn't an option so we can prove a very narrow and extremely specific point. You could have also stood *slightly* farther back, or pointed your crosshair at any of the enemies to reduce the distance of your gap closer since it has a soft-lock on effect. 

That is with prime reach, spring loaded blade AND a +1 range riven. Again your ignorance of the game and current stance nerfs does not make them not be there.

[Acos]

11 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Either you dont know what momentum is, somehow thing that a half step on a horizontal swing (which is the most there should be on static combos) that allows free aim and turning with left and right is equivalent to the animation locks and/or forward movement or you are a DS3 baby rapier/dex/dual spammer. Which is just further proof you dont know jack S#&$ about any of the genres or games. YOU HAVE NO FORCED MOVEMENT IN ANY OF THOSE GAMES, ONLY CONTROLLED AND TRIGGERED.

Because the prior gap closer damaged enemies, 85% of all other stances gap closers damage enemies and IDK why you are dense, it doesnt matter, point is stop trying to say "everything is fine" when you obviously didnt even touch the game since the patch.

That is with prime reach, spring loaded blade AND a +1 range riven. Again your ignorance of the game and current stance nerfs does not make them not be there.

"Free turning" is not much different from swinging the camera around in Warframe. I've been doing it for years and it is still entirely possible. I have never felt "locked" in a certain direction or like I couldn't get out of a combo, before or after Phase 2. The momentum in Dark Souls is probably not as dramatic, but we also dont' attack with nearly the same animation speed in that game either. Regardless my point about there being momentum in that game and many others is still correct even if you arbitrarily decide that it has to reach a certain "range" before it counts. Your argument would hold even more weight (lol) if the momentum of your attacks didn't play an integral part of that games combat, but it does, so you doesn't. You're just wrong here, and it's blatantly obvious to anyone with a passing familiarity with the genre. 

I am curious what you mean by NO FORCED MOVEMENT IN ANY OF THOSE GAMES, ONLY CONTROLLED AND TRIGGERED. Do you not mean to use certain attacks in Warframe when you hit certain buttons? Like, are you confused when you fire your gun vs swinging your sword? Get back to me on that. 

The current gap closer hit all but 3 of the enemies you were fighting in your example that was specifically trying to prove how inconsistent it is, which is already laughably bad as far as demonstrating your point is concerned. Aside from purposefully using it poorly (or maybe you were really trying, I shouldn't assume) was mostly because you stood directly next to them when you executed the attack. I don't imagine you will address this point this time either in favor of telling me to get lost for the third time, but if you stood slightly back or used a different attack you would have hit everyone without any issue at all. Knowing that you had Primed Reach + Riven nonsense and still managed to whiff it mostly demonstrates to me further that you really don't grasp what you are doing. 

I don't think I am trying to imply that "everything is fine" (I wouldn't do that to the Devs), but I do definitely think there is a huge "learn to play" aspect to this update that a certain party of the player-base is refusing to participate in (yourself admittedly included). I do think you have some good points buried under your emotional frustration, but you seem more focused on proving how awful everything is, which isn't any more genuine than what you are accusing me of and probably isn't going to get your points the attention they deserve anyway. 

It's your ship to burn. 

[DoomFruit]

7 hours ago, Acos said:

I'm not arguing that the combat isn't smooth either; forward momentum is a natural aspect of melee in general and has been since Melee 2.0

Maybe for you. For me, successful melee combat relied on a complete absence of momentum. Using it in the sense of momentum as a physics concept actually makes sense here - where momentum is something that you need to overcome in order to change direction.

Forward momentum, or backward momentum or any momentum is an active detriment in a fast paced horde shooter. I rely on the ability to change direction instantly as the situation requires, whether to close with another enemy in order to hit both of them with the same swing, to move forwards to my objective or to put my current enemy in the line of fire of his friends so that I'm not being shot at.

Quick melee in pretty much all its forms had that. I could swing freely while moving in any direction at normal speed. Polearm quick melee was especially good in that I could swing freely while sprinting in any direction at full speed. That's why I loved my Lesion. I didn't even think of slotting maiming strike.

Right now, there are exactly 4 weapon stances which allow you to swing freely without interfering even slightly with your sideways or backwards movement. These are: polearms with shimmering blight, dual daggers with sinking talon, stanceless rapiers and stanceless machetes.

All the other stances, ALL of them, will either slow you down, stop you or actively push you in another direction while using them. This is a HUGE problem. For me, that kills all except 4 categories of melee weapons outright. Rapiers have a tiny hitbox on their swings, so I don't bother with them. Machetes are alright, but nothing special. Dual daggers have a slightly wider hitbox, but still not that impressive. Weapon range.. everything is pretty much identical nowadays, whether it's a pair of little daggers or a huge double-ended poleaxe.

Once again, polearms are the only category of weapon which has the perfect combination of free movement while attacking and hitting across a wide area.

The GIGANTIC buff that the Orthos Prime received is just icing on the cake.

[vaarnaaarne]

Yea the movement locks on Forward neutral combos are nonsensical in every case. Movement locks in general since Chimera have been complete nonsense. It really should make sense for all Forward neutrals to be combos that do exactly that: Move you forward at your sprint (or normal, if you aren't sprinting) speed. Momentum shifts in Forward RMB, and then neutral and neutral RMB for whacking things while stationary.

[supernils]

Please, stay rational. The new combos/stances are great, gameplay is really fluid. The changes to range are great. The broken mod nerfs are great.

Your critique seems to target mostly Heavy Attacks, which most critics seem to target. And I agree, there is some tuning to do, regarding combo counter and its use.

 

[DoomFruit]

51 minutes ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Yea the movement locks on Forward neutral combos are nonsensical in every case. Movement locks in general since Chimera have been complete nonsense. It really should make sense for all Forward neutrals to be combos that do exactly that: Move you forward at your sprint (or normal, if you aren't sprinting) speed. Momentum shifts in Forward RMB, and then neutral and neutral RMB for whacking things while stationary.

I don't want any kind of movement restrictions or forcing at all on the neutral combo. Quite often, I'm not going forwards, but sideways and sometimes even backwards while attacking. That's neutral territory and it should not under any circumstances affect my movement.

Forced movement or rooting on block combos is, I suppose, acceptable because you're explicitly inputting a modifier command, but plain ordinary melee? Absolutely not.

Also, I still can't buckshot my Euphona Prime straight from meleeing because of this stupid mode switch crap. That's exactly the situation where I'd want to use the EP in shotgun mode - especially since it has the same effective range as my melee weapon (damage falloff at 6 metres? Really?).

[-SW-PaStei]

This game died with channeling.

[vaarnaaarne]

There's actually one combo at least where the movement lock is in the right place, the Forward neutral of Blind Justice, since it ends with a lift strike and thus works best when it seamlessly chains to neutral or neutral RMB to take full advantage of the lift.

[DroopingPuppy]

50 minutes ago, -SW-PaStei said:

This game died with channeling.

Channeling is actually the second worst thing on melee system, second only to combo(that forces you to keep melee and exclude anything else to be effective, which is not making sense).

[-SW-PaStei]

3 hours ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Channeling is actually the second worst thing on melee system, second only to combo(that forces you to keep melee and exclude anything else to be effective, which is not making sense).

Ah, ok, so You don't play Warframe, cause You have no idea what you are talking about.

[Fractyr]

finally someone with common sense that thinks for himself. give this guy a nobel prize.

[Andele3025]

9 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

I don't want any kind of movement restrictions or forcing at all on the neutral combo. Quite often, I'm not going forwards, but sideways and sometimes even backwards while attacking. That's neutral territory and it should not under any circumstances affect my movement.

Forced movement or rooting on block combos is, I suppose, acceptable because you're explicitly inputting a modifier command, but plain ordinary melee? Absolutely not.

No animation locks on static and forward, steered forced movement on block forward (Not full animation lock where if you are strafing the combo just rushes you directly forward but like old/pre nerf Tempo Royale where its broken down to 3 sections for keyboard input AND controlled by camera), root with small forward movement on static block.

[DroopingPuppy]

8 hours ago, -SW-PaStei said:

Ah, ok, so You don't play Warframe, cause You have no idea what you are talking about.

WTH? I say channeling is sucks just because I play Warframe and I have used the melee weapons. The whole mechanism about channeling is just sucks because it is no more than 'more damage' stuff. There is no technique, there is no difference. There is only 'more damage by taxing', which is not only boresome components and also annoying. It must be removed for good and must be replaced by something meaningful, just as alert does.

Well, I admit that channeling is not toxic like alerts, because its existence harms no one. However it doesn't prove that channeling itself does something in melee gameplay. IT, JUST, DID, NOTHING.

It is not like removing charge attacks or anything else. Channeling does nothing for the gameplay, aside cause more damage per spend your energy(and removing corpse). It doesn't involved in the motions and attack style either. Just you need to turn it on and you get the benefit by taxing. Then why not to simply make the melee weapon powerful, rather than requires us to turn on it onerously?

 

Seriously, even infamous charge attacks do something on some specific weapons. But no, channeling does nothing. It doesn't have any purpose on the melee gameplay aside turn on some useful mods, and they are moved to the other rather than simply vanished. Personally I am not fond of the whole 'melee 2.0' contents because they destroyed quick melee and force me to throw away the melee weapon, but I can't defend channeling because it is effectively nonexistent component in the game.

Edited November 6, 2019 by DroopingPuppy

[Andele3025]

17 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

IT, JUST, DID, NOTHING.

It is not like removing charge attacks or anything else. Channeling does nothing for the gameplay, aside cause more damage per spend your energy(and removing corpse). It doesn't involved in the motions and attack style either. Just you need to turn it on and you get the benefit by taxing. Then why not to simply make the melee weapon powerful, rather than requires us to turn on it onerously?

It was .5 more combo counter worth of damage for 2 energy a hit if you needed it and optional lifesteal, movement speed or stealth.
Channeling itself being removed isnt as much of a issue as life strike not working on every attack (maybe with a energy cost when you actually did heal from it), the movement speed requiring you to heavy attack thus weakening stealth setups and there being no "corpses are invisible on kill" mod for either melee or the parazon.

Also it would help if heavy attacks did anything unless its one of the blessed weapons that had slash procs on charge attacks but thats a different issue.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Andele3025

[DroopingPuppy]

1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:

It was .5 more combo counter worth of damage for 2 energy a hit if you needed it and optional lifesteal, movement speed or stealth.
Channeling itself being removed isnt as much of a issue as life strike not working on every attack (maybe with a energy cost when you actually did heal from it), the movement speed requiring you to heavy attack thus weakening stealth setups and there being no "corpses are invisible on kill" mod for either melee or the parazon.

Also it would help if heavy attacks did anything unless its one of the blessed weapons that had slash procs on charge attacks but thats a different issue.

Yeah, Life Strike is useful, but that is the usefulness of Life Strike, NOT channeling stuffs. The only problem on Life Strike was it was bounded to the meaningless channeling system.

Also it is sorry to hear that there is no corpse removal now.

And I don't wank to defend melee 2.0 at all. I just want to say that channeling is just an annoying tax stuff, rather than a functional component in the melee system. It can be given by a simply passive effects rather than an option to turn it on.

[kapn655321]

On 2019-11-02 at 12:56 AM, Pitvh said:

say goodbye to long arbitrations

Enemy health scaling needs to get under control for this update to make sense.
It's still quirky and needs work, but that is the other side of this story that affects these changes more dramatically than melee can change currently.

[-SW-PaStei]

On 2019-11-06 at 7:00 AM, DroopingPuppy said:

"Blah, blah, blah"

I still think that You don't play Warframe. WALL ATTACK JUST. DO. NOTHING. Channeling have plenty of possibilities.

Channeling is effective through it's simplicity. All You need are mods to make it to work as you like and/or fit melee weapons combo + body's vaporize.

New system limits you. If you can't see it, You are blind.