Melee is outta hand

[Tachmag]

Melee is now outright ridiculous. 100% damage block, easy guard combos and slam cancels have made melee waaaaaay to powerful in Conclave.

To address this, I suggest the following:

> Make melee block damage reduction not 100%. If that's not possible, reduce the block angle to 0° (effectively removing blocks).

> Remove the knockdown effect from slams. Slams are now risk free so they no longer need to knockdown. Knockdowns were initially added to slams because they made you vulnerable after their execution and even a well executed slam would end up getting you killed, as the slam victim could shoot you while you were in the slam recovery animation thus making slams a high risk, low reward attack. This is no longer the case, as the slam recovery animation can now be rolled out of.

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

15 minutes ago, Tachmag said:

> Make melee block damage reduction not 100%. If that's not possible, reduce the block angle to 0° (effectively removing blocks).

Spoiler

 

THE GAMEPLAY 

1. Equipping Melee and Manual Blocking!

One of the bigger changes added to the Melee Rework: Phase 1 was the addition of fluid swapping between melee and Primary / Secondary Weapons. However, some players preferred the ability to manually block, making some of their builds less easy to manage. While we restored manual blocking for players playing ‘sword alone’, it wasn’t quite the same.  

The good news is that both functions are back! Holding the weapon swap button will equip melee fully again, and the aim button will manually block when in this mode. Holding the Weapon Swap button while Exalted Melee is in play will also lock you into Exalted Melee mode! (Don’t worry, Auto Blocking is still a thing!)

We also have redesigned the utility of blocking: Blocking will now prevent 100% of damage,  with a blocking angle that is dependent on the melee weapon equipped. All successful Blocks will also add to the new Combo Counter!

 

  

 

In the above example, sword and shield weapons (such as the Silva & Aegis) have a blocking angle of 70 degrees, centered on the front of the player, where as a dagger weapon (such as the Dark Dagger) will only have a blocking angle of 45 degrees. (Previously all weapons had a locked blocking angle of 45 degrees upon the introduction of Auto Blocking.) 

 

so people are making use of knowing what the angle of there block is how is that bad?

Edited November 2, 2019 by (XB1)ShadowBlood89

[Tachmag]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

THE GAMEPLAY 

1. Equipping Melee and Manual Blocking!

One of the bigger changes added to the Melee Rework: Phase 1 was the addition of fluid swapping between melee and Primary / Secondary Weapons. However, some players preferred the ability to manually block, making some of their builds less easy to manage. While we restored manual blocking for players playing ‘sword alone’, it wasn’t quite the same.  

The good news is that both functions are back! Holding the weapon swap button will equip melee fully again, and the aim button will manually block when in this mode. Holding the Weapon Swap button while Exalted Melee is in play will also lock you into Exalted Melee mode! (Don’t worry, Auto Blocking is still a thing!)

We also have redesigned the utility of blocking: Blocking will now prevent 100% of damage,  with a blocking angle that is dependent on the melee weapon equipped. All successful Blocks will also add to the new Combo Counter!

 

  

 

In the above example, sword and shield weapons (such as the Silva & Aegis) have a blocking angle of 70 degrees, centered on the front of the player, where as a dagger weapon (such as the Dark Dagger) will only have a blocking angle of 45 degrees. (Previously all weapons had a locked blocking angle of 45 degrees upon the introduction of Auto Blocking.) 

 

so people are making use of knowing what the angle of there block is how is that bad?

People are getting 100% damage reduction from doing nothing but holding a key.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

2 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

THE GAMEPLAY 

1. Equipping Melee and Manual Blocking!

One of the bigger changes added to the Melee Rework: Phase 1 was the addition of fluid swapping between melee and Primary / Secondary Weapons. However, some players preferred the ability to manually block, making some of their builds less easy to manage. While we restored manual blocking for players playing ‘sword alone’, it wasn’t quite the same.  

The good news is that both functions are back! Holding the weapon swap button will equip melee fully again, and the aim button will manually block when in this mode. Holding the Weapon Swap button while Exalted Melee is in play will also lock you into Exalted Melee mode! (Don’t worry, Auto Blocking is still a thing!)

We also have redesigned the utility of blocking: Blocking will now prevent 100% of damage,  with a blocking angle that is dependent on the melee weapon equipped. All successful Blocks will also add to the new Combo Counter!

 

  

 

In the above example, sword and shield weapons (such as the Silva & Aegis) have a blocking angle of 70 degrees, centered on the front of the player, where as a dagger weapon (such as the Dark Dagger) will only have a blocking angle of 45 degrees. (Previously all weapons had a locked blocking angle of 45 degrees upon the introduction of Auto Blocking.) 

 

so people are making use of knowing what the angle of there block is how is that bad?

In conclave, at least on xbox, it is typical to always have your target in front of you, relative to your position. You may not be able to hit your target, but you can definitely have them within your frontal vision. Giving melee block angles >20° makes melee users damn near invincible. It means the only way to kill someone is to knock them down or other cheesy ways to disable their controller/keyboard. Think Titania 3, Atlas Petrify/Ult, Frost Ult. We are not saying to alter this setting in PvE, we are saying that it would be wise to change this for Conclave. Which DE has the power to do.

[75heaven]

powerful???

Melee players are just targets now...

They can not even touch you, ok ?

[Kontrollo]

6 hours ago, Tachmag said:

Melee is now outright ridiculous. 100% damage block, easy guard combos and slam cancels have made melee waaaaaay to powerful in Conclave.

To address this, I suggest the following:

> Make melee block damage reduction not 100%. If that's not possible, reduce the block angle to 0° (effectively removing blocks).

> Remove the knockdown effect from slams. Slams are now risk free so they no longer need to knockdown. Knockdowns were initially added to slams because they made you vulnerable after their execution and even a well executed slam would end up getting you killed, as the slam victim could shoot you while you were in the slam recovery animation thus making slams a high risk, low reward attack. This is no longer the case, as the slam recovery animation can now be rolled out of.

Disclaimer: I haven't tried it yet.

However, the suggestions sound reasonable. Also, iirc it should be possible for them to individually change the block damage percentage on weapons.

Maybe slams could still impair instead, on slower weapons? Again, haven't tried it yet.

[Rubbertubtub01]

You can just hold block while casually walking up to someone firing everything into you. Then you press E once triggering a 1 shot combo. Getting rewarded for no effort...

[75heaven]

16 hours ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

You can just hold block while casually walking up to someone firing everything into you. Then you press E once triggering a 1 shot combo. Getting rewarded for no effort...

Only rookies stand still when they shooting...You do this to the really pvp players, you can know the hell.

[Rubbertubtub01]

6 hours ago, 75heaven said:

Only rookies stand still when they shooting...You do this to the really pvp players, you can know the hell.

I have over 100,000 conclave kills. If a new player tried to block/melee me I'd kill them. But imagine if I was the one using the melee...

[Aadi880]

TTK is way to long in warframe's PVP.

Honestly, though, a rubico taking 4 hits with players jumping around like crazy while with sluggish firerate makes it impossible for PVP to work at all, let alone melee damage block.

Conclave has been broken since the parkour update. while the movement became faster, the shots to kill in guns did not decrease.

All weapons should have a damage buff to reduce TTK to compensate with the fast movement. Melee weapons should only 100% block on a 20-18 degree angle. There should be some accuracy penalty when aim-gliding with a gun. Melee slam should only move players away from the impact and not knock down enemies, or add a cooldown to prevent slam attacks from being spammed. Introduce a parry mechanic where two enemies melee-ing  each other at the same time results in a parry, where both are staggered backwards. If one was blocking, the stagger the attacker. melee VS melee blocks should have a block angle depending on the incoming blade's attack angle (ie if the incoming attack is an uppercut, then the blocker will have to aim down to block it).

[Tachmag]

3 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

TTK is way to long in warframe's PVP.

Honestly, though, a rubico taking 4 hits with players jumping around like crazy while with sluggish firerate makes it impossible for PVP to work at all, let alone melee damage block.

Rubico only takes 4 hits against the tankiest of tank frames. It takes 3 hits against everything else and 2.67 fire rate is far from sluggish. In fact, the Rubico is pretty overpowered.

 

3 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

There should be some accuracy penalty when aim-gliding with a gun.

The whole point of entering an aim glide is boosting your weapon's accuracy but in return slowing you down, which in turn makes your trajectory predictable. If you have trouble hitting enemies aim gliding, then the problem lies within you.

 

3 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

 

All weapons should have a damage buff to reduce TTK to compensate with the fast movement. Melee weapons should only 100% block on a 20-18 degree angle. There should be some accuracy penalty when aim-gliding with a gun. Melee slam should only move players away from the impact and not knock down enemies, or add a cooldown to prevent slam attacks from being spammed. Introduce a parry mechanic where two enemies melee-ing  each other at the same time results in a parry, where both are staggered backwards. If one was blocking, the stagger the attacker. melee VS melee blocks should have a block angle depending on the incoming blade's attack angle (ie if the incoming attack is an uppercut, then the blocker will have to aim down to block it).

Melee weapons shouldn't 100%, period. Holding down a key is not something that should reward complete invulnerability.

That stagger mechanic would make melee all about turtling as the attacker would always be punished. Melee should reward playing offensively,, not holding down block to win. That's the whole point of this post.

[Aadi880]

28 minutes ago, Tachmag said:

The whole point of entering an aim glide is boosting your weapon's accuracy but in return slowing you down, which in turn makes your trajectory predictable. If you have trouble hitting enemies aim gliding, then the problem lies within you.

My problem is not with being able to hit players while airborne. I'm talking about this as a whole.
And the fact is, your trajectory is not predictable.
Its a dumb idea to just aim glide normally, and conclave players know that very well, and so they make their glide unpredictable.
how so?
Dodge rolling and drop-kicking changes your trajectory while airborne, can affect in any direction, can apply momentum in said direction, and you can do it again at another hop . See where we are getting here? investment in mobility mods and you become very hard to hit while airborne, especially if you play as mirage.

Ever since parkour 2.0 came out, ground slams to knock down players have never been easier. There is no penalty to do this multiple times, nor there is any cool down timer with ground slams. You can ground slam the same players and effectively stun lock them.

28 minutes ago, Tachmag said:

That stagger mechanic would make melee all about turtling as the attacker would always be punished. Melee should reward playing offensively,, not holding down block to win. That's the whole point of this post.

I don't think you understand my post. this 20-18 degree block angle is not relative to the player, its relative to the BLADE.  The current block system works with having your view being locked on to the player. I'm talking about locking it on the player's sword instead. This is harder to block, as the blade can come in any direction. This will not protect the player from slide attacks, because the attacking sword is hitting the knees, while the defending sword is defending the chest. if 20 degrees feel too much, then reduce it to 10 then.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Aadi880

[Tachmag]

22 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

My problem is not with being able to hit players while airborne. I'm talking about this as a whole.
And the fact is, your trajectory is not predictable.
Its a dumb idea to just aim glide normally, and conclave players know that very well, and so they make their glide unpredictable.
how so?
Dodge rolling and drop-kicking changes your trajectory while airborne, can affect in any direction, can apply momentum in said direction, and you can do it again at another hop . See where we are getting here? investment in mobility mods and you become very hard to hit while airborne, especially if you play as mirage.

Ever since parkour 2.0 came out, ground slams to knock down players have never been easier. There is no penalty to do this multiple times, nor there is any cool down timer with ground slams. You can ground slam the same players and effectively stun lock them.

I don't think you understand my post. this 20-18 degree block angle is not relative to the player, its relative to the BLADE.  The current block system works with having your view being locked on to the player. I'm talking about locking it on the player's sword instead. This is harder to block, as the blade can come in any direction. This will not protect the player from slide attacks, because the attacking sword is hitting the knees, while the defending sword is defending the chest. if 20 degrees feel too much, then reduce it to 10 then.

Conclave players aren't aimgliding when doing that. They're falling.

 

As for the block, how would that work with bullets? Not to mention that would force players to learn every single stance combo adding a needless memory skill curve.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Tachmag

[Kontrollo]

Suggestion -- simple fixes for the time being:

• Previously, highest block percentage was 65%, but that was a single weapon, afaict. So set the block percentage on all weapons to 60% for now.
• Fix Telos Boltace ragdolling people
• Replace all knockdowns with impairs, pending reevaluation