DE's Constant Underhand

[(PSN)Crixus044]

I'm always looking out for stealth nerfs, stuff that is changed without notice, or tryna slip under the radar. This new melee change, easily one of many. Why is it that DE is basically fighting the players directly instead of in their game? Let me list some examples

U20, DE changed the way stealth is multiplied. Stealth damage used to be a separate 8 x multiplier. This was bugged to double and triple dip with DoT and gas. The change they brought was said to fix this problem, but what they did not say, was that they made stealth damage multipliers +700% to crit damage, not scaling with crit multiplier mods or crit levels. They also added a feature that makes the stealth multiplier scale with the weapons level,  starting from +100% at level 0. There is never been a mention of this in any content or post. But you can check it yourself.

Chroma Rework, this may be a bit of a stretch, but the way they changed the armor modifier a Vex armor was a massive Nerf. The damage buff was fixed because of a long-standing bug where it double and triple dipped with elemental weapons an elemental mods. This was a big fix for them that had a dedicated prime time, but the armor multiplier was never really mentioned until the final day.

Melee 3.0, where to begin. First that start with blood rush. We were well aware that a change was coming to blood rush. They never made a mention nor does the Post mention that it now scales with base crit. They made only mention of the new percentage, but critical chance mods are now additive with blood rush. This is a significant Nerf and only continues a trend of DE putting out changes with underhanded additions.

Amalgam javlok magazine warp, no mention.

There has been a trend of Elemental Weapons being nerfed to have IPS + Elemental. This may have been included in the notes, therefore it's not exactly stealth, but it is a change that hasn't gone unnoticed by me, but it's definitely been unnoticed by majority of the community. This is a significant Nerf and change to weapons have been unique for so many years.

Finally, I move on to one of the biggest Nerfs of all. Melee base damage. The idea of this base damage buff was to compensate for the combo multiplier. "Since the Combo Multiplier will apply to Heavy Attacks only, the base damage of all melee weapons has significantly increased."

This led to the assumption that all weapons would get a nigh universal buff of 3 to 4 times maybe even 2.5. But certain weapons have barely been buffed by 2. Zenistar has received a massive Nerf. These base damage Buffs do not compensate for the combo multiplier. This was basically a melee rebalance,  mask in a rework of melee itself. If you wanted to rebalance, you should have just said so.

"MASTERY RANK 0-3

Gram

Damage increased from 100 to 160

Range increased from 1 to 2.8"

This damage increase is equivalent to 1.6x combo multiplier. Less than the 2x combo that 15 hits gave previously.

 I'm a little bit tired of these changes and how they're implemented. I don't know who's doing the number balancing on your end of the spectrum, but he needs to get a little bit more knowledge about the game before he starts pulling out changes to us players who know much better. If you wanted to have an opinion before release, you should have consulted with your design Council. They are specifically in the game to give small-sized highly educated highly experienced feedback and opinions on the game. None of this went through them. I personally would have loved to give some balancing on these weapons. Math is my specialty. If I were to rebalance something, I would have done it justice. I'm sure there are many other players who are very mathematically Savvy, would have done similar work that I claim. It's maybe too early to say now, but believe me, give it a few weeks, and you'll be back to the knobs.

Crixus044 out

Edited November 2, 2019 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Skaleek]

I 100% agree. Base elemental weapons being diluted into all having IPS + element is garbage. Takes away from the identity of said weapons. Oh well.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

15 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

I 100% agree. Base elemental weapons being diluted into all having IPS + element is garbage. Takes away from the identity of said weapons. Oh well.

Agreed, though i wouldn't just say "oh well". We gotta push for this to be reversed. Having some weapons with mix base is fine. All? Hell no

[Xzorn]

A lot of players don't realize that a good maybe 1/4 of changes in the game aren't documented.

Stagger animation priority changes, Banshee's Savage Silence, Mirage lighting interactions, numerous enemy spawn script changes. Lots of things get changed indirectly as well from working on other aspects like Nyx's Absorb vulnerability window, Hysteria melee block vulnerability, Polearm momentum from quick attacks. Half the time I can't tell if it's DE being lets say, "unreliable" or just being inept and not knowing they're affected other parts of the game by changing something.

I think what annoyed me most about this update besides the strange hatred towards pure elemental weapons was the underhanded mod and mechanic changes to simply nerf melee as a whole and the painfully obvious Riven bait changes. Glaive Prime 164 Damage but new Pathocyst that no one probably used 262. They did the same thing with bow changes. Dread got the least boost of all the bows simply because it was used. They're double dipping the Riven system into weapon stats just to push the market around when that was the opposite of their claims for the Riven system (If you ever believed that claim to start).

I think my favorite change was this though...

Valkyr’s Claws

• Parry Angle set to 60

Hah oh and they just really don't like Catchmoon. That's what happens when there's no scaling to oppose Power Creep though. Everything just gets nerfed. It's impossible to have a static level 100 and consistent Power Creep. Sonicor is more useful than Catchmoon against lvl 300 Armor. But the game isn't made for that level right? So lets all farm new stronger Kuva weapons in an RNG layered loop with ever worsening pay2skip mechanics to shoot more lvl 50's with!

Apparently Condition Overload was a documented 3 year unintended interaction. That's not good either way you play the cards DE.

This game....

[DeMonkey]

I still reckon Iron Staff has still got the shortest end of the stick overall (geddit), it got an increased block angle and heavy attack functionality.

There's still nothing to distinguish it from any other melee weapon. A quick rundown of my problems:

It has a base range of 3.5, from what I can see this is the largest base range in the game. Whoopee. Unfortunately, due to the fact that you can't equip a Riven, every other basic melee weapon that can will surpass the Iron Staff in range. For example, my Silva and Aegis Prime currently has a range of 7.15, the Iron Staff only has 6.5. A Mace and Shield has a longer range than the mythical cudgel that could grow to any length?

Basic weapons got enough of a damage buff to be fairly close to the Iron Staff in terms of base damage, the Orthos Prime for example now has 234 damage, War has 250, the Silva & Aegis Prime has 318. The Iron Staff still has... 250, like before. It's only plus side here is that it benefits from Power Strength, something you can't really get away with building a ton of.

It still cannot use certain Acolyte mods, and at this point there is literally no justification as to why.

You still take damage whilst blocking with it.

And most importantly, it costs 5 sodding energy per second.

I'm not going to say underhanded, that would imply thought. I don't think thought went into this, I think there was too much pressure and thus it was ultimately done poorly. Corners were cut, proper testing wasn't performed, consequences were not evaluated.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

9 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Stagger animation priority changes, Banshee's Savage Silence, Mirage lighting interactions, numerous enemy spawn script changes. Lots of things get changed indirectly as well from working on other aspects like Nyx's Absorb vulnerability window, Hysteria melee block vulnerability, Polearm momentum from quick attacks. Half the time I can't tell if it's DE being lets say, "unreliable" or just being inept and not knowing they're affected other parts of the game by changing something.

Yo, exactly. I would've listed these, but i focused on what general people would recognize easiest, but you're right. There's even more in hidden bug fixes that tend to backfire and break things later on. Remember, chroma was originally bugged as a stealth patch to fix him buffing his toxin 2, and that made it even worse lol

9 hours ago, Xzorn said:

They did the same thing with bow changes. Dread got the least boost of all the bows simply because it was used.

I'm getting tired of "weapon usage=strength of weapon". Has it occurred to them that a weapon can be moderate AND popular? Because it's cool, like the jat kittag. Or easy to get, or have a unique theme, like dread.

9 hours ago, Xzorn said:

That's what happens when there's no scaling to oppose Power Creep though. Everything just gets nerfed.

It's like cramming a full jar of cookies, you can either get a bigger jar, or break a couple cookies. In this case, DE broke our cookies. I always say "power increase+static levels= power creep. Power increase+level increase=progression"

9 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

still reckon Iron Staff has still got the shortest end of the stick overall (geddit), it got an increased block angle and heavy attack functionality.

No one:

Guy in background: "I geeett it"

I feel bad for ya dude. Your frame has been hit like a truck with nerfs. The rework was cool overall, but we had to say goodbye to a few good things and now, "Dramatic Finish!"

[Nssheepster]

Nice to see someone that's done the maths..... So now I know exactly WHY I am taking more hits to kill everything.

Simple Fix IMO.... Remove Heavy Attacks. Add the damage they represented back into our regular attacks. Stop adding BS to the melee system, because if it's slower and/or more complicated than just shooting something in the face, then we're all going to JUST shoot things in the face.

Melee needs to be more damaging than range to compensate for the inherent danger of it, or we'll never use it.... And right now, I'm never using it because it's not damaging enough to kill things in even half the time it takes me to just shoot it.

[LSG501]

I'm kind in a bit of limbo over the new rework

They've given us movement while attacking, which is actually good, but some of the weapons actually make you move so slow the enemies can run away from you while you're trying to hit them (telos boltace is a perfect example).  And I do like that we can now finally break away from combos.  I do like the fact that some weapons have had necessary buffs to things like their attack speed (hammers) or base range (daggers for example) but I'm very much of the view that weapons should be brought up to parity, not nerf things to parity. 

But then at the same time we've got range nerfs on the long range weapons and, at least in my testing the weapons, I used the most are actually performing worse... some of it is down to the way the mods have been nerfed, I mean 'changed' but some of it is just straight up down to the weapon getting less adjustment to compensate for the multiplier (some say it does work with normal attacks, not so sure personally).   This isn't a case of trying to run for hours either, I'm noticing it at sortie levels....which would be fine if enemies capped at those sorts of levels but arbitrations can get to those numbers pretty quickly and will keep going higher.

I can live with the changes to blocking, they kind of make sense but then we get the 'juggle slam' as I'll call it which for all intense purposes is basically the same attack as the slam attack just with a new visual and floating mechanics on the enemies.... no idea why they needed to give us two attacks which are basically the same other than 'it looks shiny' for the newbies.  

Then we get the weirdness of things like the zenistar or wolf hammer etc which uses the heavy attack to launch the disc (not the only one) which essentially means it has no heavy attack....

 

 

 

[DOOMPATRIOT]

Who cares, you are still one- hitting anemies lvl 35, this game is deadbrain Easy, DE trying to kind of change that doesn't seem to be a bad idea.

I mean come on, yall aren't against lvl beyond 100, you are able to kill everthing with a single button pushed, also you don't like meelee now? Just don't use it, Like really yall complaing about the wrong stuff here.

[DatDarkOne]

5 hours ago, DOOMPATRIOT said:

I mean come on, yall aren't against lvl beyond 100, you are able to kill everthing with a single button pushed, also you don't like meelee now? Just don't use it, Like really yall complaing about the wrong stuff here

Really?!?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

Really?!?

Lol I think he was being sarcastic. That's the only logical explanation

[sitfesz]

These undocumented changes are terrible. Why aren't they in the patch notes at least? Why do people have to do hours of field testing to get actual information of mods? Things are just not what their description is about.

It feels like it would have been too awkward to announce it publicly and deal with the players, so they tried to sneak those change in.

I understand the damage needed a nerf, but they should have said it straight instead of double stealth nerfing stuff.

I'm still pissed that polearms have ridiculously low base range now. How is polearm range 3 while dual kamas is 2.4?

[98Octane]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Lol I think he was being sarcastic. That's the only logical explanation

goodluck finding logic in forums

[Goodwill]

I'm just going to assume that whoever writes up the patch notes didn't get the full run down by the dev team. I don't think there'd be any legitimate reason why they left them out other than, we forgot.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

21 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

you should have consulted with your design Council.

I've been saying for years that DE needs to consult with the council on all major changes. DE doesn't have anywhere near the in-game experience as they're player base, and their internal testing alone is highly inadequate. There's so much the council could identify before hand that DE misses.

As of right now the council is mostly meaningless. It's rarely consulted on major changes, and when it is it's not exactly heeded. A recent example being the Nyx rework. The council was given specific parameters on replacement of Psychic Bolts, and energy with other abilities. In the end the suggestions provided were completely disregarded and they kept Psychic Bolts. I like the changes to it they made, but it in no way made Absorb more practical. The weapon damage buff to Absorb was nice, but 2 seconds of consulting the council would've told them that the dynamic damage reflection from Absorb was still going to be completely useless. 

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

As of right now the council is mostly meaningless.

The council is meaningless for more reasons than just "they aren't consulted". If the council is to have any value then it needs a re-jig, just as the partners program does.

What is it I've heard Council chat referred to? Piss coloured Region chat, iirc.

Edited November 3, 2019 by DeMonkey

[--END--Rikutatis]

I stopped playing WF around June-July to play another game and when I saw this update I was half-excited that it might give me a reason to install the game again to try it out. That excitment immediately faded when I read the patch notes and watched the videos. 

As an outside observer I can understand why melee weapons got a hard nerf on the high end, melee weapons were significantly stronger than everything else save perhaps snipers. DE appears to have zero intentions of raising the level of the enemies we fight against, 80-120 seems to be their sweet spot for "endgame" (which is a joke considering we one shot those enemies and have builds that take zero damage from them). But w/e fine, I can sort of understand. However understanding doesn't translate to feeling it. Condition overload was my favorite mod in the game, I was never a spin 2 win blood rush boi. 90% of my zaws were built for status and CO, they can all go to the trash bin now. I'd have to make new crit based zaws now. The vast majority of my most used and most forma'ed melee weapons are also built for CO. Most of my melee rivens were also rolled for status builds. Dozens if not hundreds of hours worth of grind and farm gone to waste. But I mean, fine w/e. I've adapted before. 

But then Kuva Lich just seems like this obnoxious and gigantic grind of layer upon layer of RNG that you can just pay to skip with platinum. In that amazing sweet spot of 70 to 120. Wow. No, thank you. I'll just wait for the next cinematic quest, at least WF's story and lore are still cool.

WF needs more stuff like Operation Hostile Mergers, disruption is actually a pretty good endless mode IMO, that was the best addition to the game in 2019 (not that there were that many to begin with...)

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

The council is meaningless for more reasons than just "they aren't consulted". If the council is to have any value then it needs a re-jig, just as the partners program does.

What is it I've heard Council chat referred to? Piss coloured Region chat, iirc.

You're not wrong. 

[Xzorn]

5 hours ago, sitfesz said:

I understand the damage needed a nerf, but they should have said it straight instead of double stealth nerfing stuff.

 

I mostly bring this up because of a global flaw in the game but...  Did melee need to be nerfed?

It was a similar situation to old Chroma. Yes they both did a lot of damage but they also couldn't survive to make use of that damage. The problem essentially solved itself. You won't see most Endurance runs being done with melee outside invisibility because it's simply way too much damage intake since a player's ability to stay alive comes into question long before their ability to kill enemies. Melee also still clobbers lvl 100 like they're nothing in "typical" play. So what did they accomplish?

Similar to their Chroma nerf in attempts to not have him one-shot Eidolons; I'd say they accomplished nothing while causing problems outside a fortune in Forma, Exalted weapon comparison being most notable. Mods now being broken, Base Melee attacks still bound by the combo meter though slightly less.

The audience most affected by the global nerf esp the destruction of Zenistar is the very small minority of Endurance runners left otherwise it just seems like a huge mess for easier combos which they could have just done anyways and two features that players will likely not use much. ie Lift and Heavy Attacks.

[Tonberryc]

Just to add to the list of recent hidden changes:

• Stealth affinity bonus multipliers for everything except melee finishers and sleeping enemies were silently removed in 25.8.1. No acknowledgement from DE despite multiple bug reports.
• Enemies spawned with paused AI in the Simulacrum are instantly put into the alerted status even with an invisible warframe spawning them. Most likely to further hide the changes to stealth gameplay.
• The range and speed at which enemies become alerted was massively increased around Update 25.7. Trying to complete a mission without alerting enemies is nearly impossible without an invisibility frame.

These changes are not only hidden, but also poorly implemented. There are numerous bugs related to enemies becoming alerted without line of sight, and the stealth affinity bonus being randomly triggered by non-stealth conditions. The two MR test (9 & 19) are also incredibly difficult because of the excessive alert range, and have been left in this state for over a month.

Edit: Simulacrum bug responsible for stealth multipliers being wrong. Not all missions seem to be affected.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Tonberryc

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 2019-11-03 at 6:56 AM, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I've been saying for years that DE needs to consult with the council on all major changes. DE doesn't have anywhere near the in-game experience as they're player base, and their internal testing alone is highly inadequate. There's so much the council could identify before hand that DE misses.

As of right now the council is mostly meaningless. It's rarely consulted on major changes, and when it is it's not exactly heeded. A recent example being the Nyx rework. The council was given specific parameters on replacement of Psychic Bolts, and energy with other abilities. In the end the suggestions provided were completely disregarded and they kept Psychic Bolts. I like the changes to it they made, but it in no way made Absorb more practical. The weapon damage buff to Absorb was nice, but 2 seconds of consulting the council would've told them that the dynamic damage reflection from Absorb was still going to be completely useless. 

Recent updates have proven that DE's keyword aggregator and generic public opinion does not work. If these are the conclusions they've been coming to, then it's time for them to change. Maybe the massive uproar of this update will fix that.

[ciTiger]

The technology isn't there yet.

Council... What council?

Seriously though... People will eventually find out why not just say it outright?

At least we can prepare! Or try....

[Raikh]

Am 2.11.2019 um 15:40 schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

Agreed, though i wouldn't just say "oh well". We gotta push for this to be reversed. Having some weapons with mix base is fine. All? Hell no

While I agree with the majority of your post, the change to IPS + element from pure element improved most of the weapons it affected. Especially Lacera and Twin basolk since pure status weapons ususally want slash procs and generally multiple status effects to stack CO higher without needing external help. While it certainly takes a bit fo their identity away and there surely is place for pure elemental weapons it is also the case that most pure elemental weapons are just worse than their IPS counterparts, specfically due to Slash.

I personally don't feel like making weapons worse for a bit of flavor that mostly impacts the weapon negatively in actual gameplay.

[Miyabi-sama]

В 02.11.2019 в 18:05, Xzorn сказал:

Banshee's Savage Silence

Hey hey, what's wrong with that? What did they change?

[Miyabi-sama]

You know, I never really suggested something in the forums by the one simple reason:

I don't have a slightest clue what DE is aiming for and want to achieve with each change.

I don't believe anyone does. There was so much contradicting updates it just makes head go dizzy.

How the hell people have to make suggestions if they don't know the "final goal"?

How the hell people should report bugs considering elusive patchnotes?