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Why killing wukong and iron staff

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4 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

This statement is the definition of hyperbole. In the time I've played Wukong, I've seen little reason to use his 4 because there are weapons that can pretty much fulfill the same purpose without being a needless energy drain. It doesn't help that it has its own Combo Counter which can be instantly lost when it deactivates or by touching a nullifier. The only time I've found myself using it are in the scant weapon limitation Sortie missions. 

Furthermore, this doesn't hurt his other abilities in the slightest. Saying this makes him as bad as pre-rework Wukong is absolutely laughable.

It's true that wukong is still better/more versatile than he was before the rework, but his 4 was still one of his best niche in game post-rework. The energy drain is definitely manageable, and it provides you best melee range and best base melee damage (ofc before the recent melee update). Considering (post modding) 60% sc w/ CO+red crit potential w/ gladiator set, it easily out perform most top tier melee even with good rivens. And above all, killing with such an ability is a great fancy fun.

3 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Considering I can go over an hour in Mot and 20 waves in Lua Disruption as Wukong without ever needing to use his 4. I think you just need to learn how to play him properly or get better weapons if Iron Staff was such a crutch for you.

going over an hour in Mot is more about survivability and doesn't have much to do with the tier of melee so I have no idea why you are mentioning this. BTW I am sure before the melee update iron staff's damage can outperform wukong's survivability by a huge margin in mot, as I can solo mot with wukong for ~90min before his survivability falling short, though iron staff was still able to output and kill fast enough.

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7 hours ago, 1thurts said:

I hate this melee update so much.

This affect all exalted melee, but probably wukong hurts most, as excal still has his 20m blade and he never cared about combo multiplier any day, Valkyr's 4 is more about the invulnerability, and baruuk is not a frame focusing on his 4.

Excal actually got buffed.

Excal's chromatic blade augment is where it's at for him. The thing about Chromatic blade is that it REDUCES the number of procs you can get off your melee. So the fact you need less procs to do more damage means Excal's overall TTK has gone through the roof. Since he would have had to jump through lots of hoops to get the same performance out of old CO.

It's especially notable when you realize he can build for a 100% status, pure corrosive/heat build. Double especially when you realize that he gets finisher boosted damage from his 2.

Excal can butcher a group of level 150 heavy gunners in a matter of seconds.

It's really just crit exalted that got screwed over, as it turns out. Valkyr, Wukong, they made off worse because they lean on crit in addition to status.

Edited by XaoGarrent
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3 hours ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Don't act surprise, with it's sweet 5 dispo, anyone should use the gram over everything. Period. 🙂

jokes aside, I'm pretty sure they'll do something with exalted weapons in the future.. 

THOUGH I'm not mad about the range nerf, it had to be done, I'm sorry.

Hopefully that would happen soon enough.

I am not mad about the range nerf either, as nerf to long range melee is expected and important for the balance of the whole melee system. I was only pointing out the nerf iron staff got from the update.

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2 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Excal actually got buffed.

Excal's chromatic blade augment is where it's at for him. The thing about Chromatic blade is that it REDUCES the number of procs you can get off your melee. So the fact you need less procs to do more damage means Excal's overall TTK has gone through the roof. Since he would have had to jump through lots of hoops to get the same performance out of old CO.

It's especially notable when you realize he can build for a 100% status, pure corrosive/heat build. Double especially when you realize that he gets finisher boosted damage from his 2.

Excal can butcher a group of level 150 heavy gunners in a matter of seconds.

It's really just crit exalted that got screwed over, as it turns out. Valkyr, Wukong, they made off worse because they lean on crit in addition to status.

Not to mention that with the 2.8m range (or 5.8 with Primed Reach) Excal can now hit enemies with both the sword and the wave more reliably than ever.

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Not to mention that with the 2.8m range (or 5.8 with Primed Reach) Excal can now hit enemies with both the sword and the wave more reliably than ever.

I completely forgot about this.

I could be wrong, but I *BELIEVE* if both the wave and the sword hit they can both proc status at the same time, and some effects that proc off of status can take effect on the same frame. I'd been noticing that I was getting health back from Healing Return from a single swing and I'm starting to think that may have been why.

I need to test this more, because one of the only things that's plagued Excal is that he's kinda squishy and lacks a reliable skill based method of durability or regaining health.

One way or the other, he seems real, real good right now.

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7 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Excal actually got buffed.

Excal's chromatic blade augment is where it's at for him. The thing about Chromatic blade is that it REDUCES the number of procs you can get off your melee. So the fact you need less procs to do more damage means Excal's overall TTK has gone through the roof. Since he would have had to jump through lots of hoops to get the same performance out of old CO.

It's especially notable when you realize he can build for a 100% status, pure corrosive/heat build. Double especially when you realize that he gets finisher boosted damage from his 2.

Excal can butcher a group of level 150 heavy gunners in a matter of seconds.

It's really just crit exalted that got screwed over, as it turns out. Valkyr, Wukong, they made off worse because they lean on crit in addition to status.

Good point

 

6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Not to mention that with the 2.8m range (or 5.8 with Primed Reach) Excal can now hit enemies with both the sword and the wave more reliably than ever.

And this one as well. Prime reach is now very helpful on chromatic blade.

 

Feels bad.

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11 hours ago, 1nkling said:

Hi DE, why would you kill wukong and iron staff with the melee update?

I know the purpose was to make melee better while keeping the game balanced, but why killing wukong? Iron staff got nerfed badly, with no base damage increase, now iron staff:

  • does not benefit from combo multiplier in terms of damage
  • can not increase crit chance from gladiator set anymore
  • with primed reach, range reduced from ~10m to 6.5m
  • oh, CO got nerfed as well

Can anyone give me a reason to use iron staff over gram prime (or any top tier zaw), when

  • gram p has more base damage, 300 vs 250
  • gram p has better status chance, 32 vs 30
  • gram p has better crit chance, 32 vs 25
  • gram p is more slash based
  • gram p can pair with weeping wounds and blood rush, while even gladiator set doesn't work on iron staff now
  • gram p doesn't cost you 5 energy/s

DE, why?!

The trend has been going on for over 18 or 24 months:

If it is too "powerful". It will be deemed "power creep" and must be nerfed to the ground to be as mediocre as other weapons. If it could give players a lot of fun and players are actually using it to have fun, it has to be nerfed to the ground. If it is an "outlier" in terms of popularity or too many players enjoy it. it has to be nerfed. If it can kill everything quickly, it has to be nerfed. Finally, if you spend too much time to grind the item, spend too much to craft it or build it or too much plat to build it to meta status/DPS,  it will be nerfed.

Edited by George_PPS
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13 hours ago, Swagernator22663 said:

Dude they must be excited all the time then.

no one run a blacklight over DE's studio... like jackson pollock paintings EVERYWHERE.

explains why steve's keyboard and mouse are so grungy

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11 hours ago, George_PPS said:

The trend has been going on for over 18 or 24 months:

If it is too "powerful". It will be deemed "power creep" and must be nerfed to the ground to be as mediocre as other weapons. If it could give players a lot of fun and players are actually using it to have fun, it has to be nerfed to the ground. If it is an "outlier" in terms of popularity or too many players enjoy it. it has to be nerfed. If it can kill everything quickly, it has to be nerfed. Finally, if you spend too much time to grind the item, spend too much to craft it or build it or too much plat to build it to meta status/DPS,  it will be nerfed.

Sounds like a great game to quit...

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12 hours ago, George_PPS said:

The trend has been going on for over 18 or 24 months:

If it is too "powerful". It will be deemed "power creep" and must be nerfed to the ground to be as mediocre as other weapons. If it could give players a lot of fun and players are actually using it to have fun, it has to be nerfed to the ground. If it is an "outlier" in terms of popularity or too many players enjoy it. it has to be nerfed. If it can kill everything quickly, it has to be nerfed. Finally, if you spend too much time to grind the item, spend too much to craft it or build it or too much plat to build it to meta status/DPS,  it will be nerfed.

This almost would be preferable, because at least they would have achieved some semblance of "balance," even if everything was balanced in mediocrity. I'd rather they actually nerf everything because then people would start actually quitting the game and DE would have to grapple with a mass quit event and might learn something in the process.

Instead what happens in reality is they usually hit the thing in question so hard that it becomes complete trash, is utterly gutted, usually destroying whatever characteristics made the weapon/frame what it was to begin with (Catchmoon in a nutshell). They do this while something else gets buffed (or was already way stronger than people realized) and becomes the new FOTM.

No balance in achieved, the meta just moves on to become hyperfocused on something else. Usually in a bandwagoning fashion, because people have become so used to this pattern that they just hop onto the most immediate replacement despite there often being other (if not better) options. 

Edited by XaoGarrent
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23 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Melee Phase 2 Changes & Fixes:
Continued fixes and changes to Melee Phase 2 with more to come:

  • Fixed Gladiator Mod Set Bonus not applying correctly.

Did this help fix Wukong's Iron Staff, or does it still hit like a wet noodle? 

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On 2019-11-07 at 3:53 PM, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Did this help fix Wukong's Iron Staff, or does it still hit like a wet noodle? 

Helped a bit, the problem is, now the gladiator set comes before primal rage, so at x12 combo multiplier, the effect from gladiator mod(s) is even slightly weaker than it was at x3 combo multiplier before the update, and considering combo multiplier doesn't increase your base damage anymore, the DPS now is even lower than 1/3 of what it was. Let alone the reach nerf.

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Tested in simulacrum, my reaper prime (+dmg +range -slide riven) outperforms iron staff by a significant margin. I am so sad that I just decided to quit the game. Hope you guys enjoy melee 3.0 and have fun in this game.

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5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I thought nerfs and rebalances were necessary for the health of the game? Interesting.

 

Rebalances can be, but nerfs are always a losing proposition. You will ALWAYS lose players and gain little to nothing when nerfing.

The implications of this is are

A- It's always better to get it right in as few steps as possible, and avoid overshooting your target as best you can.

B- It's always better to make changes relative to the balance between weapons on the player side of the equation, and changes related to the actual power curve on the enemy side of the equation.

C- Ultimately, balance is highly overrated. It really should be among your last considerations when making a non-PVP focused game. Balance problems, bugs, bad graphics, none of these things will kill a game by themselves, but nothing drives players off faster than bad design or constant nerfing.

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6 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I thought nerfs and rebalances were necessary for the health of the game? Interesting.

Just as much as buffs are. The current state of the Iron Staff is unbalanced, ergo people are asking for changes.

Truly a complicated concept, I know, that people who want nerfs might also want buffs. 

Get out from under your rock, the community is not divided into "nerf everything" people and "don't nerf any of my things" people, there are plenty capable of thinking rationally. 

I see your petty attempt to say "I told you so" and raise you a blunt response.

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Wukong is already just about impossible to kill, directly rewards you when you do die, has one of the best (quite possibly the best) movement abilities in the entire game which lets you move very quickly, fly around freely, renders you both invincible and invisible, heals you, and also stuns enemies as a bonus, and has a durationless AFK bot that requires little management beyond sometimes pressing 2 and flying around while invulnerable

Sorry you can't just crouch and press E to gib entire swaths of enemies now on top of that I guess?

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7 minutes ago, MrFrog9 said:

Sorry you can't just crouch and press E to gib entire swaths of enemies now on top of that I guess?

Yes, that's exactly the proposal presented in the various threads on the matter, "I sad because I can't insta kill everything with E".

How about you actually argue against anything that's been said rather than making stuff up?

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Yes, that's exactly the proposal presented in the various threads on the matter, "I sad because I can't insta kill everything with E".

How about you actually argue against anything that's been said rather than making stuff up?

You seem aggressive today.

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Just now, MrFrog9 said:

You seem aggressive today.

So is that a no on the 'actually arguing against anything that's been said' front?

Do you know how many times I've read these sorts of arguments? Old Wukong got much the same in the 3 years of me providing feedback on him, "Wukong doesn't need any buffs, he's basically immortal!".

And what of it? No matter how good the rest of the kit is, it's not a justification for one of the abilities to be worse than just using your normal weapon. So please, if you feel you can provide an argument that justifies this, go ahead, I'll give you the time of day.

If you're just going to post the tripe above, then yeah, I'll be aggressive. Reasonable feedback has been posted, and you just dismiss it all with 'The rest of his kit is good, so therefore this one garbage ability doesn't need a buff'. Aggression entirely deserved.

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4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

So is that a no on the 'actually arguing against anything that's been said' front?

Do you know how many times I've read these sorts of arguments? Old Wukong got much the same in the 3 years of me providing feedback on him, "Wukong doesn't need any buffs, he's basically immortal!".

And what of it? No matter how good the rest of the kit is, it's not a justification for one of the abilities to be worse than just using your normal weapon. So please, if you feel you can provide an argument that justifies this, go ahead, I'll give you the time of day.

If you're just going to post the tripe above, then yeah, I'll be aggressive. Reasonable feedback has been posted, and you just dismiss it all with 'The rest of his kit is good, so therefore this one garbage ability doesn't need a buff'. Aggression entirely deserved.

I wonder what would have happened if you'd just ignored my (admittedly glib and nonconstructive) comment instead of blowing up.

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5 minutes ago, MrFrog9 said:

I wonder what would have happened if you'd just ignored my (admittedly glib and nonconstructive) comment instead of blowing up.

This isn't me blowing up :wink:

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4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Do you know how many times I've read these sorts of arguments? Old Wukong got much the same in the 3 years of me providing feedback on him, "Wukong doesn't need any buffs, he's basically immortal!".

Not gonna lie, I'd trade reworked Wukong for the original in a heartbeat, I miss his immortal defiance and while he certainly gained value in other areas, nothing that made him compete with other frames for my purposes anymore, his one gimmick was the only reason I ever had to use him, if they'd have changed his other abilities without touching Defy, well, that would've been a different story, for me.

That said, of recent history I'm with you on what happened to Wukong's 4, I'm not a fan of most of the melee rework in the first place, they murdered off far more weapon classes than they revived. Playing with Swords and Hammers again is nice, but not at the cost of Whips and Gunblades and Glaives and Daggers and Zenistar, I used to have about 7-8 different go to melee weapons, now I have 3, and also builds are way less variable than they were, combo is even more important than it was to maintain due to BR than before (I'm extremely frequently using Helios and Deconstructor and Naramon now rather than changing for the situation, to "make melee at high levels work again") heavy attacks are really disappointing (outside of heavy slams, those are neat) all in all... I just feel like I've lost a LOT of options.

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11 hours ago, MrFrog9 said:

Wukong is already just about impossible to kill, directly rewards you when you do die, has one of the best (quite possibly the best) movement abilities in the entire game which lets you move very quickly, fly around freely, renders you both invincible and invisible, heals you, and also stuns enemies as a bonus, and has a durationless AFK bot that requires little management beyond sometimes pressing 2 and flying around while invulnerable

Sorry you can't just crouch and press E to gib entire swaths of enemies now on top of that I guess?

OK now let me tell you what is wrong with wukong for me. I am a wukong fan starting way before the wukong rework, for 1 thing that is his 4. Frankly speaking, the wukong rework does make him better, but this wukong post the melee update is no doubt the worst versioin of wukong for me because it kills his 4. It's so bad that there's not even a reason for me to use iron staff now.

I never cared about his twin as specters are cheap as dirt.

I never cared about cloud walker as spy missions are always easy and won't scale with enemy level, health is cheap with Magus Repair, movement is cheap with void dash, finisher is cheap with executing dash, invincibility/invisibility is useless when you cannot attack. Actually I find myself rarely use this ability (a waste of energy when channeling).

No one cares about the new defy, arcane guardian+umbral set is much more reliable.

ALL I CARE IS IRON STAFF!

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Exalted Blade got noticeably more powerful after the update. Before Wukong's Staff could easily compete with EB, now it struggles to compare to a lot of normal weapons.

I can't say anything about Hysteria because I don't have a build on Valkyr.

Baruuk is absolutely screwed. Before getting a few procs on an enemy to boost CO was the only way for him to deal with high level armored enemies in a bearable amount of time. Now that CO is calculated differently, it hardly makes a difference for him. Oh, and he still has the only exalted weapon that literally cannot build combo because the attacks ragdoll enemies to the other end of the world. Honestly, at this point Desert WInd just needs a complete redesign.

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