Why killing wukong and iron staff

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, CopperBezel said:

"Trivializing content" by "skipping the level", apparently.

Said by a Dev who was, at that exact moment, trivialising content by skipping through the level, just slightly slower.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

Small indie studio; please understand

[DeMonkey]

58 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Small indie studio; please understand

Not small, not independent.

[Ikusias]

16 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Small indie studio; please understand

that joke got old fast and it's not a "get out of jail" card for DE, they are way past the "indie" threeshold

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2020-02-11 at 4:37 PM, CopperBezel said:

"Trivializing content" by "skipping the level", apparently.

Please tell me this is a joke. Because if it isn't then it deserves an entire rant video of its own. Going fast somehow equals "trvialising content" and "skipping the level" as opposed to the hundreds of real ways that content is trivialised by the countless different powerful weapons and frames in the game.

This is ridiculously arbitrary. DE really are doing this just to spite people.

Edited February 13, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[rodzzila]

On 2019-11-02 at 12:24 PM, 1nkling said:

Hi DE, why would you kill wukong and iron staff with the melee update?

Well, you see. The rework had the unintended effect of people actually using Wukong for a change, so DE had to fix that.

[woisen]

Seems like DE makes Wukong always strong for a short time (to release), and then nerf him back in his unused state 😂

Let's see when he get good again.

Edited February 18, 2020 by woisen

[DeMonkey]

On 2020-02-18 at 7:39 PM, woisen said:

Seems like DE makes Wukong always strong for a short time (to release), and then nerf him back in his unused state

This is literally the first and only time they have done it.

Release > Garbage for 3 and a half years > panic when you realise you won't get money on his Prime Access so you buff the frame > nerf and neglect him once the PA is out of the way.

That's Wukong's life in Warframe in it's entirety.

[(PSN)SrebX]

On 2020-02-18 at 9:39 PM, woisen said:

Seems like DE makes Wukong always strong for a short time (to release), and then nerf him back in his unused state 😂

Let's see when he get good again.

I find it laughable that people think he's anywhere near his old state. And unfortunately this opinion even plagues some of the really good players who should know how to build frames by now.
 

Wukong is still an A tier Warframe, he's still faster, more durable ,stronger and more efficient than 90% of the frames. 

True, Iron Staff Wukong died. Now Range Wukong reigns supreme above other frames, and he's stronger and has more capabilities than ever before.

[CopperBezel]

Range? You don't mean building for ability range, right? It only affects his taunt in his 3.

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Range? You don't mean building for ability range, right? It only affects his taunt in his 3.

It affects the spin attack and the CC provided by his first abilities augment as well.

[CopperBezel]

Huh, I need to play with that augment. His 2 and 3 benefit so much from duration that I've had Narrow Minded on him pretty much since I got him.

[(PSN)SrebX]

12 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Range? You don't mean building for ability range, right? It only affects his taunt in his 3.

It affects Celestial Stomp, his #1 Augment

In a nutshell, the gameplay is- Use a powerful melee of choice (Reaper Prime/Paracesis/Kronen Prime/Nikana Prime/Kuva Shildeg/Fragor Prime/Whatever the hell you want), Use a good AI weapon for WuClone (Kuva Bramma for AoE dmg/Secura Penta for AoE dmg/Pox for Armor strip/Zakti for condition priming/Kohm for shredding/Whatever The hell you want)

Then all you have to do is get go on a mission and you'll find out that you're faster and tankier than everybody, while being Able to CC the entire room+the room next to you WHILE you're running around with your overpowered Melee chopping enemies to bits WHILE your WuClone destroys everything with AoE weapon/Strips Armor/Whatever function you gave him

[DeMonkey]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

It affects Celestial Stomp, his #1 Augment

In a nutshell, the gameplay is- Use a powerful melee of choice (Reaper Prime/Paracesis/Kronen Prime/Nikana Prime/Kuva Shildeg/Fragor Prime/Whatever the hell you want), Use a good AI weapon for WuClone (Kuva Bramma for AoE dmg/Secura Penta for AoE dmg/Pox for Armor strip/Zakti for condition priming/Kohm for shredding/Whatever The hell you want)

Then all you have to do is get go on a mission and you'll find out that you're faster and tankier than everybody, while being Able to CC the entire room+the room next to you WHILE you're running around with your overpowered Melee chopping enemies to bits WHILE your WuClone destroys everything with AoE weapon/Strips Armor/Whatever function you gave him

Gotta wonder how new you are to the game if you think that Wukong excels at this...

Right off the bat, Nova. A good Nova will easily outperform Wukong at everything you just mentioned. Speed, tanking, CC and damage.

Lets break down why you're exaggerating though.

Speed - Wukong can move fast, yes. However Cloudwalker lasts a mere 2 seconds and needs to consistently be recast, and you're unable to attack whilst moving at this speed. You can drop out of it at any time to attack, but you're no longer moving at this speed. Other frames with speed buffs (like Nova) will retain their speed through attacking.

Tanking - Before considering things like adaptation and arcanes that any frame can equip, and just looking at Wukong Prime's specific stats, he can reach 2,304 armour and 1,605 health if you use all 3 Umbral mods and cast Defy.

That's an effective health of just over 14k when you include his shield, which is surpassed by many many other frames.

In fact, if you equip those same 3 mods on Nova Prime you get 190 armour and 1,070 health which is 1,750 ehp before shield, and 2,050 afterwards, or 20,500 ehp when taking into consideration her ability to get 90% DR.

CC - It's 8 seconds across a 20m area. Hardly special. It's just a worse Rhino Stomp. I don't think I need to type what Nova's CC is capable of doing.

Damage - Sure, the clone and you can do a lot, but you have to melee in order for the clone to be useful. Nova does enough damage for 2 people regardless of the weapon you choose, and this also benefits the team.

Wukong does not excel at the things you have mentioned, you've just run across slower players.

[ZarTham]

1 hour ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

It affects Celestial Stomp, his #1 Augment

In a nutshell, the gameplay is- Use a powerful melee of choice (Reaper Prime/Paracesis/Kronen Prime/Nikana Prime/Kuva Shildeg/Fragor Prime/Whatever the hell you want), Use a good AI weapon for WuClone (Kuva Bramma for AoE dmg/Secura Penta for AoE dmg/Pox for Armor strip/Zakti for condition priming/Kohm for shredding/Whatever The hell you want)

Then all you have to do is get go on a mission and you'll find out that you're faster and tankier than everybody, while being Able to CC the entire room+the room next to you WHILE you're running around with your overpowered Melee chopping enemies to bits WHILE your WuClone destroys everything with AoE weapon/Strips Armor/Whatever function you gave him

Wukong's Staff isn't for fashion purposes, that's his signature weapon, it is supposed to be good and it's currently S#&$, right when we finally had a reason to play Wukong (and it was fun has hell compared to Oldkong) DE decides to nerf his staff, Celestial Stomp isn't as good as you claim, since slam attacks are terrible, and as someone who runs 2 hours kuva survivals while carrying and defending extractors trust me when I say Wukong isn't as tankier as you think.

[hooperinius]

Yeah they need to give his staff some love.

[Yrkul]

4 minutes ago, hooperinius said:

Yeah they need to give his staff some love.

[(PSN)SrebX]

5 hours ago, ZarTham said:

Wukong's Staff isn't for fashion purposes, that's his signature weapon, it is supposed to be good and it's currently S#&$, right when we finally had a reason to play Wukong (and it was fun has hell compared to Oldkong) DE decides to nerf his staff, Celestial Stomp isn't as good as you claim, since slam attacks are terrible, and as someone who runs 2 hours kuva survivals while carrying and defending extractors trust me when I say Wukong isn't as tankier as you think.

First of all, yes, the Staff sucks now and I hate it. I wish it was good. 

But no reason to play him? When I want to solo Kuvival fissures for 60+ minutes Wukong is the only Frame I go to, so far have made it to 100 minutes and I'm sure I could've gone further

No it won't carry your teammates, but it'll be powerful enough to overshine them most of the time

[ZarTham]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

First of all, yes, the Staff sucks now and I hate it. I wish it was good. 

But no reason to play him? When I want to solo Kuvival fissures for 60+ minutes Wukong is the only Frame I go to, so far have made it to 100 minutes and I'm sure I could've gone further

No it won't carry your teammates, but it'll be powerful enough to overshine them most of the time

No reason to play with him when Defy was god-like (before rework), that's what I was referring to. And tbh, with this last change on Wukong's staff I am actually losing any will to play WF, almost 5 months without playing because I'm working outside of my country but this nerfs are just putting me off WF completely, when the staff is his thing it doesn't make a #*!%ing sense to nerf it the way DE did.

[(PSN)SrebX]

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Gotta wonder how new you are to the game if you think that Wukong excels at this...

Right off the bat, Nova. A good Nova will easily outperform Wukong at everything you just mentioned. Speed, tanking, CC and damage.

Lets break down why you're exaggerating though.

Speed - Wukong can move fast, yes. However Cloudwalker lasts a mere 2 seconds and needs to consistently be recast, and you're unable to attack whilst moving at this speed. You can drop out of it at any time to attack, but you're no longer moving at this speed. Other frames with speed buffs (like Nova) will retain their speed through attacking.

Tanking - Before considering things like adaptation and arcanes that any frame can equip, and just looking at Wukong Prime's specific stats, he can reach 2,304 armour and 1,605 health if you use all 3 Umbral mods and cast Defy.

That's an effective health of just over 14k when you include his shield, which is surpassed by many many other frames.

In fact, if you equip those same 3 mods on Nova Prime you get 190 armour and 1,070 health which is 1,750 ehp before shield, and 2,050 afterwards, or 20,500 ehp when taking into consideration her ability to get 90% DR.

CC - It's 8 seconds across a 20m area. Hardly special. It's just a worse Rhino Stomp. I don't think I need to type what Nova's CC is capable of doing.

Damage - Sure, the clone and you can do a lot, but you have to melee in order for the clone to be useful. Nova does enough damage for 2 people regardless of the weapon you choose, and this also benefits the team.

Wukong does not excel at the things you have mentioned, you've just run across slower players.

Yea, Nova has some similar abilities and is more tanky overall, but Wukong is a lot more lethal, and effectively a lot faster. Let's just take this point by point

Tanking- Nova is tankier since she has that juicy 80-90% DR (Depending on your build). Most of Wukong's advantage stems from easily recastable spammable Invulnerability uptime+Cloud Walker healing himself+The Ability to easily utilize Armor+Adaptation (Which, yes, Any Frame can use but very little frames can utilize all of them in the same build and still remain offensively effective), but Nova is definitely the tankier one.

Speed- Please don't. Yes, Nova is very fast when she builds for Range and uses her Augment, but normally you wouldn't build for that. If you do build for that you lose a lot of DR and range on your 4. Practically speaking in everyday mission and builds Nova won't have all of her Speed+Tankyness (+If you lose range on your 4 you need to cast it more often and if you cast a lot of your Wormhole too, Energy becomes problematic.   So yes, Nova is faster is  you build for it, Wukong is much much faster on everyday missions and much more easily

CC- Yes but it's spammable and your character doesn't perform the animation, so you barely ever have to deal with enemies really, just cast it everytime you remember to while still playing normally. I agree that Nova's CC is much more effective though, no doubt, it's just that Extreme slow or Extreme Speed isn't desirable on a lot of squads. In fact, in my experience it tends to get to groups for Extract earlier. (And if you don't build for Extreme speed/Slow than you're not really CCing)

 Damage- Nova's ability to Amp dmg would be A LOT better than Wukong's ability to dmg if it wasn't for the fact that Melees and AoE Primaries already one shots hoards of enemies. It's an easy game and dmg amplifying just doesn't do much for you besides bosses or lvl 160+ armored unites

And lastly, let's talk about doing them all together. A lot of Wukong's effectiveness stems from the fact that he needs very little investment to his abilities, he's vrry very Energy efficient and he has a Clone to do double up on everything. With Wukong you can fit on a build 4 Survivability mods, all the Dur+Range+Str you need and even add QoL like sprint speed, While still maintaining near top effectiveness on 3 of his abilities ('Cause 4 is just a lost cause at this point). Nova just needs a lot of investment and can't do all of these things at once. (Although, granted if you have all of the arcanes+Operator arcanes you might just close some of the gap on some of these categories, But again, with Wukong it's just easy)

 

Look, I've played this game for a while and have played with some really good Novas and Saryns and whatever the hell you want, and a lot of people have been surprised by just how effective Wukong is. At the long endurance runs Wukong does start to fall off and you see the Novas start to shine, but the fact is for 90% of the content Wukong is by far more effective at a lot of things at once than 90% of the frames

 

Edit: Btw, just gotta note that I love Nova and I don't mean to downplay her by any means. Nova is my 3rd most used Frame and I love her play style and abilities. I'm just trying to make my point here

Edited February 21, 2020 by (PS4)SrebX

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Speed- Please don't.

Oh but I shall. Nova + Augment will get around in combat situations more efficiently than Wukong, who's speed is mainly used to skip through levels whilst ignoring enemies, or to close gaps with melee.

Wukong has 2 states, very fast and combat gimped, or slow and combat ready.

Nova has 2 states, pretty fast and combat ready, or slow and combat ready.

2 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

just cast it everytime you remember to while still playing normally.

I mean, isn't that true of Molecular Prime as well? It lasts so long that you don't need to spam it.

2 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Damage- Nova's ability to Amp dmg would be A LOT better than Wukong's ability to dmg if it wasn't for the fact that Melees and AoE Primaries already one shots hoards of enemies.

Then why bring up damage in the first place? 

Seriously though, arguing that Wukong does more damage than Nova... 

On one hand you have 2 Wukongs, one using a powerful weapon but suffering from being AI, the other is using a melee weapon which can't hope to keep up with a proper primary.

Then you have a player controlled Nova, able to use a powerful weapon all of their own shooting enemies with effectively half health and creating mini explosions.

I don't see the "win" for Wukong here. Enough exaggerating.

[woisen]

Am 20.2.2020 um 05:38 schrieb DeMonkey:

This is literally the first and only time they have done it.

Release > Garbage for 3 and a half years > panic when you realise you won't get money on his Prime Access so you buff the frame > nerf and neglect him once the PA is out of the way.

That's Wukong's life in Warframe in it's entirety.

Thats not true, in the beginning he was truely unkillable like valkyr, then DE overlooked him... Than he got his rework and i have to admit that he is still better then before the rework.

[ZarTham]

2 minutes ago, woisen said:

Thats not true, in the beginning he was truely unkillable like valkyr, then DE overlooked him... Than he got his rework and i have to admit that he is still better then before the rework.

Current Wukong deals at least 2x less damage than before this Iron Staff nerf, sure in terms of abilities usage he is much better than before the rework, but his current staff damage has gotten terrible.

[DeMonkey]

19 minutes ago, woisen said:

Thats not true, in the beginning he was truely unkillable like valkyr, then DE overlooked him... Than he got his rework and i have to admit that he is still better then before the rework.

As far the content we have goes, he's always been virtually unkillable. Defy was a garbage ability.

[(PSN)SrebX]

33 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Oh but I shall. Nova + Augment will get around in combat situations more efficiently than Wukong, who's speed is mainly used to skip through levels whilst ignoring enemies, or to close gaps with melee.

Ahhh man, you're making me going into some real nitty details I'd hate to. But generallly just think of the practicality. You're thinking general abilities while disconnecting them from the actual game modes and game build mechanics.

Skipping thorugh levels is desired on most game modes. Sabotage, Captures and Mobile Defenses no doubt, Survivals can go either way (With a slight edge to faster skipping on the rare occasion you'll need to just barely trying to make it to a Life support console in time). In Exterminations sure, Nova somewhat has the edge in speed (althought I personally use Cloud walker between rooms and that definitely closes the gap) . And that's assuming you're even using that Augment on your build.

33 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Wukong has 2 states, very fast and combat gimped, or slow and combat ready.

Nova has 2 states, pretty fast and combat ready, or slow and combat ready.

Here you just mostly ignore my previous points, which include speed mods that will outrun Nova's base speed. Assuming you'd use the Augment Nova will outrun me in that case, but 'slow' is too strong of a word really.

33 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Wukong has 2 states, very fast and combat gimped, or slow and combat ready.

Nova has 2 states, pretty fast and combat ready, or slow and combat ready.

Again, that's build dependant. Maybe Wukong needs to recast, but fortunately the animation isn't done by the player so you're still free. While casting Molecular Prime takes a while it only requires once which is a benefit, but again, unless you're giving up either CC or Speed your range will suffer pretty bad and require a recast every room

 

33 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Then why bring up damage in the first place? 

Seriously though, arguing that Wukong does more damage than Nova... 

I never brought up dmg, and I never said Wukong outdamages Nova.
Melee and Primaries on their own are enough to oneshot enemies up to lvl ~90, so in short- Nova does more dmg, but Wukong will kill more enemies faster

33 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

On one hand you have 2 Wukongs, one using a powerful weapon but suffering from being AI, the other is using a melee weapon which can't hope to keep up with a proper primary.

Since Melee 3.0 melees I'm pretty sure Melees do more dmg than Primaries. Anyhow, it doesn't really matter- while Im using my melee I only have to spam Melee button while running  and that's enough to kill pretty much everything in sight, while my Clone's Bramma will take care of the Noxes and wandering butchers of the world, or just a hoard I was yet to get to

33 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Then you have a player controlled Nova, able to use a powerful weapon all of their own shooting enemies with effectively half health and creating mini explosions.

Half Health isn't relevant when you cut down everything whilist running, or when you have the Bramma's and Penta's of the world that just one shots.
Mini explosions also are irrelevant in normal content, since as long as the enemies are clustered together your usual Melee/Primary will have the same group TTK as the same Melee/Primary+those explosions, since again, Weapons pretty much one shot.  For enemies not clustered together those explosions just don't reach, unless you build for A LOT of range, and again, You lose on a lot of other abilities

 

Btw, can I see your build? Sounds like you've figured out the perfect Nova build that has it all, so I'd definitely like to try it

Edited February 21, 2020 by (PS4)SrebX