Why killing wukong and iron staff

[(PSN)SrebX]

23 minutes ago, ZarTham said:

Current Wukong deals at least 2x less damage than before this Iron Staff nerf, sure in terms of abilities usage he is much better than before the rework, but his current staff damage has gotten terrible.

The thing is- Now every single Primed melee weapon does what only the Iron Staff could do before, only with less range and less fun stance, but at least you get to keep the Primary on your clone and the space to use Celestial Stomp 

[DeMonkey]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Skipping thorugh levels is desired on most game modes.

For you perhaps, but I don't consider "skipping the game" to be a relevant playstyle, so I discount it in discussions such as this.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Assuming you'd use the Augment

Obviously, given you started this by bringing up Wukong's augment.

11 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

unless you're giving up either CC or Speed your range will suffer pretty bad and require a recast every room

You seem to be unaware that Molecular Prime's range doesn't actually scale off of range...

12 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

I never brought up dmg

  

11 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

WHILE you're running around with your overpowered Melee chopping enemies to bits WHILE your WuClone destroys everything

Maybe that was just someone sharing your IGN... it's a mystery.

13 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

but Wukong will kill more enemies faster

No, because you're using melee, a weapon that requires you to get close to the enemy. A gun still beats a sword. Re-read your argument "it's all irrelevant when everything is one shot anyway" < exactly that, therefore using a gun to one shot lots of things at range is better than a melee weapon that can't do that at range. And no, the AI controlled clone is no substitute.

Wukong does not excel at this.

[(PSN)SrebX]

You're making this unnecessarily hard my friend, it's like you're refusing to deduct anything I don't specifically specify

9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

For you perhaps, but I don't consider "skipping the game" to be a relevant playstyle, so I discount it in discussions such as this.

Really? You prefer spending 5-10 minutes on a Capture/Sabotage mission? You prefer to stop and kill every enemy on Mobile defense? In that case, speed is irrelevant, you might as well take an Assimilate Nyx

10 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Obviously, given you started this by bringing up Wukong's augment.

Because I did it after also bringing up the point that Wukong has a lot of modspace on a single build, since his abilities doesn't need a lot of stats to function well. That's the biggest point here- Capabilties of a single functional build that you take into everyday missions, and you have yet to even refer to it for some reason. Again- can I please see your build? By just looking at your build I might see your point, and I might even try and  test it, so you might be right , just show me that build that does all that

16 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You seem to be unaware that Molecular Prime's range doesn't actually scale off of range...

Giving up Speed= Augment/Sprint speed mod
Giving up CC= Strength 
I was obviously referring to the duration mods there, I don't see why you insist on making this harder by making me point out every minor detail

18 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

WHILE you're running around with your overpowered Melee chopping enemies to bits WHILE your WuClone destroys everything

 

19 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Maybe that was just someone sharing your IGN... it's a mystery.

Again, making me point out every little detail... Saying my Melee/Primary does enough dmg to kill enemies very fast isn't the same as saying Wukong outdamages Nova, the topic of dmg only matters to the point where your ttk on a hoard of enemy is noticable- And if you run into a hoard of enemies with a melee or run into a hoard of primed enemies with a melee, your ttk of that hoard won't change much since it does enough dmg to spam melee and keep running. Same goes for Shooting a Bramma/Penta/Amprex/Ignis/Whever you'd want to use

23 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No, because you're using melee, a weapon that requires you to get close to the enemy. A gun still beats a sword. Re-read your argument "it's all irrelevant when everything is one shot anyway" < exactly that, therefore using a gun to one shot lots of things at range is better than a melee weapon that can't do that at range. And no, the AI controlled clone is no substitute.

Wukong does not excel at this.

It's like your trying to talk abstractly without practical context.
In practicality, you'll encounter a lot of situations- In some of them you'll shoot a grenade that deals with a hoard in second, in another you're too far to shoot so you might as well pop Cloud walker/Worm hole and melee, next time you'll be LoSed and have to get close or maybe the target enemy will just be in melee range, And other times a single target weapon would do the job the fastest. 

There are a lot of contexts in this game, and the ability to deal with enemies in melee while your Clone deals another hoard from range (Or the other way around- You'll deal with enemies you can pick up from afar while your Clone runs around and deals with adds) is just faster at killing more enemies at once. I don't mind sharing that loadout if you want to give it a try and test for yourself, just try to run around with it for a few missions and Sorties and you'll see how effective it is, especially if you're trying to blitz your squadmates and take all the kills

[CopperBezel]

I'm going to drop in that Nova's speed boost is only a 50% sprint boost that adds like a mod and doesn't scale with power strength. I switched to it in place of Rush in my exilus slot (she does not have space for both) after switching her aura from Sprint Boost to Swift Momentum for better melee, which was giving up 45% for 50% on a timer. It's really one of the lousiest speed boost abilities in the game. (Not everything needs to be multiplicative like Molt but at least be additive with strength scaling like Haste Mote, c'mon. You can do better than the speed half of Firewalker. = P)

But yeah, everything Nova scales from duration except MP's slow with its cap at +45% strength. With full duration, you have 90% DR, 90m of Molecular Prime that lasts for 90s, lots of 90s going around, and I guess 21s of Escape Velocity but good luck fitting the efficiency to run it into your remaining three slots. Her optimal build, which is not her fun build, is the one where you have her 4 augment on, apply MP once every minute or so to keep the map chilled, and cast Null Star once at the start and forget about it because it's constantly restored by kills under MP. 

Obviously, she also just has a higher base sprint speed than Wukong, but still less a bit than Cloud Walker after mods, while Wukong ignores terrain and flies like a debug mode camera. And then, for damage dealing, yeah, one gives you instant viral on everyone, and the other gives you a very dumb but quick friend with a Kuva Chakkhurr or whatever. 

I gotta say, it's a slightly weird comparison to make, IMO. For speedy tanks, Nezha and Gauss exist. I mean, Nezha's wacky tanky and gets his weak, additive sprint boost ability for free.

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Really? You prefer spending 5-10 minutes on a Capture/Sabotage mission? You prefer to stop and kill every enemy on Mobile defense? In that case, speed is irrelevant, you might as well take an Assimilate Nyx

You're over deducting.

That's not actually a term of course, but you know what it means.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Again- can I please see your build? By just looking at your build I might see your point, and I might even try and  test it, so you might be right , just show me that build that does all that

Show me your Wukong build that "does all that". My point is just that whatever you're claiming Wukong excels at, doesn't exist. He's not the tankiest, fastest damage dealing CC frame by a long shot. I've merely pointed out that Nova outshines him in many regards.

There are ofc other examples.

11 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Giving up Speed= Augment/Sprint speed mod
Giving up CC= Strength 

And this means... what?

13 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

It's like your trying to talk abstractly without practical context.

It's like you've deluded yourself into believing that your experience with this build is going to representative of everyone elses, and that you've conveniently forgotten all the flaws that comes with AI.

Oh well.

[(PSN)SrebX]

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Show me your Wukong build that "does all that".

https://tennoware.com/warframes/wukong prime/11223104330w405t505c903n405p710y910k803a210w510y81000000000

Loadout includes a Bramma on the Primary, Reaper prime on Melee, and on the secondary- Nukor/Aksomati Prime for Single Target or Pox for Armor Stripping for endurance runs
I personally use Umbra Fiber instead of Steel Fiber, but that requires over the top investment obviously and doesn't make for much of a difference

8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

My point is just that whatever you're claiming Wukong excels at, doesn't exist. He's not the tankiest, fastest damage dealing CC frame by a long shot. I've merely pointed out that Nova outshines him in many regards.

My point is'nt the He's the tankiest, fastest damage dealing CC frame. My point is that he's the best at having the Most speed with the most CC with the most tankyness with enough dmg at the same time (Relative to most content, up to lvl ~110 is where you start to see a fall off in favor of more dmg, and at around lvl ~140 you'll experience a fall off in favor of more tankyness). I hope you see how that's different from excelling at every single one of those categories separately  

8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

It's like you've deluded yourself into believing that your experience with this build is going to representative of everyone elses, and that you've conveniently forgotten all the flaws that comes with AI.

Thankfully, somehow, WuClone's AI is built very well. Granted it's thanks to things like insta-teleporting to you when he gets a bit far, but other than that, the ability to passively pick off targets you're not focused on is very useful anytime, it's just passive dmg. It's even better since that passive dmg source has your mods and weapons, so by making a few smart choices you can make that AI very effective

 

Anyhow, I'll go back to the point- Wukong is very good at doing a lot of things at a pretty high lvl all at once very easily. He doesn't excel at any of those points individually to an extreme lvl. (Other than spy missions, there is no contest in spy missions xD)
 

 

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Loadout includes a Bramma on the Primary, Reaper prime on Melee, and on the secondary- Nukor/Aksomati Prime for Single Target or Pox for Armor Stripping for endurance runs
I personally use Umbra Fiber instead of Steel Fiber, but that requires over the top investment obviously and doesn't make for much of a difference

Based on your "CC this room and the next" comment I was expecting more than 38m tbh.

3 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

I hope you see how that's different from excelling at every single one of those categories separately  

Nope. Because he isn't what you said he is, as demonstrated earlier.

For all your talk of "practicality" you're looking at Wukong in a vacuum. How is his speed "practical" in situations where you're making use of his tanking and CC? His speed is best utilised for skipping enemies or the occasional longer range gap closer, in any situation in which tanking and CC is relevant then a form of speed buff that maintains it's effect even in combat is going to be superior. 

He isn't tankier than Nova.

His CC is inferior to Nova's. You even posted something along the lines of "too much CC", that's how much better her CC is. Wukong is not the fastest, tankiest CC frame.

Volt can move plenty fast as well, tank a ton of damage via his shield and Capacitance augment and CC enemies with Discharge.

The point is the only thing your posts actually tell us is that you have found a build that works for you, and you've played with people who aren't as fast as you. That's it. There's nothing in it that even touches on the main topic, that being the Iron Staff.

3 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Thankfully, somehow, WuClone's AI is built very well.

I'll give it a pat on the back the next time I see it shooting a wall, remind it that it's supposed to be a good AI and shoot the baddies. Maybe that'll fix him. I might even try it on the rest of the AI in the game.

[(PSN)SrebX]

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Nope. Because he isn't what you said he is, as demonstrated earlier.

This is futile at this point, just go ahead and give it a try, because it looks like you won't get it until you experience it 

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

For all your talk of "practicality" you're looking at Wukong in a vacuum. How is his speed "practical" in situations where you're making use of his tanking and CC? His speed is best utilised for skipping enemies or the occasional longer range gap closer, in any situation in which tanking and CC is relevant then a form of speed buff that maintains it's effect even in combat is going to be superior. 

He isn't tankier than Nova.

His CC is inferior to Nova's. You even posted something along the lines of "too much CC", that's how much better her CC is. Wukong is not the fastest, tankiest CC frame.

Volt can move plenty fast as well, tank a ton of damage via his shield and Capacitance augment and CC enemies with Discharge.

Volt is fast and can CC. His dmg isn't great though
Nova is really tanky and has better CC
Wukong has a very good CC while being very very fast while beiing very tanky

You can use the term "Skip enemies" all you want, at the end of the day Wukong will finish missions faster because he'l go through the distance and kill the enemies faster than anyone else

I can stay here all night listing how Volt isn't tanky at all because shields suck or how his animation takes forever, but we already went through those things with Nova and somehow you still refuse to see how I'm not pointing out the he's the fastEST or the tankiEST on their own. 

Just go ahead, give a shot, I hope you'll realize it when you outrun all those Volts and Nova's and end up with a lot more kills, so just stop with all this theoretical nonsense.
Can't believe you just brought up Volt as tanky and fast, it's like you're trying to ignore buildcraft and practicality when it's all that's been talked about

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

The point is the only thing your posts actually tell us is that you have found a build that works for you, and you've played with people who aren't as fast as you. That's it. There's nothing in it that even touches on the main topic, that being the Iron Staff.

That's true. I'm a Wukong main, and like a lot of people in this post my main build was Iron Staff Wukong and after melee 3.0 I got hit pretty hard, just like a lot of other people in this topic. Like them, I started thinking Wukong was back to being trash tier, until I realized he wasn't, so I'd like to share that with my fellow Iron Staff grievers 

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Volt is fast and can CC. His dmg isn't great though

You're so wishy washy I swear. One minute it's "I'm not talking about damage because everything dies in one hit" and the next it's suddenly a relevant factor. You're a fish, flopping around. Also no, Volt's damage output is fine in this regard.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Nova is really tanky and has better CC

4 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

it's like you're trying to ignore buildcraft and practicality

^ Hard to try and lecture me on that when you're failing yourself. You know Nova is a speedy little frame, stop trying to deny it.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Wukong has a very good CC while being very very fast while beiing very tanky

If celestial stomp is "very good CC" then Rhino must be overpowered, given it does damage and has a further range. I guess that explains all the times I saw people asking for CC Rhinos for T3S runs and Pheonix Intercept...

Wait no, I didn't see that at all.

If I needed to take a CC frame, not that I ever would, I wouldn't pick up Wukong.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

see how I'm not pointing out the he's the fastEST or the tankiEST on their own. 

And you need to see that you're just wrong. These things he excels are are being overblown by yourself, and there are frames who are just as competent if not moreso at performing all these things at once.

13 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Just go ahead, give a shot, I hope you'll realize it when you outrun all those Volts and Nova's and end up with a lot more kills

I mean, I already did pre-rework with my Iron Staff before CW was good. Doesn't really change anything in my statements. Slower players exist, and are not validation for your build being the "tankiest fastest damage dealing CC frame" in the game.

I've played with a good Nova, and I absolutely was not getting to the enemies first.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Like them, I started thinking Wukong was back to being trash tier, until I realized he wasn't, so I'd like to share that with my fellow Iron Staff grievers

And that's great and all, but besides the point. Other builds exist yes, but lets not overblow them to be something they aren't.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Just go ahead, give a shot, I hope you'll realize it when you outrun all those Volts and Nova's and end up with a lot more kills.

This is hardly the case since the speed nerf to Cloud Walker.

I take Volt Prime with Prisma Grinlok/Snipetron Vandal, Aksomati Prime, and Ninkondi Prime for Fissure Exterminate and Nova Prime with Prisma Grinlok/Snipetron Vandal, Aksomati Prime, and Telos Boltace/Ninkondi Prime for Fissure Capture, and about 95% of the time I have the most kills/damage dealt. Wukong is way better than his previous state and with a much more interesting kit, but he still excels at nothing. His gimmick of being immortal is now handed to Inaros, he can barely deal comparable damage to any proper arsenal setup, and with the Cloud Walker nerf, he is just slower to other Warframes.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Voltage

[(PSN)SrebX]

13 hours ago, Voltage said:

This is hardly the case since the speed nerf to Cloud Walker.

Just crouch before you cast Cloud Walker, you'll gain all the speed back

13 hours ago, Voltage said:

he can barely deal comparable damage to any proper arsenal setup

Since now have Kuva Bramma and Melee weapons that cut through lvl 120 enemies without rivens with no trouble, Damage is rarely an issue
I get how the Cloud Walker nerf lowered his status, but currently you can still gain that speed

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Just crouch before you cast Cloud Walker, you'll gain all the speed back

Nova will still be faster.

Waiting for you to remember that tiles exist that aren't just tiny corridors.

[(PSN)SrebX]

13 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

You're so wishy washy I swear. One minute it's "I'm not talking about damage because everything dies in one hit" and the next it's suddenly a relevant factor. You're a fish, flopping around. Also no, Volt's damage output is fine in this regard.

That's because Volt's 4 somtimes doesn't kill enemies since he's reliant on having a lot of enemies nearby. Anyhow, my main problelm with him is Tankyness

13 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

And that's great and all, but besides the point. Other builds exist yes, but lets not overblow them to be something they aren't.

As for that whole thing... Listen mate, buildcraft is the whole reason I play this game. After I asked myself "Who's the frame that will complete everyday missions most efficiently without switching loadouts all the time?", I began testing. I tried a 2~3 builds with Nova, I ran Volt for a while, I ran Saryn, Frost, Wisp, and even a bit of Gara,
Wukong came on top everytime , because he'd complete sorties and missions the fastest while getting the most kills

You can go ahead and use that rational that tried to dispute my reasonings for why that happens, but it's fact that it does happen. You can either test it for yourself or continue with those very futile arguments 

Edited February 23, 2020 by (PS4)SrebX

[(PSN)SrebX]

6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Waiting for you to remember that tiles exist that aren't just tiny corridors.

Well, if we did only have tiny corridors Nova would win by a landslide with a tiny bit of range for her Wormhole. Thankfully Cloud Walker can turn as fast as your camera rotates

 

[ZarTham]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Just crouch before you cast Cloud Walker, you'll gain all the speed back

I'm pretty sure that wasn't intended and it's gonna be "fixed".

Edited February 23, 2020 by ZarTham

[DeMonkey]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

You can either test it for yourself or continue with those very futile arguments 

It's not a futile argument to point out that anecdotal evidence is not objective fact. I'm glad it's working for you, that doesn't make it true for all people, or true as a general rule.

[(PSN)SrebX]

11 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

It's not a futile argument to point out that anecdotal evidence is not objective fact. I'm glad it's working for you, that doesn't make it true for all people, or true as a general rule.

It's working for me because Wukong has those abilities in his kit

Working for someone is evidence that it can work and it is possible, unlike how not working for someone doesn't disproof it's ability completely 

But it's not about working or not working, it's being the best at the very general, yet specific set of situations you typically run into in this game, and after some testing I can confidently say that Wukong is the best at making typical content easy and fast, and he's definitely still a dominant top tier frame, unlike what some people try to argue since his 4's nerf

Edited February 23, 2020 by (PS4)SrebX

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

I can confidently say that Wukong is the best at making typical content easy and fast

He is not.

You'll get it eventually.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

When someone thinks they can win a Wukong argument against the definitive Wukong Main.

[seprent]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

When someone thinks they can win a Wukong argument against the definitive Wukong Main.

Yeah its like you and revenant Equality entertaining 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

30 minutes ago, seprent said:

Yeah its like you and revenant Equality entertaining 

Except there’s no definitive Revenant main. In fact, I actually know more about Rev than half the people who defend him.

[seprent]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Except there’s no definitive Revenant main. In fact, I actually know more about Rev than half the people who defend him.

All i know is i have a build that makes imo very little logical sense for Rev and it works for what i want it to do 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 minutes ago, seprent said:

All i know is i have a build that makes imo very little logical sense for Rev and it works for what i want it to do 

You’re also using the glyph of a YTer who has not been shy of their extreme distaste for Revenant. So it seems like a conflict of interest to say he’s good.

[ZarTham]

On topic folks, wukong issue, not rev.

[seprent]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re also using the glyph of a YTer who has not been shy of their extreme distaste for Revenant. So it seems like a conflict of interest to say he’s good.

didnt say he is good just that it does what i wanted it to do i went for a sentient Theme build then a good build it just happens to work 
My Build is a Adaptation umbral build with arcane aegis its not good for the uber meta content but it is entertaining for what i do