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weeding out the vets?

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4 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

The problem with this is that it pushes up the power curve of the entire game. DE could just buff weaker weapons instead of nerfing outliers, but then you have to fight level 160 enemies to get the same challenge you'd get out of 110. 

If you continue to make players more and more powerful without buffing enemies at the same time, then the content of the old balance point becomes trivial. This is how you end up with players sneering at missions at Sortie level and asking for a real endgame. 

This kind of power creeping is exactly why we have so many players in this game who feel like the game cannot challenge them unless they do 3 hour endurance runs. 

You are absolutely right. You point out the problem, which is exactly what needs to be done in some missions but not all missions: making enemies harder in some missions, insteading of nerfing metas and trying to figure out what and how to balance after things are broken. DE now reads spread sheets to eliminate "aberration" which is what all metas are and they are fun and loved by players. This is driving players away. 

On power creep, not all new players prefer easy contents but not all veterans prefer harder contents. DE is messing this up big time by not creating separate game modes for each type of players. Power creep may be "creep"  for some players, but for other players, they like to enjoy power creep. This is totally natural. A separate game mode with enemies starting at level 500 can solve  this, but don't force players to player certain contents that are either too hard or too easy. And no one wants to grind anything if it is tedious and not fun. 

 

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3 hours ago, OmegaDonut said:

Weapon balance is relative to each other, so nerfing one outlier is the same thing as buffing everything else, just a lot less time consuming and with less power creep and less a chance of simply creating another OP weapon due for a nerf down the line.  It’s silly from a developer time perspective to “just buff the other guns!” when nerfing the outlier accomplishes the same goal:  open up more options to the meta.  
 

I didn’t mind the catchmoon nerf because for its design the gun is still strong, and now it doesn’t completely eclipse other options and I can change up my style or tactic without gimping myself because a Swiss army knife weapon got rebalanced.   If “fun” for you is being game genie cheat code OP stick to 100% single player games. 

Nerfing is nerfing. Don't even start that *. That's how players feel. What are your favorite weapons and play styles? You want them to be "balanced" because you use and enjoy them in game too much? 

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3 hours ago, Cubewano said:

blindly buffing things into infinity is a way to inevitably crash and burn, and comes at its costs to the gameplay experience. why should de redesign the entire weapon pool to protect the state of a single outlier weapon? why should weapon diversity be surrendered, and enemy encounters be redesigned to preserve a single weapon? do you believe that single weapon that much funner than all of present weapon diversity that it'd be work that monumental work load to achieve? would it really stave you over for as long as that kind of work would take? buffing everything to the state that catchmoon was isn't some token effort that can be done in the blink of an eye, much less is the treatment of the balance ramification that would follow such weapon restructuring. and would you expect de to do that everytime a new stage of power creep crops up rather than just a nerf the single thing? because nerf is a scary word and must be avoided at all costs, or at least that's what you've been told by someone loudly so it must be true? seems a bit nonsensical doesn't it. 

DE just redesigned the entire melee weapon pool and broke many things. It is the worst update ever , and it took monumental work load to break it. Why weapon diversity has to be done by nerfing metas? Why can't both weak weapons and enemies be buffed at the same time? For most players their favorite weapons are very few and that is normal, and what we love to use and enjoy are not "aberration" on DE's cold spread sheets. And speaking of monumental work load, that's right, DE's study on the spread sheets is monumental work load so DE is not designing and testing new contents before releasing them. Read all the feedbacks yourself.

Finally, if you have issue with power creep and wants harder enemies, just ask DE make enemies harder or design a new game mode staring with level 500 enemies, not studying the spread sheets to decide what to nerf quarterly, monthly, and weekly. 

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49 minutes ago, Berserkerkitten said:

Thing is, all you ultimately get is a bunch of snobs going through people's profiles like "hurrdurr, look at the rabble calling themselves veterans nowadays" as if they were something better and ... eh. Sorry. Wasn't referring to you there. That kind of attitude is just so, so stupid. Not yours.

Agree with you there. Probably guilty of that myself. Its rather entitled to think that because you've been around longer that your opinion is more important than a new players. Stems from investment in the game I suppose.

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11 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

DE just redesigned the entire melee weapon pool and broke many things. It is the worst update ever , and it took monumental work load to break it. Why weapon diversity has to be done by nerfing metas? Why can't both weak weapons and enemies be buffed at the same time? For most players their favorite weapons are very few and that is normal, and what we love to use and enjoy are not "aberration" on DE's cold spread sheets. And speaking of monumental work load, that's right, DE's study on the spread sheets is monumental work load so DE is not designing and testing new contents before releasing them. Read all the feedbacks yourself.

Finally, if you have issue with power creep and wants harder enemies, just ask DE make enemies harder or design a new game mode staring with level 500 enemies, not studying the spread sheets to decide what to nerf quarterly, monthly, and weekly. 

"Many things" aka several busted meta weapons, and in turn we have arrived at potentially the best state for melee diversity we've ever had with a vast number of weapons being extremely viable for effectively all walks of content with a great deal of ease for that matter even, sounds like a substantial success in my books. But that said I've already explained why nerfing an extreme fringe outlier is far more reasonable to create balance than redesigning the game everytime a single weapon gets over tuned. It's an insane workload that just isn't reasonable to ask for or to expect to be kept up with, and that it is requested more or less entirely around semantics rather than any real objectives differences in the end result makes it that more profound of a notion. Why be impractical just for the sake of being impractical? Just to avoid a word you might dislike? 

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44 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

DE now reads spread sheets to eliminate "aberration" which is what all metas are and they are fun and loved by players.

I don't think it's fair to say that all metas are fun and loved by players. In fact, some metas are absolutely despised by players who participate in them anyway, sort of creating a "hold your nose and drink it quick" situation. Players gravitate far more towards the things that are the most effective and the most efficient than they gravitate towards things that are the most fun, so the fact that something is meta usually isn't a good indicator of how well liked it is. 

The most extreme example I have of this comes from Overwatch. There was a meta for a while called the Goats meta, where people picked 3 tanks and 3 supports to overwhelm the opposition by throwing as many hitpoints at the problem as you could and brute forcing your way to victory. And the majority of the community hated it. People got sick of the long, drawn out fights where nothing would happen, but it was played far more than anything else because it was just that much better than any other team composition. 

And we've seen this sort of thing in Warframe, too. Nekros used to have to press 3 and watch a very slow animation every single time he wanted to use Desecrate, and he was still the meta pick for farming squads, simply because he's the most effective. People generally did not like doing nothing but standing in the corner and pressing 3, but they did it anyway because it was more efficient and more effective. Similar thing happened with the CC meta in Law of Retribution. That raid was commonly reduced to standing on buttons while a bunch of enemies just sort of stood around, usually affected by a blind, disarm, and Molecular Prime and really couldn't do anything to anybody. 

And of course not all of these metas were universally disliked, but sometimes a meta can actually be boring and disliked, and so something being meta should not be taken as an indication that everyone who uses it thinks it's fun to use. 

35 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Why can't both weak weapons and enemies be buffed at the same time?

Because then any time a new outlier appears, DE has to change the rest of the game to accommodate it. It's not to say that buffing everything else to the level of an outlier is always a bad solution, but usually this is monumentally more work than just reducing the outlier to be in line with everything else. 

Let's say DE releases an outlier weapon every 6 months. If they adopt the approach of buffing the weapons besides the outlier and buffing enemies instead of nerfing the outlier, then that means that every 6 months, DE would have to rework enemy scaling and change the stats of every weapon in the game. 

And when we're approaching 1,000 weapons, I hope you can see why this is an immensely cumbersome solution. 

44 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

A separate game mode with enemies starting at level 500 can solve  this, but don't force players to player certain contents that are either too hard or too easy.

This can lead to content becoming obsolete. What we don't want is for arbitrations to not be worth anyone's time anymore because you can get way better challenge and (presumably) way better rewards for doing level 500 content. 

It's also really hard to balance that so that it feels fair both for people who fight level 100 enemies and people who fight level 500 enemies. 

Edited by Gurpgork
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42 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Nerfing is nerfing. Don't even start that *. That's how players feel. What are your favorite weapons and play styles? You want them to be "balanced" because you use and enjoy them in game too much? 

Yes I want my weapons and play style “balanced” because a balanced game is a better game.  I don’t need an OP crutch to have fun, and I would rather have multiple options and play styles to use than a handful of broken toys.  
The only players upset are the meta gamers, and hate to break to you but meta gamers are going to be living a cycle of disappointment as they move from meta to meta anyway.  So try out some new weapons.  Put down your S2W pole arms and whips and experiment.  You might even find something you really like.  Or stay on the forums whining your macro isn’t as effective anymore.  Choice is yours.  

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Dude your saying variety died its way more  varied than its ever been now i like nerfs as much as the last person i especially hate the lood rush one but overall its a better mele system and if you play with it a bit im sure youl agree

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Been here since just before update 7, and I must say this is probably the best melee has ever felt to me in this game. Of course, I still remember when all melee was either Dual Fangs for Coptering or Galatine for charge attacks (with the occasional Orthos thrown in for players who didn't tend toward either extreme), so perhaps my perception is a tad different from the average player.

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@George_PPS

No I don't like it when my favorite weapon is nerfed initialy.
It's not something I can't overcome. Because I hope there will come other weapons I will love as much as I love the fulmin atm.
Eventhough I love the fulmin I don't want to be stuck to using only fulmin.
I try to switch weapons every now and then.
From the fulmin I loved the silenced shotgun the most. But now I can make every shotgun silenced with the exilus mod slot.
So even if they nerf the fulmin (and Im sure they will cause yeah it's populair for a reason) There is always something else to move towards to.

So yeah we can be bumbed about this update, complain a little about. But lets face it. As long as we keep playing the game we find other weapons to enjoy, or a slightly different way of killing mobs. The people who always wanna use the meta will find the new meta and use that.
For me this opens up new oppertunities, Make sure the game doesn't get stale.

I myself wouldn't mind new more experimental weapons (like fulmin was in my eyes)
Or new mods that replace the almost 4 mandatory mods (+dam +CC +CD+ Multi)
Hell for all I care make a weapon that is as powerfull as with those mods. But don't allow those 4 mods to be added to the weapon.
Like go super crazy, Have a mod that when shot at a console hacks it for you automaticaly (maybe with a percentage)
Let us Fish wish a harpoon gun (not the fishing rods) with a special mod for it.
Make weapons also more usefull outside of the normal combat.

TLDR:

I kinda went offtopic and I apolagize for it
 

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On 2019-11-02 at 3:43 PM, trst said:

Fun fact: not all "vets" enjoyed the years of powercreep, the joke of an "endgame" we've had, the monotony of endurance runs, or how much certain mods trivialized the game.

 

If people want to leave over some growing pains of a system rework then let them, it's the exact same song and dance of past updates (modding 2.0, parkour 2.0, damage 2.0, etc).

Did people really complain about those updates? I can't even imagine complaining about them in an ironic way.

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33 minutes ago, Druidx said:

Did people really complain about those updates? I can't even imagine complaining about them in an ironic way.

Parkour 2.0 was complained about because the system was still slower than coptering and damage 2.0 got complaints because the old meta weapons (anything that did more puncture damage) were no longer meta. Among other things but these seemed to be the most common.

And I didn't start playing until just after mods 2.0 dropped so I didn't see the intimidate fallout but have heard complaints along the lines of the old system having more depth and more reasons to grind.

Edited by trst
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7 hours ago, pauli133 said:

The only limits I'm seeing are being placed by players who refuse to change how they select and build their tools.

A few things that worked before in specific content no longer work the same way, and players must now adapt to get the sensation of having more power than others that they seek. Good. That's healthy.

except everything works the "same", just worse for some people. I'd say that's the definition of limiting.

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41 minutes ago, jojokaizer said:

except everything works the "same", just worse for some people. I'd say that's the definition of limiting.

Ankyros Prime feels a lot better now. Same with Prisma Skana. I could prob list some of the others that feel like they've improved.

TBH... I don't see this is limiting now...

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Just now, TheHappyTyranid said:

Ankyros Prime feels a lot better now. Same with Prisma Skana. I could prob list some of the others that feel like they've improved.

TBH... I don't see this is limiting now...

all those weapons were fine and usable with rivens or heavy formas. I USED ankyros prime for awhile with just formas and CO. now they nerfed the mods that makes weapon diversity in crit, hybrid, and status to just crit. adding on top of that, all weapons has trouble now in high endurance levels.  like I said before, they normalized all weapons to be "ok". and nerfed/limited all the great weapons to just crap or soso. this update should have been after the enemy scaling update, not before. if they even plan on doing anything with that.

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1 minute ago, jojokaizer said:

all those weapons were fine and usable with rivens or heavy formas. I USED ankyros prime for awhile with just formas and CO. now they nerfed the mods that makes weapon diversity in crit, hybrid, and status to just crit. adding on top of that, all weapons has trouble now in high endurance levels.  like I said before, they normalized all weapons to be "ok". and nerfed/limited all the great weapons to just crap or soso. this update should have been after the enemy scaling update, not before. if they even plan on doing anything with that.

I'm not sure how to break it to you but I have an unforma'd and rivenless Ankyros Prime and Prisma Skana. They just sat in my inventory till the update cause I didn't want to get rid of them.

As for the higher levels; while I have been around since fusion cores were a thing and the orbiter didn't have a backdoor or downstairs, I don't do higher level missions... it's only if I want to challenge myself if I want to do that, and oftentimes I just play Dark Souls instead. I fail to see a problem if there is one; I doubt I will because I don't do those kinds of missions.

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1 minute ago, TheHappyTyranid said:

I'm not sure how to break it to you but I have an unforma'd and rivenless Ankyros Prime and Prisma Skana. They just sat in my inventory till the update cause I didn't want to get rid of them.

As for the higher levels; while I have been around since fusion cores were a thing and the orbiter didn't have a backdoor or downstairs, I don't do higher level missions... it's only if I want to challenge myself if I want to do that, and oftentimes I just play Dark Souls instead. I fail to see a problem if there is one; I doubt I will because I don't do those kinds of missions.

so it doesn't limit you, therefore it limits no one? it your choice to not test out those weapons, which works perfectly fine for the content you play.

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Just now, jojokaizer said:

so it doesn't limit you, therefore it limits no one? it your choice to not test out those weapons, which works perfectly fine for the content you play.

I wasn't saying that! I was saying that I don't see your problem because your situation is so radically different from mine. I physically can't see it because my gameplay will likely never be similar to yours. 

*sigh*

I can appreciate people going above and beyond for games like this and testing the barriers. But I can't help but feel like you're doing content in warframe that wasn't really meant to be explored. 

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4 minutes ago, TheHappyTyranid said:

I wasn't saying that! I was saying that I don't see your problem because your situation is so radically different from mine. I physically can't see it because my gameplay will likely never be similar to yours. 

*sigh*

I can appreciate people going above and beyond for games like this and testing the barriers. But I can't help but feel like you're doing content in warframe that wasn't really meant to be explored. 

you're not even making sense now at this point. you say you don't do hard content, I am telling you that people do. is that hard to understand? and who are you to tell the player base what they should or should not explore, when you only scratched the surface of the game?

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20 minutes ago, jojokaizer said:

you're not even making sense now at this point. you say you don't do hard content, I am telling you that people do. is that hard to understand? and who are you to tell the player base what they should or should not explore, when you only scratched the surface of the game?

Dude... You didn't even get my point. You're just flinging around accusations that are baseless.

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On 2019-11-03 at 3:09 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

and CO is total trash.

This is blatantly false.

Before, CO gave 60% extra damage to targets per status effect, but you could pick a weapon that allows you to stack 5 status types and get 300% extra damage.

Now it gives 120% extra damage, with a max of 3 stacks, for... 360% extra damage. Meaning weapons that only have 3 status types now are better than what you used to do. And keep in mind that now ALL melee damage has been buffed to deal at least as much damage as what used to be the 2.0x combo multiplier, and we can make effective use of the Heavy Slam/Attack when we really need to hit hard.

If you're not even going to do the simple math that shows why CO is actually better, then you're beyond help and there's no point in me discussing builds with you.

On 2019-11-03 at 3:09 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

That's exactly what most of you on the other side of the argument are doing.  "I'm so glad they did this."  "Finally nerfed those spin-to-win players."  "This needed to happen.(but I'm not going to give a reason why, but it's because I hate other people having fun.)"

Yes, we are glad they did this. No, it has nothing to do with what other players do. When one specific build is OP, there is absolutely NO reason to use OTHER builds, and the game has to be balanced around that one OP build. Queue all the rest of us vets complaining about the lack of challenge in this game. It sets the bar for how to play high enough that other builds are worthless. Because those mods do NOT exist in a vacuum.

The one bit of "gloating" I feel like doing over this is that the game now rewards skillful melee building (and execution) instead of just stacking the perfect spin2win build. And that's STILL not about looking down on other players, but simply enjoying the fact that we are rewarded for skillful play, instead of being pigeonholed into a build that doesn't.

On 2019-11-03 at 3:09 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

I'm not going to die repeatedly without my spin to win or my redeemer prime

If you can't adapt to this, then you absolutely do need to "git gud" because the rest of us have adapted just fine. My Redeemer Prime still hits like a truck.

Hell, many of my old builds didn't even have to change, though I'm still tweaking because building for combos actually matters more than just for Blood Rush. My Oberon's Silva and Aegis Prime is actually hitting like a truck now, and its stance actually feels good for once.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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16 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Now it gives 120% extra damage, with a max of 3 stacks, for... 360% extra damage. Meaning weapons that only have 3 status types now are better than what you used to do. And keep in mind that now ALL melee damage has been buffed to deal at least as much damage as what used to be the 2.0x combo multiplier, and we can make effective use of the Heavy Slam/Attack when we really need to hit hard.

Actually, CO remains uncapped, they just changed the formula so it works like pressure point.

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12 minutes ago, Atsia said:

Actually, CO remains uncapped, they just changed the formula so it works like pressure point.

Huh. I could've sworn they were capping it at 3 stacks.

Still, CO isn't trash. It's just not OP, which isn't the same as "trash"

Frankly, if the game actually does "require" OP mods/builds for players to function, they absolutely need to address HP/armor scaling ASAP.
It doesn't, but they should still address it.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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32 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

This is blatantly false.
Before, CO gave 60% extra damage to targets per status effect, but you could pick a weapon that allows you to stack 5 status types and get 300% extra damage.
Now it gives 120% extra damage, with a max of 3 stacks, for... 360% extra damage.

Go back to your math class and to compare 1.2 x 3  VS 1.6^14. CO's max potential has been nerfed by more than 20000% . (200 times weaker at max potential). Procing 6, 7, 8, or 9+ status is not hard with some carefully modded loadouts that provide synergy as well between melee and guns.  In any case, CO has been nerfed massively unless you prefer to see diminishing numbers over time.

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On 2019-11-04 at 3:16 PM, Hawkstormz said:

Dude your saying variety died its way more  varied than its ever been now i like nerfs as much as the last person i especially hate the lood rush one but overall its a better mele system and if you play with it a bit im sure youl agree

No it's not! Almost everything tacked onto heavy attacks is a complete waste of time, including the mods and arcanes. Build diversity for both weapons, and Warframe just tanked. Some maybe using more weapons than before but the build variety is gone. Unless all you ever do is play the star chart, and and never do more than 10 minutes in a mission. In which case anything is usable just as before.

Leaving your Lich at 5 so you have a nice selection of nodes at 95-110 is nice though. I wish DE would give me an option to choose a level range for all missions, and it would be nice if that option included a starting level of 200+.

PS. It's you're, or you are, not your.

Edited by Nichivo

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