DE, the Lich System is bad and it needs to change.

[MirageKnight]

I’ve spent many hours and many years on Warframe, and this is the first time I’ve actually regretted any of that playtime. Warframe has gotten me through some incredibly tough times, and as a result I’ve become heavily invested in it - both personally and financially. I find DE’s continuing trend away from treating player time as being valuable to be repugnant, and I really hope to see a meaningful change for the better in that respect. 

To cut to the chase, the new Lich system has so much wrong with it that makes the game off-putting. I'd even go so far to say that it's the most disgusting and disrespectful serving of grind in Warframe's history I've ever had the misfortune of experiencing.

This all started after I killed a Larva a little while after I got the update. A couple of hours later, it was a full blown Lich and I wound up clearing out its influence on two planets. The next day, after only two attempts to kill it, said Lich was now level 5 and half the star chart is coated with red. I spent 2 hours clearing away nodes only to have everything set back to square one. Meaning I now have to slog through all those nodes AGAIN plus some new ones, fighting anywhere between level 50 and level 100 Grineer. This whole thing is a terrible way to respect player time and effort.

The really sad thing is that I was really looking forward to this update and was for the most part enjoying it. Reworked lighting (which turned out to be borderline realistic and awesome), further melee reworks (which is a real mixed bag...e.g. the combos for Nikana stances are not fluid at all), Vauban's rework (which actually puts him in a better place than he used to be but could use some polish), and Ember's rework (which makes her FAR less brain-dead and more interactive now). For the most part, I was thinking "Wow - DE's really making an effort here towards making the game more immersive and enjoyable while providing some decent challenge." Then the Lich system came along and in one day took what I consider to be a steaming dump on my keyboard and throw most of my time and effort into the trash. The core part of the update ruined the entire experience for me, to the point where I logged out and didn't touch the game for 2-3 days.

I decided to finally beat my Lich just to clear all the nodes and converted it to an ally. The latest hotfixes have addressed a handful of issues, such as a better more accident-free "opt-in" mechanic, but there are some big problems that still remain and really ought to be addressed which I mentioned earlier.

With that out of the way, these are my core criticisms of the Lich Nemesis system:

-The Lich doesn't really feel like a proper lich. A lich is an undead creature, transformed by rituals / spells so that the creature's soul is bound to an object to avert death. Even if the body is decayed, it is still capable of movement and action. I really don't get an undead Grineer vibe from it at all.

-The Lich doesn't even feel like a proper "nemesis". There's very little interaction with it. It doesn't even actively hunt us. Rather, it only attacks us when sufficiently provoked. What we have is nothing more than a Warframe'd Grineer with a weird vengeance complex.

"Congratulations soldier, you've been chosen by YOUR Queen! If some Tenno shoots you up and then stabs you in the neck with a weird knife, we'll rescue and revive you, medically experiment on you, promote you, give you some cool gear and troops to command!" Yeah, that's what it boils down to and it's some really crappy origin lore.

-Lich influence spreads too fast and encompasses too wide an area, which trivializes player efforts (outside of straight-up killing / converting it) too severely.

-Fighting the Lich yields little if any satisfaction; it consists of arbitrary win/lose conditions that take agency away from the player. This is not how you build a compelling rival. It is how you build an annoyance that you are compelled to avoid. 

-The multi-layered RNG grind required to participate in the system is incredibly off-putting. RNG relic acquisition. RNG requiem mod acquisition. RNG requiem sequence. It’s too much, especially when requiem mods require constant collection. Forcing players to GUESS when they might not even OWN the right answer is just plain stupid and insulting.

-With regard to the whole "paying the Lich tribute" thing is concerned...How is this Lich able to "tax" us anyway? Why would I pay my enemy a tax for stuff I took from "their" node? And if the "taxed" portion was stolen by the Lich, how is that even possible? I went and physically collected those credits, mods, and resources myself and sent them to my lander / orbiter. And if the Lich has access to my Lander right up to the point where I'm leaving, why only take a percentage of what I picked up? Why not take everything? It hates me, no? This makes no sense at all. 

-Now Let's talk about enemy levels. Level 90-100 (and higher) enemies. This is even on Lua. Which has Sentients. What the hell were you thinking, DE? Sentients are pretty tanky at level 40-50 as-is and this is just worse. The Operator is damn near useless except for resetting resistances. Also, level 100 Demolyst units in Disruption are extremely difficult - if not impossible - to kill quickly enough without having to resort to cheese. Not all of us like or can deal with Sortie-level content.

-The number of Thralls we need to shank to unlock each code phrase is too high. Right now, it feels like another exhausting chore added to the pile.

-Having Kuva as a possible reward for cracking open Requiem Relics is nothing more than needless drop-table filler. I feel I need to remind everyone that some of us have absolutely no interest in chasing after Rivens. Personally, I have a stockpile of Kuva so massive I have no clue what to do with it. Having an Ayatan Star as an additional possible reward is just plain insulting when it can picked up in any mission. In addition, the whole damn Lich system involves one tedious Kuva-related / themed mission after another.

-Having a Lich automatically leveling up and spreading influence if you complete all available Lich missions without you dying to it or you simply ignoring it is a feature that needs to go. This is nothing more that unfair, time-wasting, punishing "motivation" to engage a Lich. 

-Then there's the Lich itself: A tanky, gimmicky enemy that somehow has Warframe abilities thanks to Kuva transfusions and can and will one shot players. This is not how I define fun. Also, punishing players for not getting the right decoder ring / imitation Skyrim Power Words to shut down / convert your Lich is not cool in my book at all. The fight itself has a completely binary outcome. Either you win and have your option of getting a new weapon whose stats are determined by RNG or a new friend...or you lose and the Lich gets even harder to kill and his friends invade even more space that you'll need to clear out if you want all your proper mission rewards back. In addition, the Lich insults us almost constantly on the mission screens. These are all really terrible incentives for me to fight it, let alone consider turning it into an ally. Rather, this is how you build a hated, annoying adversary that normal people would rather just avoid. A trash-talking Lich you can beat down after a good fight? I'd be happy to meet that challenge. A trash-talking Lich given cheap wins through arbitrary advantages and by placing shackles around my ankles? No thanks, I like and want my fights to be fair. 

-Then there's the much reported issue of players getting duplicate Kuva weapons when farming Lichs for weapons. From reading numerous posts, this is incredibly frustrating for a lot of players and DE's solution to provide a means of "merging" duplicate weapons only serves to treat the symptom, not the actual problem.

-Last but certainly not least...having Requiem "code phrase" mods disappear after x number of successful uses is a kick in the proverbial crotch. Farming those mods is tedious enough as is and forcing us to continue grinding for the things after 3 successful conversions is a bit much. This doesn't respect player time and effort and it's inconsistent with how mods normally work.

All this doesn't constitute actual "challenge". This is rage-inducing, punching holes-in-walls, head-desking, tiring, and frustrating levels of grind, rng and unfairness.

So at the end of it all, what do I and others get out of putting up with all this grind, rng, and punishing gameplay? 

1. A weapon that has random elemental stats and new mechanics that should probably have been on the normal version of the weapon it's based on...A weapon that more than likely will wind up becoming Mastery fodder. A weapon that will require 5 Forma to achieve Mastery with. 5 Forma. If a player wants or needs Mastery for all 13 weapons, that's 65 Forma that needs to be expended. Most of these weapons only need 4 Forma to unlock their potential. Also, there's a decent chance of getting a duplicate weapon if you keep going after Liches. Fun. 

Or you can get...

2. A tough ally that MIGHT show up on a mission for a couple of minutes to help you out if you're really low on health.

The rewards really don't justify the effort put into getting them.

So what can be done to address the problems?

- Overall difficulty: Not everyone is capable of running Sortie-level missions or wants to do so. I'd highly recommend dropping enemy levels to 60 at most.

- The Lich nemesis: The Lich nemesis should be defeated by "normal" means, but require the Parazon with the right phrase sequence for kill permanence or conversion to an ally. Conversely, attempting a jab with the Parazon without the right mod sequence should not result in the player getting K.O.'d, nor should it level up the Lich. Instead, have the Lich nemesis initiate an emergency teleport escape to fight another day. The Lich should only be able to level up if it actually defeats you in a fight. If / When it beats you, it levels up and retakes the nodes you previously cleared, but no more than that. Also, the Lich nemesis needs to be a far more active hunter and perhaps have a chance of attacking you in normal missions as well as nodes under its influence. 

- The Lich ally: They need to be far more reliable. Right now they're unreliable and not worth the effort expended in obtaining them. Ideally, allow them to be summoned via a craftable beacon, but restrict the use of the beacon to once per mission. The Lich ally should also be able to revive a player if running a solo mission. I'd also like to see a bit more lore / relationship between the player and their new ally / allies. Think about it...you defeated a really tough opponent that wanted to destroy you on multiple levels, yet you spared their life, gave them an opportunity to redeem themselves, and freed them from the Worm Queen's control. If I were the Lich, I'd be indebted to my former adversary.

- Duplicate weapons: Dupes shouldn't even exist. As a solution, when generating a Lich nemesis for a player, the game could do one of two things. The first would be to check for existing Kuva weapons in the player's inventory and only equip the Lich with a random weapon that the player does NOT have. This would to prevent instances of players winding up with duplicate Kuva weapons. If the player has all the Kuva weapons that are available, the game is allowed to generate a random Kuva weapon for the Lich nemesis. There's still a bit of grind and randomness involved to get the weapon you want, but at least there's no chance of getting a duplicate weapon. Another idea would be to give the Larva a regular version of the Kuva weapon it would get if it became a Lich nemesis. This way, players can quickly decide as to whether or not to simply gun down the Larva and let it die or trigger it so that it turns into a Lich with the appropriate Kuva weapon. The second solution gives the player more agency in what they're getting at the end of the grind and thus involves less wasted grind.

Player: "Hey, that Larva has a Quartakk in this mission but I want to get my hands on a Kuva Tonkor. Never mind." or "Ooooo, that one's got a Stubba! Here we go!"

- Kuva weapons in general:  In terms of mastery and modding, they should be treated like any other weapon - max level of 30 and leveling to 30 on the first go gives the player Mastery. In addition, players should be refunded at least 2 Forma for every Kuva weapon they own that's been Mastered for their troubles.

- Murmurs: The number of Thralls that players need to "mercy kill" to get Murmurs really ought to drop by half.

- Requiem mods: Remove the "charge" mechanic completely (preferably) or at least allow players to recharge depleted mods with Kuva.

- Requiem Relics: Remove Kuva and Ayatan Amber Stars from the drop tables. I'd rather that Requiem mods drop by themselves, but that's never going to happen.

- Tax / Tribute system: Either remove the ability to tax us or rework pickups so that you pick up only 50-75% of what you'd normally get, to represent the Lich nemesis and its forces pillaging the area.

- Lich nemesis system in general: Give players the option of extending a "peace offering" to their Lich nemesis so that it will go away and leave the player alone. In addition, Lich "candidates" / Larvalings should be Commander / Eximus units, not normal troops...The "Old Blood" should be a gift bestowed by the Worm Queen and her lackeys to important Grineer they don't want to lose. Also, for a system that requires the player to have finished The War Within, the Operator's part in all this is notably absent. Honestly, it's fantastic that using the Operator to help defeat a Lich nemesis hasn't been forced on us and I'm extremely grateful for that, but it would be nice if using the Operator had a small part in the proceedings. 

- Lich Nemesis system "opt-in": It's certainly better now than it was on Day 1 of release, but a better solution would be to have it as a quest that can be run multiple times. Activating the quest generates a nemesis unit that has been given orders to hunt you and other Tenno down...but it isn't a Lich yet. "Killing" the nemesis triggers its retrieval and conversion into a "Lich", whereupon it resumes its hunt for the player.
 

DE, we play games to have fun and escape the real world for a little while. As is stands right now, opting into the Lich nemesis system makes Warframe feel far more like a second, unpaid job and I don't like to play games that do that to people.

At the risk of repeating myself and as other users have suggested elsewhere, it would be GREATLY appreciated if players had some means of getting out of the Lich hunt if they feel they can't handle it or simply don't want to deal with the monumental grind and RNG any more. Again, I'd like to promote an option where we, as players, can try and simply make peace with our Lich so that it leaves us alone as long as we do the same.

See below:

Kudos to @EmailSoup for this suggestion. Players that feel overwhelmed by their Lich or simply feel it's not worth the hassle have a reasonable way out and players that are intent on farming Liches can completely ignore that option. Introducing a Peace Offering option is not only a win-win move, but more importantly it's also the right thing to do.

I'd also like to give a shout out to @Aesthier for their suggestion that the Lich system be made into a repeatable quest that can be activated anytime you want a Lich.

Edited November 12, 2019 by MirageKnight
Added / amended some suggestions and cleaned up the post.

[Genitive]

5 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

I suggest making the Lich killable by "normal" means, but requiring the Parazon for kill permanence or conversion.

That's a great way to waste the development time and kill the new system entirely.

 

[CodeVauban]

hace 6 minutos, Genitive dijo:

That's a great way to waste the development time and kill the new system entirely.

 

So you're saying its ok when they make us waste our time then?

[Gabbynaru]

5 minutes ago, Genitive said:

That's a great way to waste the development time and kill the new system entirely.

 

Tell that to Shadow of Mordor, that's exactly how they did it. You could kill them by normal means, but you needed powers to have them join you. I genuinely wouldn't mind that, especially if the Liches could spawn in normal missions too, they'd be a nice distraction like the Stalker or G3, but more of a pain in the a** (especially mine with it's hitscan Tonkor that nails me before I even see it).

[HIGHDAMAGE]

20 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

 1. A weapon that has random elemental stats and new mechanics that should have been on the normal version of the weapon it's based on. A weapon that more than likely will become Mastery fodder. 

this make my grind + 5 formas be worth it

[bad4youLT]

So I read the entire thing and I must ask , are you bite size player ?

[Serafim_94]

You can avoid lich-controlled missions by not selecting them. Which, I'm pretty sure, entirely opts you out of the system.

 

Outside the initial mod grind, I think liches are fine. But mod grind is #*!%ing ungodly.

[Genitive]

2 minutes ago, CodeVauban said:

So you're saying its ok when they make us waste our time then?

Don't put words in my mouth, will you?

1 minute ago, Gabbynaru said:

Tell that to Shadow of Mordor, that's exactly how they did it. You could kill them by normal means, but you needed powers to have them join you. I genuinely wouldn't mind that, especially if the Liches could spawn in normal missions too, they'd be a nice distraction like the Stalker or G3, but more of a pain in the a** (especially mine with it's hitscan Tonkor that nails me before I even see it).

Eh, I prefer the current system, I think the requiem thing is really cool. An I don't want liches to become disposable mini-bosses like the rest. DE should focus on reducing the grind – increase relic drop rates, reduce amount of murmurs required to discover a phrase, stuff like that, but the core should stay as it is.

[bad4youLT]

Just now, Serafim_94 said:

You can avoid lich-controlled missions by not selecting them. Which, I'm pretty sure, entirely opts you out of the system.

 

If lich has atleast one node under controle the entire planet will have "idiot taks" even if your not participating in thrall hunts

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, Genitive said:

Eh, I prefer the current system, I think the requiem thing is really cool. An I don't want liches to become disposable mini-bosses like the rest. DE should focus on reducing the grind – increase relic drop rates, reduce amount of murmurs required to discover a phrase, stuff like that, but the core should stay as it is.

You clearly didn't bother trying to understand the original suggestion, because it doesn't make liches any more "disposable" than they already are. There is nothing "disposable" about a nemesis that repeatedly comes back from defeat, growing stronger every time, up until you finally figure out how to kill/convert them for good.

All it does is undercut the frustration factor of cheaply "losing" to a lich just because you don't have the right mods or sequence yet. Forced, arbitrary failures aren't going to be fun for most players, but struggling with a powerful rival on mostly even footing could be. An enemy that repeatedly resurrects from death would also fit the whole "lich" theme better, IMO.

[MirageKnight]

Someone proposed an interesting solution for people that for whatever reason have decided that really don't want to deal with the whole Lich thing right now (myself being one of those people). I encourage you all to give it a read.

Needless to say, this gets a major thumbs up from me.

[DatDarkOne]

8 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

The multi-layered RNG grind required to participate in the system is incredibly off-putting. RNG relic acquisition. RNG requiem mod acquisition. RNG requiem sequence. It’s too much, especially when requiem mods require constant collection. Forcing players to GUESS when they might not even OWN the right answer is just plain stupid and insulting.

 

8 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Another point of contention is that throwing Kuva in as a reward for cracking open those Relics is nothing more than needless drop-table filler. Did it ever occur to you devs that maybe some of us have absolutely no interest in chasing after Rivens?

 

8 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Last but certainly not least...having Requiem "code phrase" mods disappear after x number of uses is a kick in the proverbial crotch. Farming those mods is tedious enough as is and forcing us to continue grinding for the things AGAIN when we invariably screw up enough times trying to defeat a Lich just adds insult to injury. This doesn't respect player time and effort in the slightest and it's inconsistent with how mods normally work. This is more arbitrary, time wasting BS that needs to be yanked.

The above statement are the issues I have with the whole Lich process.  The third quote is the one that really feels like a kick in the nuts.  

8 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

DE, we play games to have fun and escape the real world for a little while. The introduction of the Lich system has only served to further turn Warframe into a second, unpaid job and I don't play games that do that to people.

Heck, I spent the last two days playing the game with a Twitch Streamer watching and participating in the whole thing.  They all got their Liches while I was in the missions with them.  I didn't get one.  I've killed numerous Thralls and assisted in killing Liches with absolutely nothing coming my way to help in with my own Lich progression.  Progression which still only at having 4 Requiem Relics, 1 Requiem mod, and no Lich.   I could live with this if it wasn't for the limited nature of the Requiem/Parazon mods.

I'm about to now play the game as I normally do solo, and see if there is any difference in this process.  I'm hoping that it doesn't end up as something that kills my enjoyment of the game as a whole.  

[Askorti]

I vanquished my first Kuva Lich yesterday. And hated pretty much every step of the process. And now that I managed to rid myself of that nuisance, I dread grineer missions, because eventually I will accidentally kill another larvling and this horror will repeat. I do NOT want to participate in this anymore. It's not difficult content. It's annoying. It's a nuisance. It's a pain in the keister. And it's as unrewarding as it gets.

[Whiskered]

For quite some time I don't have much expectations when waiting for a new games or updates, for any game really.

However this time I was somehow hyped and had high expectations about thees Kuva Litches... and sadly I have to say that this was major disappointment.

I understand it that entire nemesis system is one of core elements in Shadow of Mordor and we won't get that level of complexity in it. Dosen't mean that current we have could get better.  I want to throw in some feedback and my opinion about it as this entire hunt is rather unfun thing  to do in game.

So the way Litch is created I am fine more or less with. Kill Kuva infused Grinner and they will become marked for greatness, but why is that limited to nodes that are lvl 20 and above? That sounds rather arbitrary and unnecessary. But still this is minor issue only.

Kuva Litch Progress
Major issue is how after that one kill they are suddenly badass controlling whole planet...and are able to tax us somehow.. I don't mind that our loots get stolen. No that is even cool idea good incentive, however such things should occur only on nodes under control of Litch but not whole planet. They way how quickly influence spreads is off. It was advertised that litch would be building up their influence. I was expecting that Litch at the begging without much skills and fairly unmodified weapons and not very interesting look. I was expecting them to behave more like assassins, crashing to our party, be a nuisance. That immortal Grinner could throw them self on his enemy tenno and keeps coming back knowing them better and better and with that building their reputation. If they would manage to beat player in fair fight then they would level up even more and steal their cosmetic items. Many consider "fashion frame" as end game. Having Litch taunt us while wearing our sydana and decorative armours would add insult to injury and make it much more personal.  Also with them leveling  their looks and amount/type of followers changing. They would be using better weapons with time, eventually getting personal moded weapons, based on their preference and history with player. Similarly their skills, at begging having no skills at all and gaining more and more as they got killed by different warframes. Why limit their skills to four only? It could go up more up to six or eight or even be dependent on litch itself.

Eventually litch would stop hunting players just their kill teams, litch them self would hide and players should run missions to gather Intel to see where the litch is now. Like run spy missions on controlled nodes and you will get additional reward of current litch location.


Dealing with them for good
I'd say it is rather bullS#&$ that those special mods are locked behind relics that occur in only two mission types. While majority of players are addicted to rivens and kuva farming..there could be more ways to get those relics. Like from litch encounters in random missions and even their followers should have chance of dropping  requiem mods. Entire  new relic dedicated to killing litch is neither fun nor interesting, moreover feels heavily detached from rest of the game.  I would much rather have some resource that drops from thralls and this resource would be needed to craft those mods/runes. Finally facing of the litch right now it is game of guessing and dying. Either playing guess the order  wrong and you die or player guess right and they die/become friends. Also guessing wrong making them stronger doesn't make much sense. Shouldn't it make them weaker? Slow their influence spread, cripple them. Remove their skills or even prevent from spawning for few missions.

Rewards
........Are weak, unreliable "friend" or their weapon, with element  based on  the table below.


It is not very interesting reward as sole reward and also this table doesn't make much sense.
If there is physical aspect present, then why it's only impact? If there is impact why not Slash/Puncture too. Garuda/ Valkyr/ Gara/Ash and Khora would be perfect for that.  Why Atlas and Oberon are Toxin?
Then also why there is no Blast/Corrosive/Viral ?

Couldn't their weapon develop as they would do? Being a keepsake after the litch.
Got killed with sneaky frame like ash/loki/ivara ? Weapon gets silnced.
Got killed by tanky frame? weapon gets bonus puncture.
Got killed by fast frame? Magazine capacity or fire rate or reload speed goes up.

And so on and on.

There are also new kuva ltich Armour bundles....that are obtainable through market only as a bundle. For a while I thought those would be drops from litches too but nope. We have ephermas but could be something more unique than gas cloud around.

I hope and wish this system would grow and develop into something greater and actually fun to play.


Now I am worried about the railjack update.

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Whiskered

[Whiskered]

Over time things were better and worse.

Setting and base game is just simply fun but additional systems are rough and gate locked behind arbitrary numbers, that doesn't relay reflect progress that well or make you feel progressing with something.

It is bearable with syndicates and fortuna/cetus.
But this Litch system is overkill.

[MirageKnight]

As was suggested by another player (I can't recall who, so my apologies), perhaps Lich candidates should only spawn on Kuva Fortress tilesets...and maybe only in Exterminate missions. They have no business spawning in Defense maps, where it's far too easy to potentially create a Lich without intending to.

With that out of the way, I'd also like to take the time to say thanks to everyone participating in this discussion and keeping it active. This is really important. The way I see it, the only way the Lich system can be fixed so that it's fairer and more enjoyable for all concerned is if we players make enough noise that DE can't help BUT notice there's a huge problem and do something about it.

If you agree that the level of grind and RNG in the LIch system is too much, that the mechanics are too unforgiving and arbitrary, and so on...do yourself a favor and upvote ANY AND ALL posts that ask for the LIch system to be made more tolerable and fair for all concerned!

Thanks for reading and keeping this civil, respectful, and helpful.

13 hours ago, Whiskered said:

Now I am worried about the railjack update.

So am I and everyone should be concerned. In one of the dev streams, it was implied that the Lich system ties into that.

[Mach25]

This system is unacceptable. Normally, I'd go on about my business, but something this onerous needs to be addressed. After reading your post, I'm going to assume an infested Corpus overlord hacked the designs on someone's computer and came up with this convoluted...thing.

I hope to see a quick, favorable resolution that is enjoyable to both players and developers.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Mach25

[FullAutoTyphlosion]

every issue I have with the lich sytem, right here.
it's just one big massive slap in the face and feels incredibly insulting in it's entirety.

[tomrair]

To be honest, I really don't understand what lead DE to design the Lich system in this way. It's been brewing in developement for so long, and the early concepts they showed in the devstreams looked promising. But now that it's out, I think there's no other conclusion than from a game design point of view, this is a failure.

Not that there's nothing good in there, the character models of the Liches look great, as does the animation when they get killed, their voice lines are well written and voice-acted, the requiem mods are beautiful - clearly some competent work went into it.

But then the mechanics of how Liches are created, how you fight them, how they interact with the game world and the player, and what rewards you get from them, all of it is so bland and generic and feels so, I don't know, thoughtless? Careless? Rushed? Just not intelligent? Was there really nobody in DE's design conferences who stood up and said "hey folks, that's bad game design right there, let's not do it this way"? How ow on earth did they end up with this boring, repetitive, unrewarding grindfest?

[LazyBunnyKiera]

DE really needed to let some beta testers play it, that weren't in-house. Everyone that works FOR DE is going to say, "yeah this is great."

For me however. Thus Murmur grind, is just annoying. I'm not sure how much each thrall gives, but it's not enough. Doing 10-15 or MORE missions just to fill a single murmur... that's not fun. These aren't a challenge. I'm not even bothering with my lich, if she shows up, i ignore her and carry on.

I only got the lich, while i was otherwise trying to avoid them, since i thought if i got a lich, i could do my telesto and adaro sleep-equinox runs without everything getting alerted, but nope.. larva still show up and alert everything.

At this point, i'd like to opt out of the lich event altogether. I have over 4100 hours ingame, i like being able to do what i want when i want. But now i'm having this forced down my throat. I can't play the game normally now until i get rid of this lich, and once i do, what's to say i won't accidentally get another one on the next mission.

Murmurs should take no more than 20 thralls to completely fill up. Since once we have all the murmurs, we still have to get the requiem mods and figure out what order they go in. Or get rid of the thrall system entirely and just make it so we do 4-5 missions to unlock a murmur.

[DerDzvero]

Agree with every single word. Terrible decision to push that as almost mandatory content. That is a reason one should not invest money in Betas and MMOs with questionable design concept.
Just the idea that everyone that finished "The War Within" is ready to get swamped by that "content" and do sortie-alike missions under time & rng pressure is ridiculous and demonstrates complete lack of video game design knowledge.

Edited November 4, 2019 by DerDzvero

[Volinus7]

As if other Warframe's updates weren't peppering you with annoyances and bundles ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[LazyBunnyKiera]

How long is this Lich event going on for? I'm probably just going to log on to do sorties and nightwave and that's it until this event is over. Since i'm starting to get pretty distraught with these dang murmurs. If they want to make it take 50 murmurs, they need to quadruple how many spawn in a mission.
Or make it take like 15-20 murmurs and still increase the number of spawns.
This just isn't fun.

[Askorti]

2 minutes ago, LazyBunnyKiera said:

How long is this Lich event going on for? I'm probably just going to log on to do sorties and nightwave and that's it until this event is over. Since i'm starting to get pretty distraught with these dang murmurs. If they want to make it take 50 murmurs, they need to quadruple how many spawn in a mission.
Or make it take like 15-20 murmurs and still increase the number of spawns.
This just isn't fun.

It's not a timed event. It's going to go on forever. Or until they change things.

[George_PPS]

I could give OP ten likes if I could, agreeing 99%. @MirageKnight I'll come back to reply more tomorrow.