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MirageKnight

DE, the Lich System is bad and it needs to change.

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5 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

I suggest making the Lich killable by "normal" means, but requiring the Parazon for kill permanence or conversion.

That's a great way to waste the development time and kill the new system entirely.

 

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hace 6 minutos, Genitive dijo:

That's a great way to waste the development time and kill the new system entirely.

 

So you're saying its ok when they make us waste our time then?

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5 minutes ago, Genitive said:

That's a great way to waste the development time and kill the new system entirely.

 

Tell that to Shadow of Mordor, that's exactly how they did it. You could kill them by normal means, but you needed powers to have them join you. I genuinely wouldn't mind that, especially if the Liches could spawn in normal missions too, they'd be a nice distraction like the Stalker or G3, but more of a pain in the a** (especially mine with it's hitscan Tonkor that nails me before I even see it).

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20 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

 1. A weapon that has random elemental stats and new mechanics that should have been on the normal version of the weapon it's based on. A weapon that more than likely will become Mastery fodder. 

this make my grind + 5 formas be worth it

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So I read the entire thing and I must ask , are you bite size player ?

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You can avoid lich-controlled missions by not selecting them. Which, I'm pretty sure, entirely opts you out of the system.

 

Outside the initial mod grind, I think liches are fine. But mod grind is #*!%ing ungodly.

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2 minutes ago, CodeVauban said:

So you're saying its ok when they make us waste our time then?

Don't put words in my mouth, will you?

1 minute ago, Gabbynaru said:

Tell that to Shadow of Mordor, that's exactly how they did it. You could kill them by normal means, but you needed powers to have them join you. I genuinely wouldn't mind that, especially if the Liches could spawn in normal missions too, they'd be a nice distraction like the Stalker or G3, but more of a pain in the a** (especially mine with it's hitscan Tonkor that nails me before I even see it).

Eh, I prefer the current system, I think the requiem thing is really cool. An I don't want liches to become disposable mini-bosses like the rest. DE should focus on reducing the grind – increase relic drop rates, reduce amount of murmurs required to discover a phrase, stuff like that, but the core should stay as it is.

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Just now, Serafim_94 said:

You can avoid lich-controlled missions by not selecting them. Which, I'm pretty sure, entirely opts you out of the system.

 

If lich has atleast one node under controle the entire planet will have "idiot taks" even if your not participating in thrall hunts

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1 hour ago, Genitive said:

Eh, I prefer the current system, I think the requiem thing is really cool. An I don't want liches to become disposable mini-bosses like the rest. DE should focus on reducing the grind – increase relic drop rates, reduce amount of murmurs required to discover a phrase, stuff like that, but the core should stay as it is.

You clearly didn't bother trying to understand the original suggestion, because it doesn't make liches any more "disposable" than they already are. There is nothing "disposable" about a nemesis that repeatedly comes back from defeat, growing stronger every time, up until you finally figure out how to kill/convert them for good.

All it does is undercut the frustration factor of cheaply "losing" to a lich just because you don't have the right mods or sequence yet. Forced, arbitrary failures aren't going to be fun for most players, but struggling with a powerful rival on mostly even footing could be. An enemy that repeatedly resurrects from death would also fit the whole "lich" theme better, IMO.

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Someone proposed an interesting solution for people that for whatever reason have decided that really don't want to deal with the whole Lich thing right now (myself being one of those people). I encourage you all to give it a read.

Needless to say, this gets a major thumbs up from me.

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8 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

The multi-layered RNG grind required to participate in the system is incredibly off-putting. RNG relic acquisition. RNG requiem mod acquisition. RNG requiem sequence. It’s too much, especially when requiem mods require constant collection. Forcing players to GUESS when they might not even OWN the right answer is just plain stupid and insulting.

 

8 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Another point of contention is that throwing Kuva in as a reward for cracking open those Relics is nothing more than needless drop-table filler. Did it ever occur to you devs that maybe some of us have absolutely no interest in chasing after Rivens?

 

8 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Last but certainly not least...having Requiem "code phrase" mods disappear after x number of uses is a kick in the proverbial crotch. Farming those mods is tedious enough as is and forcing us to continue grinding for the things AGAIN when we invariably screw up enough times trying to defeat a Lich just adds insult to injury. This doesn't respect player time and effort in the slightest and it's inconsistent with how mods normally work. This is more arbitrary, time wasting BS that needs to be yanked.

The above statement are the issues I have with the whole Lich process.  The third quote is the one that really feels like a kick in the nuts.  

8 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

DE, we play games to have fun and escape the real world for a little while. The introduction of the Lich system has only served to further turn Warframe into a second, unpaid job and I don't play games that do that to people.

Heck, I spent the last two days playing the game with a Twitch Streamer watching and participating in the whole thing.  They all got their Liches while I was in the missions with them.  I didn't get one.  I've killed numerous Thralls and assisted in killing Liches with absolutely nothing coming my way to help in with my own Lich progression.  Progression which still only at having 4 Requiem Relics, 1 Requiem mod, and no Lich.   I could live with this if it wasn't for the limited nature of the Requiem/Parazon mods.

I'm about to now play the game as I normally do solo, and see if there is any difference in this process.  I'm hoping that it doesn't end up as something that kills my enjoyment of the game as a whole.  

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I vanquished my first Kuva Lich yesterday. And hated pretty much every step of the process. And now that I managed to rid myself of that nuisance, I dread grineer missions, because eventually I will accidentally kill another larvling and this horror will repeat. I do NOT want to participate in this anymore. It's not difficult content. It's annoying. It's a nuisance. It's a pain in the keister. And it's as unrewarding as it gets.

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For quite some time I don't have much expectations when waiting for a new games or updates, for any game really.

However this time I was somehow hyped and had high expectations about thees Kuva Litches... and sadly I have to say that this was major disappointment.

I understand it that entire nemesis system is one of core elements in Shadow of Mordor and we won't get that level of complexity in it. Dosen't mean that current we have could get better.  I want to throw in some feedback and my opinion about it as this entire hunt is rather unfun thing  to do in game.

So the way Litch is created I am fine more or less with. Kill Kuva infused Grinner and they will become marked for greatness, but why is that limited to nodes that are lvl 20 and above? That sounds rather arbitrary and unnecessary. But still this is minor issue only.

Kuva Litch Progress
Major issue is how after that one kill they are suddenly badass controlling whole planet...and are able to tax us somehow.. I don't mind that our loots get stolen. No that is even cool idea good incentive, however such things should occur only on nodes under control of Litch but not whole planet. They way how quickly influence spreads is off. It was advertised that litch would be building up their influence. I was expecting that Litch at the begging without much skills and fairly unmodified weapons and not very interesting look. I was expecting them to behave more like assassins, crashing to our party, be a nuisance. That immortal Grinner could throw them self on his enemy tenno and keeps coming back knowing them better and better and with that building their reputation. If they would manage to beat player in fair fight then they would level up even more and steal their cosmetic items. Many consider "fashion frame" as end game. Having Litch taunt us while wearing our sydana and decorative armours would add insult to injury and make it much more personal.  Also with them leveling  their looks and amount/type of followers changing. They would be using better weapons with time, eventually getting personal moded weapons, based on their preference and history with player. Similarly their skills, at begging having no skills at all and gaining more and more as they got killed by different warframes. Why limit their skills to four only? It could go up more up to six or eight or even be dependent on litch itself.

Eventually litch would stop hunting players just their kill teams, litch them self would hide and players should run missions to gather Intel to see where the litch is now. Like run spy missions on controlled nodes and you will get additional reward of current litch location.


Dealing with them for good
I'd say it is rather bullS#&$ that those special mods are locked behind relics that occur in only two mission types. While majority of players are addicted to rivens and kuva farming..there could be more ways to get those relics. Like from litch encounters in random missions and even their followers should have chance of dropping  requiem mods. Entire  new relic dedicated to killing litch is neither fun nor interesting, moreover feels heavily detached from rest of the game.  I would much rather have some resource that drops from thralls and this resource would be needed to craft those mods/runes. Finally facing of the litch right now it is game of guessing and dying. Either playing guess the order  wrong and you die or player guess right and they die/become friends. Also guessing wrong making them stronger doesn't make much sense. Shouldn't it make them weaker? Slow their influence spread, cripple them. Remove their skills or even prevent from spawning for few missions.

Rewards
........Are weak, unreliable "friend" or their weapon, with element  based on  the table below.
unknown.png

It is not very interesting reward as sole reward and also this table doesn't make much sense.
If there is physical aspect present, then why it's only impact? If there is impact why not Slash/Puncture too. Garuda/ Valkyr/ Gara/Ash and Khora would be perfect for that.  Why Atlas and Oberon are Toxin?
Then also why there is no Blast/Corrosive/Viral ?

Couldn't their weapon develop as they would do? Being a keepsake after the litch.
Got killed with sneaky frame like ash/loki/ivara ? Weapon gets silnced.
Got killed by tanky frame? weapon gets bonus puncture.
Got killed by fast frame? Magazine capacity or fire rate or reload speed goes up.

And so on and on.

There are also new kuva ltich Armour bundles....that are obtainable through market only as a bundle. For a while I thought those would be drops from litches too but nope. We have ephermas but could be something more unique than gas cloud around.

I hope and wish this system would grow and develop into something greater and actually fun to play.


Now I am worried about the railjack update.

 

Edited by Whiskered
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Over time things were better and worse.

Setting and base game is just simply fun but additional systems are rough and gate locked behind arbitrary numbers, that doesn't relay reflect progress that well or make you feel progressing with something.

It is bearable with syndicates and fortuna/cetus.
But this Litch system is overkill.

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As was suggested by another player (I can't recall who, so my apologies), perhaps Lich candidates should only spawn on Kuva Fortress tilesets...and maybe only in Exterminate missions. They have no business spawning in Defense maps, where it's far too easy to potentially create a Lich without intending to.

With that out of the way, I'd also like to take the time to say thanks to everyone participating in this discussion and keeping it active. This is really important. The way I see it, the only way the Lich system can be fixed so that it's fairer and more enjoyable for all concerned is if we players make enough noise that DE can't help BUT notice there's a huge problem and do something about it.

If you agree that the level of grind and RNG in the LIch system is too much, that the mechanics are too unforgiving and arbitrary, and so on...do yourself a favor and upvote ANY AND ALL posts that ask for the LIch system to be made more tolerable and fair for all concerned!

Thanks for reading and keeping this civil, respectful, and helpful.

13 hours ago, Whiskered said:

Now I am worried about the railjack update.

So am I and everyone should be concerned. In one of the dev streams, it was implied that the Lich system ties into that.

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This system is unacceptable. Normally, I'd go on about my business, but something this onerous needs to be addressed. After reading your post, I'm going to assume an infested Corpus overlord hacked the designs on someone's computer and came up with this convoluted...thing.

I hope to see a quick, favorable resolution that is enjoyable to both players and developers.

Edited by Mach25
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every issue I have with the lich sytem, right here.
it's just one big massive slap in the face and feels incredibly insulting in it's entirety.

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To be honest, I really don't understand what lead DE to design the Lich system in this way. It's been brewing in developement for so long, and the early concepts they showed in the devstreams looked promising. But now that it's out, I think there's no other conclusion than from a game design point of view, this is a failure.

Not that there's nothing good in there, the character models of the Liches look great, as does the animation when they get killed, their voice lines are well written and voice-acted, the requiem mods are beautiful - clearly some competent work went into it.

But then the mechanics of how Liches are created, how you fight them, how they interact with the game world and the player, and what rewards you get from them, all of it is so bland and generic and feels so, I don't know, thoughtless? Careless? Rushed? Just not intelligent? Was there really nobody in DE's design conferences who stood up and said "hey folks, that's bad game design right there, let's not do it this way"? How ow on earth did they end up with this boring, repetitive, unrewarding grindfest?

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DE really needed to let some beta testers play it, that weren't in-house. Everyone that works FOR DE is going to say, "yeah this is great."

For me however. Thus Murmur grind, is just annoying. I'm not sure how much each thrall gives, but it's not enough. Doing 10-15 or MORE missions just to fill a single murmur... that's not fun. These aren't a challenge. I'm not even bothering with my lich, if she shows up, i ignore her and carry on.

I only got the lich, while i was otherwise trying to avoid them, since i thought if i got a lich, i could do my telesto and adaro sleep-equinox runs without everything getting alerted, but nope.. larva still show up and alert everything.

At this point, i'd like to opt out of the lich event altogether. I have over 4100 hours ingame, i like being able to do what i want when i want. But now i'm having this forced down my throat. I can't play the game normally now until i get rid of this lich, and once i do, what's to say i won't accidentally get another one on the next mission.

Murmurs should take no more than 20 thralls to completely fill up. Since once we have all the murmurs, we still have to get the requiem mods and figure out what order they go in. Or get rid of the thrall system entirely and just make it so we do 4-5 missions to unlock a murmur.

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Agree with every single word. Terrible decision to push that as almost mandatory content. That is a reason one should not invest money in Betas and MMOs with questionable design concept.
Just the idea that everyone that finished "The War Within" is ready to get swamped by that "content" and do sortie-alike missions under time & rng pressure is ridiculous and demonstrates complete lack of video game design knowledge.

Edited by DerDzvero
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As if other Warframe's updates weren't peppering you with annoyances and bundles ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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How long is this Lich event going on for? I'm probably just going to log on to do sorties and nightwave and that's it until this event is over. Since i'm starting to get pretty distraught with these dang murmurs. If they want to make it take 50 murmurs, they need to quadruple how many spawn in a mission.
Or make it take like 15-20 murmurs and still increase the number of spawns.
This just isn't fun.

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2 minutes ago, LazyBunnyKiera said:

How long is this Lich event going on for? I'm probably just going to log on to do sorties and nightwave and that's it until this event is over. Since i'm starting to get pretty distraught with these dang murmurs. If they want to make it take 50 murmurs, they need to quadruple how many spawn in a mission.
Or make it take like 15-20 murmurs and still increase the number of spawns.
This just isn't fun.

It's not a timed event. It's going to go on forever. Or until they change things.

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