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MirageKnight

DE, the Lich System is bad and it needs to change.

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I really believe they should just make the entire Lich content an quest you activate from the codex.

 

Its there for when you decide you want to run it.

You can help others deal with their larvlings, thralls, and liches but unless you have activated the quest you will not receive the benefits nor the progression from doing so.

Finally killed your lich and want to try another? Just reactivate the quest again in the codex.

Finally killed your lich and didn't like the content? Don't fret my pet! Just don't reactivate the quest and you won't have to deal with it again until you want to.

 

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On 2019-11-06 at 6:39 PM, acevezwing said:

But instead I got a rage inducing multi-layered RNG slot machine.

Well, y'know, it is DE. That's their specialty. That said, they really have outdone themselves now. Grind (void traces) so that you can grind (kuva siphons) so that you can grind (requiem mods) so that you can grind (murmurs) so that you can grind (lich with the right weapon) so that you can grind (high weapon bonus) so that you can grind some more (the forma to finish it off). 6 layers. Wow.

Now, two of these are optional: getting the full 5 forma per weapon to max it out to 40, and getting a weapon with a sufficiently high damage roll. But, if you're going to skip that, why not just skip the whole thing anyway.

On 2019-11-07 at 2:54 AM, MirageKnight said:

I'm sure a lot of people didn't as well. If I'd known EXACTLY what I was getting myself into, I'd have stayed the hell away from the entire system.

And this is a rather disturbing trend which I've encountered with more and more of Warfarm as the years go by. The best approach I can find to a lot of their changes is to find some way in which I encounter them as little as possible.

Incidentally, this is why the lich system isn't as bad as it could be. I can actually avoid it. Sure, it means writing off a quarter of the starchart (saturn, uranus, sedna, parts of the moon; the kuva fortress as well but I never go there anyway because it's complete S#&$), but I can almost completely avoid ever seeing a lich (barring the very infrequent occurrence of one spawning in a pug match).

It's also why the melee changes were utterly abominable. So many broken systems, so much wrong with it and it was all thrown straight in my face every single time I played the game.

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2 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Well, y'know, it is DE. That's their specialty. That said, they really have outdone themselves now. Grind (void traces) so that you can grind (kuva siphons) so that you can grind (requiem mods) so that you can grind (murmurs) so that you can grind (lich with the right weapon) so that you can grind (high weapon bonus) so that you can grind some more (the forma to finish it off). 6 layers. Wow.

Yup. People like to say that "Warframe is a grindy game" as though that's a justification or an excuse. No, that's a persistent PROBLEM which we learn to deal with or ignore if we want to engage with the game, but the Old Blood is just abusive. Fractal grind with low odds and RNG at every step is just excessive. This genuinely feels like EA's Battlefront 2 fiasco, in that this is a company testing the waters to see just how far they can push bullS#&$ grind before people bite back, except they miscalculated and pushed it about 10 steps too far. The problem with this kind of goof is that you can't put the geenie back in the bottle any more. Once you've pushed people to breaking point and have us seriously considering if we even want to play Warframe any more, you're never getting that doubt back out of our heads. Even if we calm down and engage with the system - like I have - that lingering doubt still remains at the back of my head and I'm going to remember it for a long time to come.

With the Old Blood, I've become convinced that DE aren't in the business of making video games. They're in the business of making time sinks coached in the guise of video games. The ONLY thing saving them from being lumped in with your EA, your Activision-Blizzard, your UbiSoft is they don't sell lootboxes... But they do all of the other things! Stupidly-boring, time-wasting grinds with the option to pay for Time Savers or straight-up pay for the rewards, deliberately S#&$, hollow gameplay consisting of nothing but RNG time sinks... Assassin's Creed and Ghost Recon got lambasted for less!

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5 hours ago, Aesthier said:

I really believe they should just make the entire Lich content an quest you activate from the codex.

 

Its there for when you decide you want to run it.

You can help others deal with their larvlings, thralls, and liches but unless you have activated the quest you will not receive the benefits nor the progression from doing so.

Finally killed your lich and want to try another? Just reactivate the quest again in the codex.

Finally killed your lich and didn't like the content? Don't fret my pet! Just don't reactivate the quest and you won't have to deal with it again until you want to.

This is a fantastic idea - thanks for posting!

With your permission, I'd like to offer this as a suggestion in the thread starter post.

3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Incidentally, this is why the lich system isn't as bad as it could be. I can actually avoid it. Sure, it means writing off a quarter of the starchart (saturn, uranus, sedna, parts of the moon; the kuva fortress as well but I never go there anyway because it's complete S#&$), but I can almost completely avoid ever seeing a lich (barring the very infrequent occurrence of one spawning in a pug match).

That's a good and fair point. The way you "opt in" is way less accidental...but that was only introduced 5 days after players complained. I recall at least one Saryn player complaining about how they wound up accidentally creating a Lich on Hydron while nuking the map and how the Lich wound up being a nightmare to deal with.

3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

It's also why the melee changes were utterly abominable. So many broken systems, so much wrong with it and it was all thrown straight in my face every single time I played the game.

That's another topic entirely, but I agree. That mishandled overhaul is not something can be readily ignored. We're basically stuck with it until such time as DE gets their collective act to together and properly fixes melee.

3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

getting the full 5 forma per weapon to max it out to 40

Someone pointed out that using all 5 Forma actually creates wasted mod space. At least with Warframes, that surplus mod space translates to extra starting energy.

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Once you've pushed people to breaking point and have us seriously considering if we even want to play Warframe any more, you're never getting that doubt back out of our heads. Even if we calm down and engage with the system - like I have - that lingering doubt still remains at the back of my head and I'm going to remember it for a long time to come.

Before U26 dropped, I spent a week reorganizing my dojo to accommodate the Railjack hangar in the future. I was really excited about the whole thing.

Now I'm wondering if that's something I should even consider when it releases.

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1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

The ONLY thing saving them from being lumped in with your EA, your Activision-Blizzard, your UbiSoft is they don't sell lootboxes...

Well, if we set the wayback machine to 2013 and look in the market, they had void key packs for sale.

I, being an idiotic rank 0 nublet, actually bought one.

EDIT:

31 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

That's a good and fair point. The way you "opt in" is way less accidental...but that was only introduced 5 days after players complained. I recall at least one Saryn player complaining about how they wound up accidentally creating a Lich on Hydron while nuking the map and how the Lich wound up being a nightmare to deal with.

Yeah. I know. In fact, I still don't trust it. I'm still using my nuclear option opt out.

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I thought I was angry...

I am especially with the Lich Spawning system forcing you to go solo however, I am more frustrated and sad than mad because they messed up a good thing badly.

 But after reading these comments and seeing the numbers from steam the situation seems very serious, I wonder why they are taking "so much time" to give some things the majority (at least in the forums) of people are asking. 

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24 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Yeah. I know. In fact, I still don't trust it. I'm still using my nuclear option opt out.

As in take off and nuke the site from orbit?

10 minutes ago, ciTiger said:

 But after reading these comments and seeing the numbers from steam the situation seems very serious, I wonder they are taking "so much time" to give some things the majority (at least in the forums) of people are asking. 

One can always hope...

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17 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

As in take off and nuke the site from orbit?

Yup. Leave those areas and never come back. An uninhabitable wasteland.

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3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Yup. People like to say that "Warframe is a grindy game" as though that's a justification or an excuse. No, that's a persistent PROBLEM which we learn to deal with or ignore if we want to engage with the game, but the Old Blood is just abusive. Fractal grind with low odds and RNG at every step is just excessive. This genuinely feels like EA's Battlefront 2 fiasco, in that this is a company testing the waters to see just how far they can push bullS#&$ grind before people bite back, except they miscalculated and pushed it about 10 steps too far. The problem with this kind of goof is that you can't put the geenie back in the bottle any more. Once you've pushed people to breaking point and have us seriously considering if we even want to play Warframe any more, you're never getting that doubt back out of our heads. Even if we calm down and engage with the system - like I have - that lingering doubt still remains at the back of my head and I'm going to remember it for a long time to come.

With the Old Blood, I've become convinced that DE aren't in the business of making video games. They're in the business of making time sinks coached in the guise of video games. The ONLY thing saving them from being lumped in with your EA, your Activision-Blizzard, your UbiSoft is they don't sell lootboxes... But they do all of the other things! Stupidly-boring, time-wasting grinds with the option to pay for Time Savers or straight-up pay for the rewards, deliberately S#&$, hollow gameplay consisting of nothing but RNG time sinks... Assassin's Creed and Ghost Recon got lambasted for less!

This is exactly how I feel, it's made me very nervous around DE - wondering if they're inching their way towards EA/Ubi/AB territory (going to put Rockstar in there too because of what they did with grind in GTA Online and RDR2). And if they go that route, Last Blizzard game I played was WoW WOTLK, EA was... over a decade ago, I was interested in Ghost Recon WIldlands until I seen the micro (macro) "skip" transactions.  Basically, if DE goes that route, I'll be done with Warframe, it will suck - it will hurt, but I will cut it out of my gaming experience. A 'grinding for the sake of grinding' game, has no substance, no content, it's just there to waste your time. Fun is optional. Warframe feels, with The Old Blood update, like it's turning into that, and those complaining about this update, see that the ship is starting to sink. Hopefully DE can plug the holes and fix the problem, or they might double down again and make it sink faster.

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@BlueFan99 had a good suggestion I hadn't really thought about in another thread...

Quote

- Kuva Liches are created by pumping kuva into Grineer Captains, Officers, Researchers, Warriors, Specialists,etc...("Grineer VIPs") that Queens decide are too valuable to die and had proven themselves worthy of their blood.

I really agree with this and it raises an excellent point. Why would the last Queen bestow the gift of the Old Blood on, say, some lowly Ballista that I shot up and then spinal-tapped on some remote outpost anyway?

That being said, perhaps Lich candidates ought to be restricted to Commander and Eximus units.

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3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Well, if we set the wayback machine to 2013 and look in the market, they had void key packs for sale. I, being an idiotic rank 0 nublet, actually bought one.

I've heard stories of Orokin Catalysts/Reactors once being cash shop only, and much noise being made before DE relented and let players earn SOME of them... And even then it's clear as day they STILL want us buying them. It's why they were so rare in alerts and why they cost 75 Nightwave Credits. Being a whale, I bought most of mine, but that's the trick there. I've spent a lot of money on Warframe because I like the game and got a few 75% discounts. Once the game starts annoying me, I start wondering if I really want to spend another 50 Euro on another 75% off Platinum pack. On the one hand, I can use more Platinum the way I've been going through it. On the other hand... Hmm...

I used to take solace in this, though. "DE used to have terrible monetisation, but they improved it in response to player feedback!" That's good, right - a developer listening to their playerbase? Except this keeps happening, over and over again. Content releases with horrible grinds + "time savers," people complain, it gets rolled back... A little bit, kinda-sort, down to something we're willing to tolerate because it's not as bad as it used to be. Surely DE have learned their lesson this time, right? I mean, they're learning through experience after all. Except the next thing we get is even grindier and more aggressively monetised, so we complain and they roll it back a little bit, progressively pushing the game into more and more grind. At which point do I get to be cynical, and suspect they're trying to normalise grind and aggressive monetisation? At what point do I suspect them of deliberately pushing the envelope so they can then take it back and make us feel like we're being heard, when the grind still pushed forward?

EA did the same thing with Battlefront 2. They released a game which was borderline unplayable without the loot boxes, people complained, so they reduced the cost. People still complained, so they removed the lootboxes and left behind a horribly grindy game. We "won," yes, but in the process we managed to justify all the other microtransactions we'd complained about because "Well, at least it's not lootboxes." Remember when people complained about Day 1 DLC or horse armour? That's how normalisation works. You push your luck as far as you can go until you get called out, then take half steps back until the complaints quiet down, and you're still left a few steps farther along towards aggressive monetisation.

I used to think DE are just experimenting with their design and business model. With the Old Blood, with their talk of "sustainable rewards, with Nightwave... Yeah, I'm increasingly starting to suspect they've already perfected a business model and just need to ease us into it. Call me paranoid, call me cynical, but this is what happens when I no longer trust the intent of a developer. You can fix your mistakes, but you can't take that doubt back out of my head any more.

 

2 hours ago, Tinklzs said:

I was interested in Ghost Recon WIldlands until I seen the micro (macro) "skip" transactions.

Yeah, that's kind of where I was going. When UbiSoft released their "time savers" for Assassin's Creed and then later on for Ghost Recon: Breakpoint (oh, the irony), people lambasted them for it. "You deliberately made progress slow so you could sell me boosters!" On the one hand, I was right there with others reminding people that this has been in MMOs for years now. On the other hand, I at the back of my mind was a disturbing thought - that's exactly what DE are doing. Hell, they're quadruple-dipping, in fact. You have boosters for XP, money, drops, drops again and now as of late drops of a different kind. And they're not cheap, either. Breakpoint got lambasted for selling guns and resources and essentially letting people skip the entire progression system. DE sold Atlas Prime and all his weapons for $80 the moment he came out, but OK. That's a prime. Then Grendel came out, and HIS unlock method was so seemingly deliberately obtuse that to me the intended way of obtaining him was "just pay money." It's what a friend of mine did, but I didn't. I might be a whale, but I draw the line at paying to skip gameplay designed to be bad specifically so I'll pay to skip it.

We're not paying for our Season Pass yet, fair point, but we have the entire Season Pass system. We have an aggressively limited inventory with paid extra slots, we have aggressively long crafting timers with the option of paying to speed them up. Anyone remember Elder Scrolls: Blades being lambasted for having chests that took 4 hours to open? Anyone remember Dungeon Keeper Mobile being lambasted for having 24-hour dig jobs you were expected to pay to skip? Yet we're OK with needing FOUR #*!%ING DAYS to build a Warframe once I have the last blueprint needed... Or I could pay through the nose to rush it. Want a Vasca Kavat? Cool, you need to go to Cetus during the exceedingly strict night cycle, get your cat infected, draw its genetic sample with an item which takes a day to build and an hour to use, then do that again because you need two of them. Oh, and did I mention you need 10 Kavat Genetic Samples which only sometimes drop from a rare spawn on the Orokin Derelict, which itself takes keys to visit? But eh - why not just buy it. It's cheap!

I'm not trying to say that Warframe is bad or that DE are evil. I'm trying to wrap my head around how Warframe managed to retain a reputation for DA BEST F2P EVAR! when it does quite literally all the things all the other AAA games are getting publicly humiliated for. No, Warframe doesn't have loot boxes, but that's a low bar to clear, especially now that AAA publishers are moving away from loot boxes themselves. The best argument people can give me is that you can trade for Platinum so you never have to spend a dime, which is entirely missing the point. P2W doesn't paywall content - not if the developers are being smart. The whole point of F2P was to remove the $60 paywall from traditional MMOs back in the day, so that everyone could be exposed to the grind, the time sinks and the cash shop. The point of F2P is to make the game addictive enough that it becomes a habit but simultaneously irritating enough that players will want to pay to skip parts of it. Being able to trade for Plat isn't the point, because the grind you go through to do that is the disincentive that convinces people like me to spend money.

Far as I can tell, Warframe isn't this amazing land of legendary F2P. It's yet another cavalcade of microtransactions from yet another major publisher all too willing to sacrifice compelling gameplay on the alter of Skinner boxes, grind and appointment mechanics. Nightwave first put that doubt it my head, but The Old Blood finally helped me see it... And I can't unsee it any more. Warframe's still as fun as it used to be if I ignore the new content - and I have, for the most part. But this has fundamentally changed the context in which I see it in ways that I don't think are reversible. From the looks of things, I wasn't the only one who walked away with this impression.

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On 2019-11-02 at 11:29 PM, MirageKnight said:

-Now Let's talk about enemy levels. Level 90-100 (and higher) enemies. This is even on Lua. Which has Sentients. What the hell were you thinking? Sentients are pretty tanky at level 40-50 as-is and this is just worse. The Operator is damn near useless except for resetting resistances. Also, level 100 Demolyst units in Disruption are extremely difficult - if not impossible - to kill quickly enough without having to resort to cheese. Difficulty needs to be 60 maximum. No higher. You want lots of people to enjoy and complete this? Lower the damn enemy levels a bit to something more reasonable. Not all of us like or can deal with Sortie-level content.

Personally I actually enjoyed the high level missions. They were pointless, since you don't get extra rewards, but fun. 

And I have to agree with you on how bad and incomplete the whole system is. You did a great job at explaining it. 

I truly hope they'll fix all these issues so i can reinstall the game

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24 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I've heard stories of Orokin Catalysts/Reactors once being cash shop only, and much noise being made before DE relented and let players earn SOME of them... And even then it's clear as day they STILL want us buying them. It's why they were so rare in alerts and why they cost 75 Nightwave Credits

Yeah, that's definitely true. I remember that advice to starting players was to spend your plat on slots and potatoes, because you couldn't get either of them anywhere else. It's actually gotten a lot better since then. Both on the "positive" side in that you now get potato alerts every time there's a devstream and that they're available from nightwave (which I do prefer to alerts, since you're not a slave to the RNG as to whether you can actually get it or not); though I haven't seen a potato invasion in a very long time.

However, it's also gotten better on the "negative" side in that a lot of released gear is simply crap and so I don't feel any need to potato it. Take Grendel: his abilities didn't seem to do anything special except drink all of my energy. He's got almost no shields and didn't seem to have any way of regaining health. I'm not wasting a potato on that... and this is after I've already got 30 made and another 50 blueprints sitting around.

Weapons - some of them can be pretty nice on release (eg. exergis is a lovely gun), but items tend to have a habit of being nerfed and so I'm always hesitant about potatoing weapons as well. Especially given that once you've found a "core" set of guns which cover all your functions (eg. sniper, shotgun, AoE weapon, bullet hose, proc monster; some of these fit together in one package), there's no real reason to potato something new if you've already got something which fits that role.

Even if a frame is good, it's almost certain that there will be a prime at some point and so there's no reason to bother with the base frame at all. Maybe this detachment is a result of me getting incredibly bitter and cynical over the years, but it does have its good points.

I suppose that's the key to doing "well" in this game - to stop caring about it.

32 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

At which point do I get to be cynical, and suspect they're trying to normalise grind and aggressive monetisation? At what point do I suspect them of deliberately pushing the envelope so they can then take it back and make us feel like we're being heard, when the grind still pushed forward?

Politicians the world over do that when they push for more and more oppressive laws; plagues like Facebook and their ilk gobble up your data, go "oops", say "we're 'sorry' and it 'won't happen again'" (yes, they're actually saying it with the quotation marks) and then go right back to it; giant companies all over the place raise fees and add additional items to your bill and then say "oops" (again, they're saying it while making air quotes) while trying very very hard to get in the way of you challenging this; and much, much more.

It's not even being cynical, this appears to be a common trait of our species. There's no reason why they wouldn't be doing it.

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44 minutes ago, Khantico said:

Personally I actually enjoyed the high level missions. They were pointless, since you don't get extra rewards, but fun. 

Totally fair. The reason I advocate lowering the enemy levels a bit is to make the system more inclusive to players. I just feel that level 90-100 is a bit out of reach for a fair number of people. I can certainly do it, but it's a bit of a pain. For people that just finished up War Within, this might be a really painful experience.

48 minutes ago, Khantico said:

You did a great job at explaining it. 

Thanks - I tried my best 🙂

It's one thing to go onto a forum and say "Yo - x feature sucks hard" and proceed to insult the devs, but it's another to say "Hey, x feature sucks hard, this is why I think it sucks, and here's a suggestion for making it suck less." 

58 minutes ago, Khantico said:

so i can reinstall the game

That bad huh?

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

-snipped for brevity-

This was a really excellent read and more people should see this. Frankly, it deserves to be its own topic in GD.

35 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Yeah, that's definitely true. I remember that advice to starting players was to spend your plat on slots and potatoes, because you couldn't get either of them anywhere else. It's actually gotten a lot better since then. Both on the "positive" side in that you now get potato alerts every time there's a devstream and that they're available from nightwave (which I do prefer to alerts, since you're not a slave to the RNG as to whether you can actually get it or not); though I haven't seen a potato invasion in a very long time.

However, it's also gotten better on the "negative" side in that a lot of released gear is simply crap and so I don't feel any need to potato it. Take Grendel: his abilities didn't seem to do anything special except drink all of my energy. He's got almost no shields and didn't seem to have any way of regaining health. I'm not wasting a potato on that... and this is after I've already got 30 made and another 50 blueprints sitting around.

I see gear in warframe as being potential investments. If a Frame or weapon "feels" good or makes my time in warframe more enjoyable / more productive, I'm going to give it some love. As of late though, it's been harder to tell if a new weapon or Frame is something I want to really invest in or keep around for a while without throwing a potato into it...and free potato BP's seem to be getting a bit more scarce.

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For me, biggest problem is the freaking 60 thrall requirement for guaranteed spawn of liches, they should give us scaling thrall counting or assassination node for them.

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6 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

This is a fantastic idea - thanks for posting!

With your permission, I'd like to offer this as a suggestion in the thread starter post.

@MirageKnight Feel free! Your post is much far more eloquent than anything I could ever write so it would definitely get more focus coming from you.

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En 3/11/2019 a las 10:41, Whiskered dijo:

For quite some time I don't have much expectations when waiting for a new games or updates, for any game really.

However this time I was somehow hyped and had high expectations about thees Kuva Litches... and sadly I have to say that this was major disappointment.

I understand it that entire nemesis system is one of core elements in Shadow of Mordor and we won't get that level of complexity in it. Dosen't mean that current we have could get better.  I want to throw in some feedback and my opinion about it as this entire hunt is rather unfun thing  to do in game.

So the way Litch is created I am fine more or less with. Kill Kuva infused Grinner and they will become marked for greatness, but why is that limited to nodes that are lvl 20 and above? That sounds rather arbitrary and unnecessary. But still this is minor issue only.

Kuva Litch Progress
Major issue is how after that one kill they are suddenly badass controlling whole planet...and are able to tax us somehow.. I don't mind that our loots get stolen. No that is even cool idea good incentive, however such things should occur only on nodes under control of Litch but not whole planet. They way how quickly influence spreads is off. It was advertised that litch would be building up their influence. I was expecting that Litch at the begging without much skills and fairly unmodified weapons and not very interesting look. I was expecting them to behave more like assassins, crashing to our party, be a nuisance. That immortal Grinner could throw them self on his enemy tenno and keeps coming back knowing them better and better and with that building their reputation. If they would manage to beat player in fair fight then they would level up even more and steal their cosmetic items. Many consider "fashion frame" as end game. Having Litch taunt us while wearing our sydana and decorative armours would add insult to injury and make it much more personal.  Also with them leveling  their looks and amount/type of followers changing. They would be using better weapons with time, eventually getting personal moded weapons, based on their preference and history with player. Similarly their skills, at begging having no skills at all and gaining more and more as they got killed by different warframes. Why limit their skills to four only? It could go up more up to six or eight or even be dependent on litch itself.

Eventually litch would stop hunting players just their kill teams, litch them self would hide and players should run missions to gather Intel to see where the litch is now. Like run spy missions on controlled nodes and you will get additional reward of current litch location.


Dealing with them for good
I'd say it is rather bullS#&$ that those special mods are locked behind relics that occur in only two mission types. While majority of players are addicted to rivens and kuva farming..there could be more ways to get those relics. Like from litch encounters in random missions and even their followers should have chance of dropping  requiem mods. Entire  new relic dedicated to killing litch is neither fun nor interesting, moreover feels heavily detached from rest of the game.  I would much rather have some resource that drops from thralls and this resource would be needed to craft those mods/runes. Finally facing of the litch right now it is game of guessing and dying. Either playing guess the order  wrong and you die or player guess right and they die/become friends. Also guessing wrong making them stronger doesn't make much sense. Shouldn't it make them weaker? Slow their influence spread, cripple them. Remove their skills or even prevent from spawning for few missions.

Rewards
........Are weak, unreliable "friend" or their weapon, with element  based on  the table below.
unknown.png

It is not very interesting reward as sole reward and also this table doesn't make much sense.
If there is physical aspect present, then why it's only impact? If there is impact why not Slash/Puncture too. Garuda/ Valkyr/ Gara/Ash and Khora would be perfect for that.  Why Atlas and Oberon are Toxin?
Then also why there is no Blast/Corrosive/Viral ?

Couldn't their weapon develop as they would do? Being a keepsake after the litch.
Got killed with sneaky frame like ash/loki/ivara ? Weapon gets silnced.
Got killed by tanky frame? weapon gets bonus puncture.
Got killed by fast frame? Magazine capacity or fire rate or reload speed goes up.

And so on and on.

There are also new kuva ltich Armour bundles....that are obtainable through market only as a bundle. For a while I thought those would be drops from litches too but nope. We have ephermas but could be something more unique than gas cloud around.

I hope and wish this system would grow and develop into something greater and actually fun to play.


Now I am worried about the railjack update.

 

+1000 to all

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On 2019-11-02 at 11:29 PM, MirageKnight said:

I’d also like to add that for all you people that pressure other players into trying to kill their Lich even when they’re not ready to do so - just so your Lich will show up - you are impatient, selfish people and should be ashamed of yourselves.

Or you could say that those players are selfish as they know that they block all the other liches in their missions.

Turn and twist it as you like, but the root problem is on DE´s side. There is a better way to handle this, and we don´t have to fight each other for it. DE has to bring a solution to it.

EDIT: Otherwise, great summry and post.

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22 hours ago, IamLoco said:

There is a better way to handle this, and we don´t have to fight each other for it. DE has to bring a solution to it.

Agreed. On that note, I'd like to bring a little story into this discussion.

I decided once and for all today to finally get rid of my Lich. I was tired of looking at all that red and said screw it.

A couple of missions I did today, my Lich didn't show but I stuck around to help out players with theirs regardless. Did I get any ingame benefits from sticking around? No, but I don't care about that. The mission where I ultimately beat it and turned it into my personal bdsm queen an ally, there were 4 players at the start of the mission. One player was just getting Murmurs but the rest of us were there to try and beat our Liches. We took care of one player's Lich and then that player bailed out right after someone else's Lich showed up. We remaining three took care of that one and then mine showed up. 

I had to be picked up off the ground twice because I finally lost all my Revives. One hit kill weapons / abilities - used against you - are not fun at all. Fortunately, we finally beat mine down and I had the right codes and in the right order. Mission successful and map finally cleared of red.

One of those players that stuck aound didn't gain any ingame benefit for themselves by sticking around. They already got what they wanted out of their own Lich, so why bother? Yet despite having to fight 2 extremely tough Lichs, with only 3 people, we helped keep each other alive as best we could.

So you know what? Thanks you two. You made my mission a lot easier, not to mention successful. And I was glad to help you two out as well.

As an ally, my Lich will only show up when I'm doing badly / at very low health...and then only for a couple of minutes whereupon it promptly buggers off. KInda like some players.

With that being said, I'm never going through that Lich thing again. Not until the system is heavily revised so that it's less grindy and punishing to play and offers better incentives. 

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Otherwise, great summry and post.

Thanks 🙂

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23 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

That bad huh?

Let's face it.

We have almost 0.3% chances to kill our lich the first time we encounter it.

And to get that 0.3% chance we have a 50% chance to get a relic from a kuva syphon (100% from flood but it's a time limited mission) and we need 8 mods to get from 4 relics. The relics drop chances are 25% when you get one. IF we use void traces (that must be farmed in void fissures) on those relics we get a 20% chance to get a mod. You can enhance the chance to kill your lich by doing the same old content on the same old missions by killing the same enemies but with a blue aura around them. And they are immune to status now because screw status. Repeat until you find out what mods you need and their order and you can safely kill your lich.

Everything else above is certain death.

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With regard to this whole duplicate Kuva weapon fiasco, I'd like to promote a change....one that probably should have been implemented on release.

When generating a Lich nemesis for a player, the game should check for existing Kuva weapons in the player's inventory and only equip the Lich with a random weapon that the player does NOT have. This would prevent instances of players winding up with duplicate Kuva weapons. If the player has all the Kuva weapons that are available, the game is allowed to generate a random Kuva weapon for the Lich nemesis.

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21 minutes ago, Khantico said:

Let's face it.

We have almost 0.3% chances to kill our lich the first time we encounter it.

And to get that 0.3% chance we have a 50% chance to get a relic from a kuva syphon (100% from flood but it's a time limited mission) and we need 8 mods to get from 4 relics. The relics drop chances are 25% when you get one. IF we use void traces (that must be farmed in void fissures) on those relics we get a 20% chance to get a mod. You can enhance the chance to kill your lich by doing the same old content on the same old missions by killing the same enemies but with a blue aura around them. And they are immune to status now because screw status. Repeat until you find out what mods you need and their order and you can safely kill your lich.

Everything else above is certain death.

Furthermore, your chances of getting the kuva mods you need is much better in a party, in solo - far far worse. Which adds much more time in downing your lich .

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54 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

With regard to this whole duplicate Kuva weapon fiasco, I'd like to promote a change....one that should have been implemented on release.

When generating a Lich nemesis for a player, the game should check for existing Kuva weapons in the player's inventory and only equip the Lich with a random weapon that the player does NOT have. This would prevent instances of players winding up with duplicate Kuva weapons. If the player has all the Kuva weapons that are available, the game is allowed to generate a random Kuva weapon for the Lich nemesis.

That might sound good on paper, but it does have a flaw, it would mean a player would need to farm (and have the slots for) every single Kuva weapon in order to have a chance at grinding out the one they want. It also means that for players looking for a specific weapon the grind wouldn't actually change and the duplicate issue would still be present after the initial base weapons are acquired.

I think they need some way for the player to influence the weapon chosen, even if it had to be "Kill the Larva with the weapon you want, otherwise it will be random" but even that idea sounds hard to code and design to me.

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52 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I think they need some way for the player to influence the weapon chosen, even if it had to be "Kill the Larva with the weapon you want, otherwise it will be random" but even that idea sounds hard to code and design to me.

I did offer a suggestion previously where the Larva spawns with a regular version of the weapon that the Lich Nemesis would get - or something close to it.

Say the Larva spawns with a regular Quartakk and the player comes across said Larva. The player can decide, right then and there, whether to generate a Lich from that Larva or not, knowing that their Lich Nemesis would have a Kuva Quartakk.

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2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

With regard to this whole duplicate Kuva weapon fiasco, I'd like to promote a change....one that should have been implemented on release.

When generating a Lich nemesis for a player, the game should check for existing Kuva weapons in the player's inventory and only equip the Lich with a random weapon that the player does NOT have. This would prevent instances of players winding up with duplicate Kuva weapons. If the player has all the Kuva weapons that are available, the game is allowed to generate a random Kuva weapon for the Lich nemesis.

This would work if they would take it one step further, and allow it to generate a random Kuva weapon with an elemental modifier HIGHER than the ones you already have. A one step solution to duplicate weapon liches potentially being a total time sink. No more "Oh, another <30% damage kuva karak, yay..."

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