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MirageKnight

DE, the Lich System is bad and it needs to change.

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26 minutes ago, Aldain said:

DE just needs to relent and make killing the Lich not a punishment, this isn't on the players to fix, despite some in that thread trying to enforce mob rule and justice by numbers, it is all on DE to remove the point of contention.

Absolutely.

However, I still say it's on players to ultimately not be jerks to each other and failing that, for DE to punish players for refusing to play by the rules of decorum and civility.

12 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

it works in the sense you dont get a dupe of the weapon the previous lich spawned with but you still get dupes. i spawn another lich after the update, and it spawned with kuva tonkor (a weapon i already have.

Yeah, I figured that would happen...thanks for the heads up!

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I've been thinking about this a bit...and personally I have a couple of issues with this Lich trading system.

Right now, it's akin to giving your trained, pet dog to a neighbor, only it turns into a feral nightmare with rabies the second it's in their backyard.

Except it's not a dog. It's a person.

So basically you're exchanging the ownership of a sentient being (or beings) for money. DE's put a slave trade system in the game, in which the slave immediately goes rogue on transfer and will either be hunted down and killed for an item they have or turned into an "ally" again.

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Giving this thread a needed bump because things are getting out of hand ingame and on the forums due to DE's design choices and current silence on the matter.

Naturally, I'm referring to a proverbial war between players that feel they're being bullied into attacking their Lich when they're not ready to do so, and players that feel that those that don't attack their LIch are nothing but lazy griefers.

You know why some players don't want to attack their Lich? It's because of your extremely questionable and nonsensical decision to inflict punishment on us players for not getting the right mod sequenc...right after we've beaten our Lich into submission. You one-hit kill us and then level up the LIch and spread its influence further. Reasonable people don't want to die to arbitrary bullS#&$ that results in a more powerful enemy because it doesn't make sense and it's unfair.

I've said it numerous times and I'll say it again: This punishing feature needs to be pulled. Players should not die when they've got the wrong code sequence nor should the LIch level up.

Right now, selfish, entitled, impatient players are attacking and bullying people that are simply trying to avoid an unreasonable outcome for the time being and just want to gather murmurs. Your design decisions are responsible for generating a wave of threads that are demanding that players that don't kill their Lichs be punished for griefing.

Is this what you want from your player base? Divisiveness and animosity? Because that's exactly what you're getting right now.

Staying silent on the matter and ignoring us is not going to fix things DE!

FIX THIS OR AT LEAST SAY SOMETHING!

 

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3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

~snip~

 

im indifferent on the punishment. i dont care about 1 revive, but also i wouldnt care if DE removed the punishment altogether. in shadows of war the orcs level up regardless of what you do and i think that should be maintained here.

people who arent ready for high lvl play should not take part in the lich system which is designed to be high lvl play. or DE can just make each converted node flood lvl and just remove lich leveling up.

people should not be badgering others. they should ask politely: are you going to fight your lich? if yes, they help. if no, id leave. but a solution is still needed.

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3 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

im indifferent on the punishment. i dont care about 1 revive, but also i wouldnt care if DE removed the punishment altogether. in shadows of war the orcs level up regardless of what you do and i think that should be maintained here.

people who arent ready for high lvl play should not take part in high lvl play mechanics. or DE can just make each converted node flood lvl and just remove lich leveling up.

people should not be badgering others. they should ask politely: are you going to fight your lich? if yes, they help. if no, id leave. but a solution is still needed.

This is how I'd do it personally.

Kuva liches are unlocked after War Within (kuva fortress access), it would be a quest that would activate, showing the level range (50-120) and the lich would only spawn on kuva floods. Meaning, if you can't handle level 80-100s yet, you wouldn't be doing floods anyways, so no risk of encountering it there.   Here's the twist though, if the quest isnt' active then the larvae won't spawn on floods. Meaning, if you like doing floods (or want to farm the relics) in peace, with no fear of accidentally KO'ing a larvae, then you just deactivate the quest, and voila. 

 

Very simple, straightforward - and everyone wins. Unlike the current system.

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7 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

This is how I'd do it personally.

Kuva liches are unlocked after War Within (kuva fortress access), it would be a quest that would activate, showing the level range (50-120) and the lich would only spawn on kuva floods. Meaning, if you can't handle level 80-100s yet, you wouldn't be doing floods anyways, so no risk of encountering it there.   Here's the twist though, if the quest isnt' active then the larvae won't spawn on floods. Meaning, if you like doing floods (or want to farm the relics) in peace, with no fear of accidentally KO'ing a larvae, then you just deactivate the quest, and voila. 

 

Very simple, straightforward - and everyone wins. Unlike the current system.

this is a very good idea that can be expanded on. one of the issues is lich queue. here any number of lich can spawn with no queue and instead of a siphon you get boosted drop chance of requiems from thralls and killing or being killed by a lich drops the same amount of kuva a flood siphon would.

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Well it seems like as of 26.0.8, DE is doing nothing - so far - to address any of the major concerns regarding the Lich nemesis system. 

  • Some players still have little if any incentive to engage their Liches in pub games because, reasonably I feel, they don't want to be punished for their troubles when they're not ready. This is causing severe friction with players that are impatient to get to their own LIches - players that are now harassing and bullying players that refuse to deal with their Lich.
  • Weapon dupes are still a thing and wasting people's time. DE never really fixed this - it's every other Lich that you'll probably get a dupe.
  • Lich allies are still unreliable and largely inconsequential in terms of what they contribute to gameplay.
  • The grind and rng is still tiresome and frustrating.

*sigh*

DE better have something good to say on Friday's dev stream.

Me, I have no incentive to engage in the Lich Nemisis system ever again until these things are addressed in a reasonable manner.

 

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There needs to be a option to completely opt out of this in the options menu which means those that don't want to deal with this hassle ever.

When a lich option is set to off then the player can neither deal damage nor take damage if the player is on a team with players whom are marked by the lich.

Players marked by a lich then their name should glow red so others can leave or an option to not get put into a match with players marked by lich. 

Edited for spelling errors

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Just dropping by to give more support to the ideas in the thread.

DE just needs to do something to put an end to this blood feud between players.

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)Aneres_Omega said:

There needs to be a option to completely opt out of this in the options menu which means those that don't want to deal with this hassle ever.

When a lich option is set to off then the player can neither deal damage nor take damage if the player is on a team with players whom are marked by the lich.

Players marked by a lich then their name should glow red so others can leave or an option to not get put into a match with players marked by lich. 

Edited for spelling errors

That is addressing a symptom though, there are still major underlying issues that would still exist - like the major grind behind murmurs etc. - that need to be fixed.

13 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Just dropping by to give more support to the ideas in the thread.

DE just needs to do something to put an end to this blood feud between players.

Well, allowing players to help each other makes sense. I mean, we have the ability to trade them, so why can't we help each other kill them too and reap benefits? Seems DE is all over the place with their messed up 'logic', because it doesn't make sense.  They're supposed to be our nemesis, yet we can trade them and never hear from them again. So why can't players in a squad benefit, like they did before the 'fix', since it seems to follow that logic anyways.  Not to mention the horrible grind for solo players, I can't even get the requiem mods due to relic rng.

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1 minute ago, Tinklzs said:

So why can't players in a squad benefit, like they did before the 'fix', since it seems to follow that logic anyways. 

Perhaps DE thinks that a Nemesis means that it should only apply to the player it is hunting.

Granted that may sound good on paper, but in a multiplayer game it is pretty counter-intuitive

As long as they at least solve the issues of the "Stabber vs Runner" wars (which imo is the instant death and automatic level-up). I think the community might be more receptive to it if there is no perceived punishment for taking part in it (Resource theft notwithstanding).

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22 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Just dropping by to give more support to the ideas in the thread.

DE just needs to do something to put an end to this blood feud between players.

That would mean choosing a side, and that's something I've never seen DE do.

The Patch feedback thread itself is full of good suggestions to sort out the problems in this patch (as is this thread reading through it) but not a single member of DE staff has even commented on the thread. Not one. 

I don't know what I'm expecting from the Dev stream this Friday, but it's not much to be honest.

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47 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

That would mean choosing a side, and that's something I've never seen DE do.

The Patch feedback thread itself is full of good suggestions to sort out the problems in this patch (as is this thread reading through it) but not a single member of DE staff has even commented on the thread. Not one. 

I don't know what I'm expecting from the Dev stream this Friday, but it's not much to be honest.

Pretty much how I feel about it, I doubt they will address that the building is on fire and riots in the streets. They'll just be their normal blissful ignorant selves, excited to announce that Empyrean is coming along fine and will be around probably for Christmas. 

While the rest of us burn behind them, especially those stuck in 100% solo limbo, meaning no group relics. Gee what fun.

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9 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

That would mean choosing a side, and that's something I've never seen DE do.

The Patch feedback thread itself is full of good suggestions to sort out the problems in this patch (as is this thread reading through it) but not a single member of DE staff has even commented on the thread. Not one. 

I don't know what I'm expecting from the Dev stream this Friday, but it's not much to be honest.

Incidentally, this is exactly like what happened with the melee changes. Plenty of feedback, plenty of suggestions, all of it completely ignored.

There's no real point in discussing things here, history has proven that DE don't actually read any of it.

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1 hour ago, DoomFruit said:

Incidentally, this is exactly like what happened with the melee changes. Plenty of feedback, plenty of suggestions, all of it completely ignored.

There's no real point in discussing things here, history has proven that DE don't actually read any of it.

Depends on the topic I think.

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3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Incidentally, this is exactly like what happened with the melee changes. Plenty of feedback, plenty of suggestions, all of it completely ignored.

There's no real point in discussing things here, history has proven that DE don't actually read any of it.

I've seen replies from certain DE staff members in other threads that say "Wait until the Dev Stream on Friday" and then circle around the whole thing picking up on every single non Old Blood related thing that the original poster said which was basically about community spirit and how DE's silence is damaging it.

Why we need to wait until the stream I don't know, unless they're worried about negative reactions during the stream itself. It's normal practice for bad news to be released on the Friday, that way all the unhappy people on the forums will have calmed down by the Monday.

What DE refused to acknowledge is that 3 weeks after the update players are still unhappy, and still waiting for them to comment on the issues and suggestions. 

I know one thing, personally, I'm not expecting much, nothing that the player base has suggested anyway, I mean, we're only the people who pay the Developers wages every month through our in game purchases.

You would think considering this they would want to be a little more open with us.

I'm not expecting Empyrion, Old War or Duviri to ship this year given the fact that it's taken 2 years to give us this.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Aneres_Omega said:

Depends on the topic I think.

Sadly I agree.

They'll answer very select questions about new / existing content and do the obligatory "generate hype for upcoming things" on the upcoming devstream...and maybe pay some current hot topics some lip service, although I suspect there will either avoid discussing Melee pt2 and Lich system issues or simply hand-wave them like what they did with Hema and Sibear.

I'm really frustrated and disappointed with the direction that Warframe seems to be heading in.

During WW2, someone once said "Victorious is the army of 'good enough'" to justify the somewhat cheap and expendable nature of Soviet weapons and tanks. At this point, I wouldn't even say that what DE is releasing at present is even "good enough" to win the battle of player respect.

4 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

I know one thing, personally, I'm not expecting much, nothing that the player base has suggested anyway, I mean, we're only the people who pay the Developers wages every month through our in game purchases.

You would think considering this they would want to be a little more open with us.

Yeah, you'd think. I say hit them where it hurts. Right in the finances.

It doesn't matter if they earned our money in the past. The question that should be asked is have they earned it NOW?

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On today's Devstream, Rebecca mentioned an upcoming "flee" mechanic / behavior for Lich nemesis enemies and the idea of shared Kuva rewards for all players for stabbing rank 1-4 LIchs.

Flee mechanic: It was mentioned that they'll retreat without leveling on 3 "kills" - i.e. downing a Lich nemesis 3 times without a Parazon. However, no mention - that I could see - of what happens if you fail a Parazon stab. 

I suspect that we're still stuck with "click x to win or arbitrarily die and level up your Lich".

Kuva rewards: Yeah, that's nice if you want / need Kuva but rather pointless if you don't.

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Requiems are still staying in and we still can't discard the Lich we don't want. And shared murmurs still aren't a thing. Moreover, murmur grind still isn't reduced.

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1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

On today's Devstream, Rebecca mentioned an upcoming "flee" mechanic / behavior for Lich nemesis enemies and the idea of shared Kuva rewards for all players for stabbing rank 1-4 LIchs.

Flee mechanic: It was mentioned that they'll retreat without leveling on 3 "kills" - i.e. downing a Lich nemesis 3 times without a Parazon. However, no mention - that I could see - of what happens if you fail a Parazon stab. 

I suspect that we're still stuck with "click x to win or arbitrarily die and level up your Lich".

Kuva rewards: Yeah, that's nice if you want / need Kuva but rather pointless if you don't.

cynically I think the only reason this is added is to discourage thrall farming when the lich spawns. like back when the oxium farm was nerfed by adding a timer to thw capture target

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On 2019-11-15 at 6:44 PM, MirageKnight said:

I've been thinking about this a bit...and personally I have a couple of issues with this Lich trading system.

Right now, it's akin to giving your trained, pet dog to a neighbor, only it turns into a feral nightmare with rabies the second it's in their backyard.

Except it's not a dog. It's a person.

So basically you're exchanging the ownership of a sentient being (or beings) for money. DE's put a slave trade system in the game, in which the slave immediately goes rogue on transfer and will either be hunted down and killed for an item they have or turned into an "ally" again.

I also agree with this and the 1st post: the kuva lich is thematically questionable. They said they are unkillable, but in gameplay never demonstrate that besides going from larva to lich. For the entire cycle, it is either it one shoting you or you killing it with a stab. 

DE says this is inspired by shadow of mordor, but shadow of mordor works because it is always possible to kill your nemesis provided you are on point with your gameplay, or you could just run away and try later. You are never punished based on a randomness in game mechanics (order/name of mods). While I don't mind losing 1 revive to the lich (since I play solo mostly), most players are conditioned to dislike failure, especially through no fault of ther own.

and yes lich trading makes no sense.  It is slave trading. What is wrong with just trading the weapon after you claim it from foundry? It is not like we don't already have weapons that are tradable as long as it is unranked and un potatoed. In terms of gameplay, you are still wasting hours to get rid of a lich (read: weapon) you don't care about. We NEED a way to cycle through lichs that gives us nothing (and no one would want to trade for) . Personal experience: 29% heat seer with no ephemera, honestly what is even the point?

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So basically Reb's comments and the "Flee" change are only to satisfy the people who've complained about the group interaction with Lich'/s 

Those complaining about Lich's feeling rewarding or not?

  • Forcing us to commit suicide in an RNG coin toss just to learn the proper order of Requiems does NOT instill annoyance towards my Lich in making me want to bring it down.
  • Does NOT make me feel like I've "overcome some hardship and emerged victorious". It just doesn't sit right with me.
  • Doesn't fit the theme of an actual "Lich". 
  • The same reason why I don't see myself ever attempting my Lich until I've learned all 3 Requiems. Which as you've seen, annoys some players by blocking their LIch from spawning. 
  • This will still halt Lich progress cause quite frankly, No rank up? I'm not gonna even bothering taking my Lich down 3 times. Just run past and finish my mission.
  • A simple change to the fight could make it feel more triumphant. Two words, "Boss Music." Client side soundtrack of battle music and some victorious fanfare when defeating/converting your Lich. 

Those wanting Lich's to be more Unique?

  • Make them as ACTUAL LICH'S. Give us ways to defeat them even if we don't have all 3 requiems. Going to my doom isn't fun.
  • Having them Flee only works if people stop to fight 'em. (Some people are gonna feel like it's their responsibility to do so and criticize those who pass/ignore it.
  • Striking them down should be similar to Vor, They fall and vanish/escape/temporarily die only to come back stronger and more pissed off. 
    • Make them harder if need-be. Beating them and driving them back should have repercussions since avoiding them is so insanely easy.
  • Simply stealing our rewards isn't that much of a hindrance. Specially when we can just get it all back by beating them. Finding a balance between them hindering the party's progress and yours individually is important. While still maintaining a fun spin on things of course.
  • Using Melee I haven't had much problem taking down anyone's Lich. Might be controversial but I'd say buff  them. Make them more dangerous....then make their traits play into bonuses against them.
    • Scared of Children - Operators do 50% more damage or lowers their defense
    • Allergic to Nature - Lure them into the wilds, anywhere outdoors for an edge in combat.
    • Likes the Dark - Like with Mirage. In darkness they're full power - In light it's weakened.
    • Fear of Kubrows/Kavats/Animals - Your pet will do xx% more damage
    • Hatred of infested//corpus - Fighting them on these nodes will have them fighting the enemy too
    • Poor sense of balance - Heavy strikes will knock them on their ass
    • Female lich's should also be even more-so dangerous/powerful/serious. 
    • Etc.

In addition to making our Lich's more unique make them FASTER. Make them pursue us. It's too easy to sprint, jump-kick them in the face and just continue on with your mission if you're choosing not to fight them. I want Batman vs. Bane. I want to flee and have someone/something keep up with me if I'm not careful. I want that dreaded encounter with something powerful. Have them switch my waypoints and lead me into a dead end, only to lock the area down and come at me. 

MAKE. THEM. DIFFICULT.

But most importantly....give me a fighting chance.

Give me the opportunity to progress. Don't just fling me into a coin toss and know that I'm going to die if I'm not extremely lucky and blessed by RNGesus. I want a rival, but I want to have FUN  fighting them. Specially the male Grineer with their doofy personalities. And when I do get when of those deadly serious female Lich's? I want to think, "Oh crap..."

Lich's have potential, but DE c'mon, please, please listen to your community. We're repeating over and over what we do and don't like. 

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40 minutes ago, (PS4)JustitiaCaelum said:

This

 

37 minutes ago, Sunder said:

& This too.

Agreed. What I don't understand is it's called a kuva lich, that gives no kuva.  Why not allow us to kill the lich (like in mordor)  and it's "revived" by kuva, thus each rank would increase the amount of kuva it holds , meaning if you kill a rank 5 KL you get 50,000 (or so) kuva. Bam, easy, simple - makes sense, and fits into lore. Each rank of KL increases the weapon bonus damage by X%, meaning you kill a rank 1 and might get a 15% bonus damage weapon (meaning you don't care about the lich), but if you kill the rank 5 you get a 60%. Gets rid of that RNG mess. 

 

Just amazing how much DE dropped the ball on KL, yet they're supposed to be a foundation stone in Empyrean, wonder if they're smart enough to fix it, or if it will backfire on them - assuming the community actually does something about it. Or if we just get to suffer through 200% + more grind and call it 'fun and engaging' content.  

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I just find it a little disappointing that liches aren't in their own "boss" nodes.

Like yeah, it's kinda cool that they can invade your missions, but they only do this on missions where you kill thralls, and those are just normal missions + thralls.

Meanwhile, at Tennocon, it was sort of implied that Liches were going to be part of the Empyrean systems, controlling their own fleet of ships and gaining more influence that way, and you'd need to load up your railjack to go hunt them down and fight them.

Maybe liches working in this manner is just a stop-gap until then? I don't know. It remains a sleight disappointment though. Even just giving me an assassination mission on a grineer galleon after killing X number of thralls would be nice. I'm not sure how matchmaking would work with this, but when I want to fight liches, I want to fight MY lich. I don't want to go into random missions hoping that my lich is butthurt enough to spawn before someone else's... especially if that someone else has no intention of actually fighting their lich because reasons.

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