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veryhighcholesterol

Everything about the Kuva Lich system is awful

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This half-baked system has introduced a tidal-wave of anti-fun and participating in it is a chore.

We can't kill the lich without the proper runes, fine. We need to open requiem relics to get those runes, okay. The only way to get the relics is kuva siphons, ugh. The relics may not always *give* those words, christ. When you finally get them, you don't know which words are the correct words without grinding for requiem murmurs for literal hours, getting old. Then when you know what runes to bring, you have to throw yourself at this jerkwad and *pray* that you had them in correct order, ugh. If you guess wrong you're instakilled, yeah great that's fine no really that's super awesome. Did I mention the literal fun tax? You don't get your loot until it dies. The upgraded grineer guns are neat, until you have to pay a 5-forma tax to get that last bit of mastery!

So there's a grind within a grind within a grind within a grind within a grind within a grind within a grind and all it's giving me is a headache. This system in its current incarnation sucks ass and is significantly overtuned. I'll nip the incoming slippery slope fallacies in the bud and say I'm not asking for handouts or asking for game-journalist easymode. What I'm asking for is a gameplay mechanic that doesn't turn me to drinking. Dial back the grind. DE promised us they would never introduce a grind as obnoxious as Cetus ever again, and then they introduced one that's even worse.

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But hey, sustainable content! Right? Or can you give an example of sustainable content that doesn't involve layers of grind?

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I am of exactly the opposite mind on this. I'm loving this system, and no... it doesn't feel half-baked to me at all.

I'm glad to finally have content I can work at, instead of just popping into a 20-minute mission and, oh look they handed everything I've ever wanted to me on a silver platter (RNG permitting).

It's not perfect. There's some room for improvement (like... it's stealing my Kuva relics. And my traces). But I don't feel the salt the way you are.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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You forgot complete RNG on the guns and their buff, and if you don't want that particular weapon you still have to do the grind and hope you get what you are looking for. I agree with you OP this completely over done.

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12 minutes ago, veryhighcholesterol said:

-snip-

Jeez, chill down, at least im having fun, you should be happy for me right?

2 minutes ago, S0V3REiGN said:

You forgot complete RNG on the guns and their buff, and if you don't want that particular weapon you still have to do the grind and hope you get what you are looking for. I agree with you OP this completely over done.

Actually its not as much RNG as you think, at least the elements you can pick based on the frame you use on the mission to kill the Lichling
1CD68D029BC21CC24728EC0E14CB126CB3A89931

Edited by BiancaRoughfin
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Starting it off does suck. Trying to get the requiem mods at the very start takes a good chunk of time and adds to the slog of the first lich + lack of knowledge on them. Honestly after that it's relatively smooth, it takes time still but give how long it takes for you to kill a single lich and you get 3 lich kills minimum per mod you have so much time to replace a mod low on juice.

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12 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Jeez, chill down, at least im having fun, you should be happy for me right?

Actually its not as much RNG as you think, at least the elements you can pick based on the frame you use on the mission to kill the Lichling
1CD68D029BC21CC24728EC0E14CB126CB3A89931

I know about the damage type I mean the % of the buff, thats random.

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I ran all of the kuva missions available in the past 3 hours. I got 2 relics, of the 8 iv opened 1 was a word. Iv earned 4 words in 2 days. I tried the spers and that t sloggy and boring after 2 missions. So even if i fill my wispers i have 3 words of the 8. i was excitef to get my first lich anf try the system out, but lost interest after all the above. Luckily he has Eris, he can keep it. m just going to plod along but will not devote my time to it. Theres no challenge.  If you dont want to deal with it ignore your lich and he ll never get stronger.

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if the % buff difference wasn't so gigantic, I'd actually really like this system. I don't mind grinding for a prime frame, or a specific mod. But when I'm grinding for a weapon I like, with an element I'd like, and it's a Brakk with 26% heat, and I know that I could get a Brakk with 60% bonus heat damage instead, and it's gonna take 2-3 hours to clear this lich so I could try again for a weapon with a good roll? Then I #*!%ing hate it. 

If the minimum and maximum had like...a 10% difference, I'd just shrug. When I could be getting the exact same weapon but with more than double the amount of bonus damage, and it's my 3rd lich sofar and the BEST bonus damage % out of the 3 was literally 30%? 

Then it stops being fun grind, and turns into "I'm avoiding this system till they fix it" grind. 

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28 minutes ago, 844448 said:

But hey, sustainable content! Right? Or can you give an example of sustainable content that doesn't involve layers of grind?

Make the mods not consumed in any way shape or form. The lich’s will still be a grind and still remain sustainable content.

Seriously who tf idea was it to have the requiem mods be consumed. That’s like having your amp destroyed after every Eidolon or profit taker fight.

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3 minutes ago, SpaceAgeBrain said:

if the % buff difference wasn't so gigantic, I'd actually really like this system. I don't mind grinding for a prime frame, or a specific mod. But when I'm grinding for a weapon I like, with an element I'd like, and it's a Brakk with 26% heat, and I know that I could get a Brakk with 60% bonus heat damage instead, and it's gonna take 2-3 hours to clear this lich so I could try again for a weapon with a good roll? Then I #*!%ing hate it. 

If the minimum and maximum had like...a 10% difference, I'd just shrug. When I could be getting the exact same weapon but with more than double the amount of bonus damage, and it's my 3rd lich sofar and the BEST bonus damage % out of the 3 was literally 30%? 

Then it stops being fun grind, and turns into "I'm avoiding this system till they fix it" grind. 

Wait, is it actually bonus damage?

Or is it more... a percentage of it's total damage as that type?

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Make the mods not consumed in any way shape or form. The lich’s will still be a grind and still remain sustainable content.

Seriously who tf idea was it to have the requiem mods be consumed. That’s like having your amp destroyed after every Eidolon or profit taker fight.

I think the mindset was to give us incentive to continuously farm Kuva Relics.

I don't think it's a good idea in the long run, though. Surely the Riven Slivers and the Kuva was enough incentive?

Maybe if the Requiem Mods could be dissolved into Kuva, instead of Endo, it might not be so terrible.

Edited by DrakeWurrum

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31 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Wait, is it actually bonus damage?

Or is it more... a percentage of it's total damage as that type?

It's a bonus. If you type [kuva karak] it'll tell you it does 7.1, 6.2, 9.7. Once I equip it (doesn't say it in the preview) it tacks on 5.6 rad because of my 24%. Maybe it does to an extent cause I notice my karak does .2 less of each ips. Unless the entire weapons stats are random too.

Edit: Got a kuva tonkor from a 43% lich. Kuva tonkor has 733 base, my rad one has 758 where half the blast turned into rad. Huh. It also doesn't have more reload speed than tonkor... Well this seems right borked.

Edited by Annnoth
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2 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Make the mods not consumed in any way shape or form. The lich’s will still be a grind and still remain sustainable content.

Seriously who tf idea was it to have the requiem mods be consumed. That’s like having your amp destroyed after every Eidolon or profit taker fight.

Maybe instead they should have made a questline to grab the mods, do have them consume but you could just do a Kuva Syphon mission with 1 mod to completely recharge it or 3 to recover 1 charge in each at a time.

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9 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

 

I think the mindset was to give us incentive to continuously farm Kuva Relics.

I don't think it's a good idea in the long run, though. Surely the Riven Slivers and the Kuva was enough incentive?

Maybe if the Requiem Mods could be dissolved into Kuva, instead of Endo, it might not be so terrible.

You’re talking to someone who doesn’t like rivens and sees them as a completely unecessary addition to the game. So justify one of the worst decisions made for the Kuva liches with them isn’t doing anything for me.

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29 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re talking to someone who doesn’t like rivens and sees them as a completely unecessary addition to the game. So justify one of the worst decisions made for the Kuva liches with them isn’t doing anything for me.

I feel like they were necessary, personally.

The reason being that gear in Warframe doesn't have randomized stats (well, now we have Kuva weapons, but they're brand new). This is a problem for a looter game. The devs at PoE decided that one of the "design pillars" for a successful looter was randomly generated items. Rivens fulfill this role for Warframe. It gives us something to work for and play with sustainably, instead of just "Welp, I've got all the guns, I'm done now!"

A lot of the people who seem to hate Rivens, that I've seen, seem to think that DE was trying to "fix" weapon balance somehow with them. I disagree with that notion. They obviously have done nothing for the weapon balance, of course, so I'm not sure where people got that idea.

37 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

It's a bonus. If you type [kuva karak] it'll tell you it does 7.1, 6.2, 9.7. Once I equip it (doesn't say it in the preview) it tacks on 5.6 rad because of my 24%. Maybe it does to an extent cause I notice my karak does .2 less of each ips. Unless the entire weapons stats are random too.

Edit: Got a kuva tonkor from a 43% lich. Kuva tonkor has 733 base, my rad one has 758 where half the blast turned into rad. Huh. It also doesn't have more reload speed than tonkor... Well this seems right borked.

...huh. Judging from your edit, it sounds like the stats are substantially more randomized that I was expecting.

It does sound like a bonus, though. Which, yeah, makes that WIDE range of bonus damage absolutely lame.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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5 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I feel like they were necessary, personally.

They’re 100% not. If DE wanted to have lesser used weapons used more. Then they just should have buffed those weapons and not make this incredibly toxic addition to Warframe.

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I haven't been so immersed in this game in years. Everything in this update has felt deeply thought out to me. Between the challenge of the Grendel missions, having the freedom of choosing between endless fun and viable melee weapons, having someone who can actually kick my tail, and really wanting to spare my current Lich but knowing he's got a +50% toxin Kohm, really brings back the memories, the struggles, and excitement of when I started playing the game years ago.

I can't have enough of it.

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3 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They’re 100% not. If DE wanted to have lesser used weapons used more. Then they just should have buffed those weapons and not make this incredibly toxic addition to Warframe.

Repeating myself:

10 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

A lot of the people who seem to hate Rivens, that I've seen, seem to think that DE was trying to "fix" weapon balance somehow with them. I disagree with that notion. They obviously have done nothing for the weapon balance, of course, so I'm not sure where people got that idea.

You're making the assumption they were done to "force" us to use lesser weapons more. I completely disagree that this was the purpose for Rivens.

I completely disagree that Rivens were a toxic addition. They added a very necessary degree of randomness to our loot.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

 

...huh. Judging from your edit, it sounds like the stats are substantially more randomized that I was expecting.

It does sound like a bonus, though. Which, yeah, makes that WIDE range of bonus damage absolutely lame.

The strangest part is only the damage is different from the weapon you can tag in chat or view in arsenal before equipping it. The kuva tonkor when viewed like this STILL shows the exact same reload speed as the normal tonkor. I'll try and compare my friends karak to mine if he's around.

Edit: Got his numbers. The IPS was the exact same on both, 6.9, 6.0, 9.4. However instead of 5.6 rad damage he had 8.3 toxin which makes sense given he claims his bonus was ~33% while mine was 25%. So basically it seems that slightly lowered base you see on equip is the real base damage it adds the damage to since 25% of 22.3 is 5.575. Not sure how the game gave him 8.6 because neither 38% or 39% round to that but that's all I got.

Edited by Annnoth

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7 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Repeating myself:

You're making the assumption they were done to "force" us to use lesser weapons more. I completely disagree that this was the purpose for Rivens.

If that’s the case then why do they increase the drop chance and stat roll % of lesser used weapons and decrease those for the most used weapons every 3 months? They are here in the game for the explicit reason of getting you to try non-meta weapons.

and in regards to them being toxic. They’ve basically turned weapon damage progress into RNG. This is the same issue people are having with Kuva weapons rn having random % elemental damage, but at least those cant be traded. It just creates a bad mind set of “If you want your weapon to be good you’re going to have to gamble for it, or cough up a couple thousand plat”. And that’s just not healthy.

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The only part that sucks is the relic grind for the Requiem Mods. And Kuva Floods are still borked and not giving a guaranteed relic on top of it.

RNG 1- getting the relic drops in the first place
RNG 2- getting the right one
Sidegrind - get a ton of traces to radiant it
RNG 3- actually get a mod drop from the radshare
RNG 4- get the R. Mod you actually need
The Kicker - they're only good for three uses

That part is awful. Removing the relics so the mods drop from Kuva missions, having charges regenerate each day, making the mods permanent, even setting it so that converting a lich doesn't eat a charge and only killing them does, there's a ton of ways to improve that. 

However, once you get them, hunting the Lich is wonderful. With over 3k hours in game, its the only thing that's challenging for me personally. I love having entire planets spawn at lv100, hunting down the murmur mooks is fun, finally getting the kill is very satisfying. The wall of grind in front of it is tainting the experience, as are the crap drops in those relics other than the mods, though the relic "rewards" are going to get their own post from me at some point.

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I'm really enjoying my personal enemy Odd Udragg. For the firat time in a while I'm getting some stakes in my gameplay, and some genuine excitement from missions.

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27 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They’re 100% not. If DE wanted to have lesser used weapons used more. Then they just should have buffed those weapons and not make this incredibly toxic addition to Warframe.

What, you don't like gambling away all your kuva or the presence of "god-roll" rubico rivens selling 5000p and up?  Its just a gambling addiction, don't be such a wuss! lol

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'Everything about'? No, there's definitely the bones of a good system. When I'm actually hunting my Lich it's fun. I find the fight itself a pretty stiff challenge (albeit very crit-meta dominated) but with learnable 'rules' with how the abilities work. Like 'don't stand in the Molecular Prime field'

The system needs a lot of work though. It's bare-bones in places, feels artificial with how the Lich themselves is heavily gated, and definitely needs a bit more give-and-take before the final showdown. And of course, the RNG which, as the only means to acquire requiem mods, taints the process. In addition, some lich-focused missions wouldn't hurt, possibly a run on an old orokin ruin for a Requiem Mod with your lich in hot pursuit or a battle to reclaim part of your stolen loot, taking place ATOP A PILE OF your stolen loot! Missions where you two are forced to clash, instead of 'don't have the mods, won't bother' mentality the current system encourages.

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I also got a huge issue with this "kuva lich system" , let me explain:

To kill a kuva lich you need requiem mods that you get from special relics, my problem is : my kuva lich perma camp the missions where you get those relics and STOLE it every damn time !!!

So to end this crap i am forced to get my requiem from trade and spend my precious plat to get rid of this jackass's lich, this retarded system shows how little thoughts was put into this...

Minblowing...

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