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Condition Overload + Pressure Point additive formula is where the nerf went too far.

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I thought about going into a bit of detail about the math in this post. But instead I'm just going to keep this as simple as I can. 

I can understand why DE would want to prevent Exponential scaling on the Condition Overload stacks. With enough status effects, that old formula could potentially get out of control. Instead they buffed the value to 120% to compensate for the new calculation. That makes a lot of sense, and doesn't change the typical effectiveness of the mod to dramatically. (even though it's still a massive nerf for endurance players, admittedly)

However, that's not all that changed. They took it a step further than that. Condition Overload damage now applies under the same modifier type as Pressure Point and Spoiled Strike type mods. CO will now add to these types of modifiers instead of multiplying by them. It's somewhat difficult to explain without going into a lot more detail, but this makes Condition Overload so very much worse than it would have been. Making the mod additive to Pressure Point type mods is just excessive overbalancing.

I imagine this change was just motivated by DE trying to be overly safe and conservative. Before, I know there were some Alarmist posts on these forums featuring screenshots of broken Damage numbers caused by Condition Overload. I think DE was just trying to make 100% sure they fixed this, because some very vocal players of Warframe have grown continually more averse to Power Creep.

But I feel strongly that the Pressure Point additive formula was a mistake. Condition Overload has been such an important mod to the game because of the Build Framework that it provided for status based Melee weapons. It could be said that Condition Overload was the Blood Rush of status builds. It was able to do this because of the fact that it applied damage on a separate multiplicative modifier.

This is the same reason why Blood Rush provides a good build framework for critical Weapons. The Critical Damage applies on a separate multiplicative modifier. Condition Overload (and status Melee Weapons by extension) can't compete with Blood Rush if the math applies dramatically differently. We don't need to go back to a situation where Status-Based melee weapons are bad again.

I've even seen some very strange conversations about omitting Pressure Point from builds, and just using CO instead. And that's not even such a crazy thing to consider now that it works this way. That's how redundant this math is. The diminishing returns are brutal.

This isn't beyond fixing though. Just allow Condition Overload to apply multiplicatively with Pressure Point type modifiers again, and that should put CO in a good place again.

 

*Edit*

I don’t want to confuse anyone with what I’m trying to say about this math. So I’ll provide the simplest example that I can.

Let’s say I have a weapon with a base Damage of 1. Then I’m going to mod it with Primed Pressure Point which is +165% damage. Then I’m going to Mod it with Condition Overload, and for this scenario we are going to say we have 3 Status Procs on the enemy. So, that’s +360% Damage. Let’s see what the Damage is if Pressure Point and Condition Overload are additive, then Multiplicative.

Additive:

1 * (1 + 1.65 + 3.6) = 6.25

Multiplicative:

1 * (1 + 1.65) * (1 + 3.6) = 12.19

 

So, the Additive Formula cuts the damage about in half for this very plausible scenario. That’s a big nerf. People need to understand that. Let me repeat this type of representation for a Critical Weapon.

Let’s say a Crit Weapon is going to reach 100% Critical Chance (which is common for good Crit Weapons). And for the sake of example, let’s just say it’s exactly 100%, so the Critical Damage applies equally all the time with no Orange Crits (there is chance involved with Crit Weapons, so this simplifies the estimate). And let’s say the weapon gets 4.75x Critical Damage Multiplier with Organ Shatter (that's a starting Crit Multiplier of 2.5, also common for good Crit Weapons). Then we also Mod it with Primed Pressure Point. Again, Base Damage of 1:

1 * (1 + 1.65) * 4.75 = 12.59

 

See how the numbers are a lot closer when Condition Overload is calculated Multiplicatively.

12.19 vs. 12.59

And remember, this doesn’t even account for Blood Rush weapons that can scale even higher into Orange/Red Crit territory. Plus, then CO can also have some extra scaling to match Orange/Red Crits when good Status weapons get more procs. It works out. Making CO multiplicative just makes it compare to Crit Weapons better. It’s not unbalanced, it’s more balanced.

Edited by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_
Included Math
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Honestly, I'm kind of enjoying the modslot that not having pressure point on opened up.

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I think its only fair, what would be the point of nerfing spin-to-win to the ground because it was "the only option for melee" if all it would do was make everybody use condition overload builds?

People asked for balance, and now everything is balanced, everything is mediocre, next time people should think about what they want better.

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I agree with OP and the biggest difference of CO vs meme strike and Bloodrush is that CO worked as a tool to escalate damage against one specific target that is very hard to kill (one had to apply tons of statuses to that target and go on hitting it to get all from CO, but when target is switched - CO power is gone and has to be built up again). I was ok with that and even used some status secondaries for that purpose, and it felt good to switch fast between weapons. Now CO barely helps to kill targets in index 2-3 rounds.

I just wish there was some better scaling when you hit insanely heavy targets for an extended time, adding status effects from other sources to bring that enemy down.

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12 hours ago, Caramello said:

People asked for balance, and now everything is balanced, everything is mediocre, next time people should think about what they want better.

I can understand why people are asking for balance. But I don't think this is balance. It's not balanced that Status melee weapons are now inferior to Crit weapons once again. Balance would mean that both Condition Overload and Crit apply multiplicatively to other damage modifiers. But one still does apply multiplicatively, and now the other does not. Imbalance has been created. I feel like this is the difference between people who actually want balance, and people who have somehow become nerf-crusaders (for lack of a better term). So, I agree to be careful what kind of nerfs you ask for.

 

12 hours ago, Caramello said:

I think its only fair, what would be the point of nerfing spin-to-win to the ground because it was "the only option for melee" if all it would do was make everybody use condition overload builds?

I think Nerfing spin-to-win was mostly to get people to change their playstyle. They accompanied that nerf by making a lot more stances viable. I think they just wanted people to use more types of melee movements (like stance combos) instead of 1 repeated attack. I can understand that.

I don't think that nerfing Maiming Strike on it's own would have necessarily caused Status builds to dominate Crit builds. Because Blood Rush is still totally viable even if Maiming Strike isn't really. I think the Maiming Stike nerf was mostly just to create a counter-incentive for basing builds entirely around spin attacks. None of the changes related to spin-to-win justify nerfing Condition Overload so severely though.

But I understand disliking the mediocrity that is Melee 3.0. Phase 2 had some good ideas, but they were generally outweighed by the bad. Melee Phase 2 just needs some serious review and responses to feedback.

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In my opinion, it feels pretty nice to use. CO is a feasible replacement for Pressure Point in status builds, and we all know that damage mods multiplying off of each other can tend to trivialize things. It's like the Chroma nerf. His math was being done improperly, as in not the intended way by his design, so they fixed it. It was probably an oversight in the beginning in the case of CO and Pressure Point.

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10 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

I agree with OP and the biggest difference of CO vs meme strike and Bloodrush is that CO worked as a tool to escalate damage against one specific target that is very hard to kill (one had to apply tons of statuses to that target and go on hitting it to get all from CO, but when target is switched - CO power is gone and has to be built up again)

This is a good point. Condition Overload has always been a mod that rewarded weapon synergy. And to synergize with weapons, you have to consider the time it takes to apply status effects first before even swinging a melee weapon. Or if you are not using weapon synergies, consider the amount of hits from your melee weapon that it takes to proc status before you are rewarded with more damage.

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10 hours ago, Reiyd said:

we all know that damage mods multiplying off of each other can tend to trivialize things

Actually, Mods multiplying by Mods is the basis of most weapon builds in Warframe. Unless you want to fundamentally change how damage generally works, this is totally normal. For example, a Primary build may look something like this: Damage x Multishot x Elementals x Crit x whatever else you can manage (Primed Faction Damage maybe?).

So, additive Mod formulas are not always warranted. Instead DE should be selective about using them. In the case of Condition Overload, I believe it was okay to make the Stacks additive with each other (because there were just too many possible stacks). However, it was not warranted to make the entire Mod additive with Pressure Point modifiers.

For example, a previous Status build may look something like this: Damage x Combo Counter x Elementals x Attack Speed x Condition Overload. Then other mods in the build may focus on adding several Status effects, etc.

Now, a status build may look more like this: Damage and/or Condition Overload x Elementals x Attack Speed. With Condition Overload unable to provide a separate Modifier, Status builds just don't don't enough multiplicative scaling power to compete.

However, Blood Rush/Crit builds have no such problem. That's why Condition Overload should just be changed to a separate modifier from Pressure Point, so that it can provide a benefit comparable to Blood Rush for Status weapons.

10 hours ago, Reiyd said:

It's like the Chroma nerf. His math was being done improperly, as in not the intended way by his design, so they fixed it.

Oh I'm aware of how much this resembles the Chroma nerf. Whether that was intended math or not, it's just weird to make a Warframe's damage buff have diminishing returns that not all players would know about.

Let me explain. When people go into their stat screen to look at Chroma's Damage modifier (provided that they are using Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, etc.) then the actual benefit they are receiving from Vex Armor is always less than the Damage Multiplier they are given in the stat screen. And not everyone actually understands that. I think it's unintentionally convoluted.

What's more, it's not really fair for Base Damage mods to come into these diminishing-returns-type conflicts. If they wanted to control Chroma's damage, they should have just changed his numbers instead of his formula. That would have been a lot simpler, and not caused modding conflicts. How does it make sense that all these Chroma builds are running like 700% more damage but people are actually only benefiting like a fraction of that? Just make the number not reach like 700% and keep the simpler calculation.

So yeah, whether things should be additive or multiplicative depends on the situation. And a significant amount of players are pretty upset about Condition Overload and status weapons now. And how melee works is a lot more important than Chroma.

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11 hours ago, Reiyd said:

we all know that damage mods multiplying off of each other can tend to trivialize things

Oh, and I just wanted to add that making Condition Overload additive is not going to save the game from being trivial. DE designing harder content and enemies is what would prevent the game from being trivial.

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11 hours ago, Reiyd said:

. It's like the Chroma nerf. His math was being done improperly, as in not the intended way by his design, so they fixed it.

People don't actually believe this, do they?

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Additive damage does diminish after having other similarly like mods. Have you seen the 120% heavy damage mod? That one is has to be a joke, as the damage increase is so small. 

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Blood Rush is additive now as well, and has devalued the other crit chance mods in exactly the same way  that the new formula for CO has devalued pressure point.

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On 2019-11-02 at 8:08 PM, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

I've even seen some very strange conversations about omitting Pressure Point from builds, and just using CO instead. And that's not even such a crazy thing to consider now that it works this way. That's how redundant this math is. The diminishing returns are brutal.

Personally, I feel like this is where the current iteration of CO is a good thing. Pressure Point isn't mandatory. Depending on the weapon's stats or synergies with other weapons, CO can replace it. Or vice versa. Though the inverse is really rare since most weapons have at least a decent enough status chance to reach those three procs with relative ease, the principle behind it, I think, is workable.

I feel the problem is that there isn't something to replace the gap it left behind, since it was originally something to balance status-focused melees with their crit-based counterparts. Crit may have been diminished in potency because of the Blood Rush nerfs, but at the end of the day, it's an additive set versus a multiplicative one.

TL;DR: I'd rather see a new mod replace Condition Overload, than having CO reverted to its old behaviour. That it can contend with Pressure Point knocks the "mandatory mod" problem around a bit, so I don't think the change is bad, there just needs to be something to fill in the old gap.

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7 minutes ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

Blood Rush is additive now as well, and has devalued the other crit chance mods in exactly the same way  that the new formula for CO has devalued pressure point.

Yes I have heard that Blood Rush will no longer multiply by True Steel type modifiers. I'm not entirely sure where I stand on that change.

However, Blood Rush should still be fine with Pressure Point (as Critical Damage is a separate modifier from Base Damage across all weapon types). So Condition Overload took a worse nerf pretty easily. And Status weapons by extension also did. 

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On 2019-11-02 at 10:32 PM, Caramello said:

I think its only fair, what would be the point of nerfing spin-to-win to the ground because it was "the only option for melee" if all it would do was make everybody use condition overload builds?

People asked for balance, and now everything is balanced, everything is mediocre, next time people should think about what they want better.

You are absolutely correct. When people get what they always asked for they complain I was to be a GOD and dont want the game to feel hard one bit. Honestly this game is way to easy. The hardest part is learning how the game is actually played. Everything else is just to OP frames and weapons. Im not sure what mode it is but saw a streamer talking about the mode everyone kept talking about "NO MODS, ARCANES, RIVEN, NOTHING PERIOD MODE" and now still complaining after they got they were asking for HARD. I swear DE stop listening to all these people who don't even help you create a good game. Just keep doing what you guys do best.

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Condition Overload was nerfed since it was essential on nearly every "high-numbers" melee build. It still is.

 

It seems like the main argument for reverting CO seems to be that it was the only reason status weapons were viable over crit. However the nerf didn't remove how status effects can give a massive damage boost. Now it's still really good, just not as overpowered as before.

Keep in mind that every high-tier crit build has a decent amount of status too, purely because status is a huge boost to DPS even without CO. Status is so strong that Rivens with negative impact/puncture get a huge price boost (even on non-slash based weapons), even though they lower overall paper DPS.

Edited by Zectico
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14 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

I can understand why people are asking for balance. But I don't think this is balance. It's not balanced that Status melee weapons are now inferior to Crit weapons once again. Balance would mean that both Condition Overload and Crit apply multiplicatively to other damage modifiers. But one still does apply multiplicatively, and now the other does not. Imbalance has been created. I feel like this is the difference between people who actually want balance, and people who have somehow become nerf-crusaders (for lack of a better term). So, I agree to be careful what kind of nerfs you ask for.

 

I think Nerfing spin-to-win was mostly to get people to change their playstyle. They accompanied that nerf by making a lot more stances viable. I think they just wanted people to use more types of melee movements (like stance combos) instead of 1 repeated attack. I can understand that.

I don't think that nerfing Maiming Strike on it's own would have necessarily caused Status builds to dominate Crit builds. Because Blood Rush is still totally viable even if Maiming Strike isn't really. I think the Maiming Stike nerf was mostly just to create a counter-incentive for basing builds entirely around spin attacks. None of the changes related to spin-to-win justify nerfing Condition Overload so severely though.

But I understand disliking the mediocrity that is Melee 3.0. Phase 2 had some good ideas, but they were generally outweighed by the bad. Melee Phase 2 just needs some serious review and responses to feedback.

Actually I dont think blood rush multiplies anymore either. I tgot the same math as well I belive.I REALLy cant red crit anymore on weapons that are sitting around 80% base modded crit until i nearly hit max combo...

 

But you are right. CO was the blood rush of status. and got a much shorter end of the stick, thus killing pure status builds. THere was no reason for the nerf other than honestly spin to win. If spin to win was THAT BAD

Remove maiming strike...seriously....that one gameplay element has completely destroyed everyone's builds because they introduced this dam patch to stop it....I would be 100% ok with that mod dissapearing off the face of the earth if it ment that 90% of my arsenal became enjoyable again. 

Edited by SpentCasings

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I must be modding wrong or something. I see people saying status got a harder nerf, but in my experience, status builds are stronger than crit builds. I'm loving cobra and crane atm.

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5 hours ago, SpentCasings said:

Actually I dont think blood rush multiplies anymore either. I tgot the same math as well I belive.I REALLy cant red crit anymore on weapons that are sitting around 80% base modded crit until i nearly hit max combo...

 

But you are right. CO was the blood rush of status. and got a much shorter end of the stick, thus killing pure status builds. THere was no reason for the nerf other than honestly spin to win. If spin to win was THAT BAD

Remove maiming strike...seriously....that one gameplay element has completely destroyed everyone's builds because they introduced this dam patch to stop it....I would be 100% ok with that mod dissapearing off the face of the earth if it ment that 90% of my arsenal became enjoyable again. 

The changes mean you can delete any +dmg mods since they will never be worth using. This also means any +cc mods since they will never be worth using. This also means any melee riven with +dmg and/or +cc can be deleted as it's now worthless.

Blood rush doesn't take into account the modded crit, but only base, so why would anyone waste a slot to get 780% cc instead of 720%. Makes no sense. 

Condition overload is 2x primed pressure point with 2 status effects. There isn't a weapon in the game that cannot apply 2 status effects by itself without even trying.

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Blood rush and CO Hybrid builds are the way to go now, not noticing much of a difference, we have a scaling heat proc now that melts anything that isn't status immune and weeping wounds is so obscenely strong with 11 stacks that you can get 100% status on a lot of weapons. Melee base damage got triple for most weapons, you can still annihilate level 300 grineer, CO is still more than worth the mod slot, what exactly is your issue with it not being completely OP and broken?

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On 2019-11-02 at 11:08 PM, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

But I feel strongly that the Pressure Point additive formula was a mistake. Condition Overload has been such an important mod to the game because of the Build Framework that it provided for status based Melee weapons. It could be said that Condition Overload was the Blood Rush of status builds. It was able to do this because of the fact that it applied damage on a separate multiplicative modifier.

This is the same reason why Blood Rush provides a good build framework for critical Weapons. The Critical Damage applies on a separate multiplicative modifier. Condition Overload (and status Melee Weapons by extension) can't compete with Blood Rush if the math applies dramatically differently. We don't need to go back to a situation where Status-Based melee weapons are bad again.

Status based weapons were overpowering Crit. 

Status ( especially corrosive ) reduces armor or Slash which completely bypasses armor.

Crit while it had large numbers was reduced by armor and required time to build up. Most status weapons especially with primed fury were able to apply multiple status effect near instantly to easily get that burst damage.

So Crit still requires slow build up

While Status now is more early bursts 

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Okay so now it seems that I'm just hearing "You wanted something OP to stay in the game? Shame on you." But that is not what I wanted.

I've already said a few times that I think it's fine for the Stacks of Condition Overload to stack additively with each other. That was what was making the mod OP before. That's gone, and it's totally fine.

But I don't think anyone has come up with a good reason why the Mod should stack additively with Pressure Point, which creates even more diminishing returns. The OP part of the Mod was already fixed, so the double-nerf was just too much.

Some of you might have builds with Condition Overload and think that it's fine. But that's pretty subjective. I've heard just as many complaints about Condition Overload and Melee 3.0 being very disappointing.

What I'm recommending is more of a compromise. Let the Status Stacks keep the additive calculation while CO itself is reverted to Multiplicative with Pressure Point Damage modifiers. Again, Condition Overload was nerfed twice, so I'm only recommending to revert part of that. I know that some of you pleased by nerfs would rather just go all the way with the nerfs. But consider other players and how this must feel for them.

 

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7 hours ago, xxswatelitexx said:

Status based weapons were overpowering Crit. 

Status ( especially corrosive ) reduces armor or Slash which completely bypasses armor.

Crit while it had large numbers was reduced by armor and required time to build up. Most status weapons especially with primed fury were able to apply multiple status effect near instantly to easily get that burst damage.

So Crit still requires slow build up

While Status now is more early bursts 

properly built weapons before the changes would be red critting after as few as 2 hits...

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7 hours ago, FiveN9ne said:

The changes mean you can delete any +dmg mods since they will never be worth using. This also means any +cc mods since they will never be worth using. This also means any melee riven with +dmg and/or +cc can be deleted as it's now worthless.

Blood rush doesn't take into account the modded crit, but only base, so why would anyone waste a slot to get 780% cc instead of 720%. Makes no sense. 

Condition overload is 2x primed pressure point with 2 status effects. There isn't a weapon in the game that cannot apply 2 status effects by itself without even trying.

Because it works great until you are facing anything with a significant amount of armor. THen you arent doing piss for damage. A crit weapon with decent base status for armor stripping and slash procs will massively outdps you. 

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I mean, 360% damage that is very easy to get on almost any weapon? Even slightly buffing that by making it multiplicative at any level would be... a bit much. If your mod is able to push out Primed Pressure point... I feel like that should say enough. Melee 3.0 has made almost everything better as far as usability goes, Blood Rush is still good but not quite so crazy, Maiming strike is still a strong mod, just not ridiculous and CO is merely amazing as opposed to single handedly running the meta.

Basically, it's still strong now, buffing it at all is merely trying to revive the glory of it's previous incarnation, which should stay buried and, ideally, forgotten as fast as possible.

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