Something needs to be done about players who won't attack their lich

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Justify killing the player after they've won. Explain why you should die, AFTER WINNING THE FIGHT, simply because 2 mods were in different places.

There is no justification, there is no single reason why a player who downs their Lich with 0 damage taken should then suddenly be killed like it is nothing.

Of all things I can't comprehend it is why some people would defend a pointless automatic death. It would be like starting up Super Mario Bros. but then as soon as you touched the goalpost you lost a life, it is bassackwards game design.

[EmberStar]

3 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

Boo Hoo , its just one life , Im conviced our comunity has some kind of allergy for dying

Since you apparently didn't bother read what I said, the issue isn't losing a revive.  The issue is that the entire mechanic is "I won, I *beat you,* you're lying half dead on the floor.  And now I get to press X to FAIL."  There's no challenge, no skill, no puzzle involved.  Either you have the right mods in the right slots in the right order, or you instantly fail and the lich gets stronger.  And the lich getting stronger also has no risk vs reward.  They get harder to kill, become more likely to use the "higher tier" powers like Hallowed Ground (meaning radiation procs even on non-radiation Lich.)  And in return the player gets NOTHING.  Just a harder enemy that will still instantly kill them for no reason.

And the thing is, the dialogue doesn't even support it.  When the lich instantly kills you, the male lich makes comments that sure *sound* like you just killed HIM.  "This means nothing Tenno!  I'm just going to come back as something even worse!"  Except he's not going anywhere, his invincible plot armor means that he just won and you're lying dead on the floor.

Even games that *EXPECT* you to die reinforce that death is, in fact, a failure state.  Dead Cells sends you back to the beginning and takes away all your money, and I'm pretty sure it generates a new layout for whatever level you're on.  Dark Souls sends you back to the last checkpoint and takes away all your money.  IF you can reach your body, you get the money back and can use it to buy upgrades.  I don't play Dark Souls, so I don't know what other mechanics are added to it.  (I think I read that one of them cuts your life and mana in half?  And then sends you to try to reach your body, which is probably lying under the thing that stomped you into the floor the first time.  So you can have your stuff back if you can prove that you didn't actually need it?)  In any case, you are rewarded for not dying by keeping your money to buy upgrades.  Which make it easier (or at least possible) to NOT DIE as often.

And again, those are games that gleefully kill you, possibly over and over, in the TUTORIAL.  And there are players who take the entire game mechanic as a challenge to be overcome.  There are apparently people who have beaten the "opening death scene" werewolf in Bloodbourne with the short rotten stick you get as a starting weapon.  People play through those games in a self-imposed "Zero deaths, zero level-ups" hardcore mode.  And some of them actually win.

But that can't happen here.  No matter how well you play, no matter how much you plan, you're still almost certain to die by cutscene.  Over and over.  The system we have punishes you for doing well (push a lich off a planet and they level up.  WTF?)  It punishes you for beating your lich half to death, and doesn't even give you the courtesy of pretending you can do anything about it.  (Like throwing in a nearly impossible Quick Time Event.)  The current system doesn't even really encourage teamwork (in a CO-OP GAME.)  If my lich spawns in and I instantly sacrifice myself to make him go away, the rest of the team gets nothing.  They have no incentive to help if I'm struggling *except* in the case that someone wants my lich out of the way so they can roll the dice that theirs will show up.  It's actually best for the team if I ignore my lich and let him wander around converting enemies into Thralls until he stops doing that.  Unless it's a Defense mission or Spy where the lich can actually fail the mission, and as long as people don't stand in his Hallowed Ground and get themselves irradiated.

The whole system is backwards and inside out.  I'm sure that DE has "a plan," but I have no idea what they could have been thinking.  The current setup is complete adventure game moon logic.  As in, those old point and click games where you can't open a stuck door with the crowbar in your inventory, because reasons.  You have to open the pipe to fill the well, then knock the beehive into the well with a slingshot, then collect the honey from the drowned bees and give it to the bear.  Then *HE* will knock down the door for you.  Why is there a bear in the room watching you struggle with this door?  Don't ask stupid questions.

[Tsukinoki]

3 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

I dont see the probblem here , I cant remember last time I died in mission and this feels so refreshing like back in old days when I was newb .

The problem is that I didn't die because the enemy was stronger, I died because the game said so with zero way to avoid it.

Fact is that I can stand in front of a level 5 lich for 15 minutes AFK and not even get minorly hurt, but the second I hit X I'm on the floor spending a revive even though the enemy was beaten and helpless 1 second eartly.

The lich didn't beat me, the game just slapped me across the face for zero reason.

When I was a new player and I died it was because I made a mistake, or fought enemies higher level than me, or got careless, or didn't pay attention to my health/shields.  The lich though?  He can't hurt me.  His minions can't hurt me.  He's bleeding out on the floor one second and then just one-shots me the next.  I didn't make any mistakes just the game telling me that I lose.

1 hour ago, bad4youLT said:

Couse is failing puzzle and its not sudden , its player choice , player knows what will happen if he fails , risk vs reward , go lucky or get rekt . 

In simular sence rivens work the same way just with less deaths .

Please tell me:
How is this a "puzzle"?
Its pure random chance, nothing more nothing less.
There isn't anything you can do to figure out the right combination except brute force....which pretty much goes against good puzzle design.

If it was a puzzle there would be a way to determine the solution without just blindly trying everything until it suddenly works.

Please tell me:
How would it feel if you went through a spy vault perfectly, didn't trigger any alarms, and managed to hack the vault perfectly only for the game to randomly fail that vault because you didn't know that you were supposed to run that one vault last and nothing in the game provided any hints that "The A vault needs to be ran last this time around..." and there are zero clues as to what order you're supposed to run the three vaults in, and it changes every single time you attempt it?
Because that is basically the "puzzle" that the liches provide.

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, bad4youLT said:

its player choice , player knows what will happen if he fails , risk vs reward , go lucky or get rekt

This is possibly a nutshell of why some players don't try to kill their Lich, I hope you know.

[zoffmode]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really, not until we have the 3 mods unlocked. Prior to that it is pretty damn optional if you wanna blind test or not.

If it was intended that we'd stab our lich everytime then it would have been a forced automatic mechanic, which it isnt.

We'll see how DE handles it with update. I'm of opinion that it's been intended to pretty much always stab the Lich, DE just didn't expect some players to not do it. They didn't think some people would be so averse to the idea that they didn't even have bonus stab murmurs originally.

As for automatic mechanic, similar could be said for Lich not going away if you don't stab him and thus the intended design being that you're expected to stab him at all times. 

Anyway, depending on how DE handles the next Lich update, that'll clear up things hopefully. I have a feeling some people will stick with their "never failing" regardless of what DE does though just because it "feels bad". Sometimes a game forces you to lose so you can feel better winning later... but I guess some people can't stand that idea.

[Aldain]

6 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

Sometimes a game forces you to lose so you can feel better winning later

That isn't a thing in 99% of games.

Even in RPGs where such "unwinnable" fights exist in the highest number the loss is framed as a narrative loss, the enemy is so much stronger than the player than the loss was expected, so players don't question or mourn the loss because they instantly think "There was no way I could win that".

Here there is no story reason why you can win the fight handily and get wrecked while the enemy is on their knees, it denies the player a victory that they already had, rather than making them lose a fight they had no chance of winning.

You can't take a victory back from a player for something that they won, THAT is why people don't like it. This isn't losing to the Lich because of the gameplay, this is having a victory denied for no logical reason.

[Tyreaus]

4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Even in RPGs where such "unwinnable" fights exist in the highest number the loss is framed as a narrative loss, the enemy is so much stronger than the player than the loss was expected, so players don't question or mourn the loss because they instantly think "There was no way I could win that".

To add onto this: they don't tend to penalize players in the same way as a player-controlled loss. But Liches do that, even getting stronger to further act as a deterrent against dying.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

People still upset random8777 won't kill their lich? I'm upset ps4 is just getting the updates in cert from 2-3 months ago 

I'm upset we didn't get our sigil for the 6 years

 

Im upset that the new ash and vaub prime unvaulting has most of the same stuff from unvaultings in the past and twitch prime drops.

Teh

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

The fact that there are those who defend this system is simultaneously hilarious and egregious.

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, zoffmode said:

We'll see how DE handles it with update. I'm of opinion that it's been intended to pretty much always stab the Lich, DE just didn't expect some players to not do it. They didn't think some people would be so averse to the idea that they didn't even have bonus stab murmurs originally.

As for automatic mechanic, similar could be said for Lich not going away if you don't stab him and thus the intended design being that you're expected to stab him at all times. 

Anyway, depending on how DE handles the next Lich update, that'll clear up things hopefully. I have a feeling some people will stick with their "never failing" regardless of what DE does though just because it "feels bad". Sometimes a game forces you to lose so you can feel better winning later... but I guess some people can't stand that idea.

An easy thing they could do is just have people beat the lich 3 times over, after the 3rd, if no parazon interaction is made he will disappear. That gives the owner a good while to react to his lich and start the parazon interaction process.

[EmberStar]

22 hours ago, Aldain said:

That isn't a thing in 99% of games.

Even in RPGs where such "unwinnable" fights exist in the highest number the loss is framed as a narrative loss, the enemy is so much stronger than the player than the loss was expected, so players don't question or mourn the loss because they instantly think "There was no way I could win that".

The games I've experienced that do it also immediately follow it up with an NPC saying "Wow, fate really dumped on you.  There was no way you could have won that.  Here, let me raise you from the dead and give you a set of underwear, because you just got eaten alive by a dragon or whatever and obviously just lost your awesome tutorial gear and nameless companions."

From what I remember that was pretty much the starting mission in Dragon's Dogma, you and a small party of NPCs hunting down a monster (with no explanation about what the heck is going on or why you're there.)  You finish the fight (don't remember if it was a scripted loss or not) and then... you wake up from your dream and go out into your peaceful village.  Just in time for it to be attacked by a dragon the size of a starship who promptly knocks you down, *explodes* your heart from inside your chest.  And eats it.  While you watch.  Then throws down a challenge to come find it, if you dare.  (Turns out that if a dragon does it, you can totally survive with your heart ripped out.)

Monster Hunter World starts with the expedition that you're part of literally crashing into a lava dragon the size of a kaiju.  There's no question of you even fighting it, escaping alive is actually the tutorial for how to move and target things with your grappling hook.  The magma dragon is presented as an adversary so far beyond your skills at that point that attacking it never even occurs.  To anyone.  It's also pretty obviously set up as the final boss monster of the game, meaning that your motivation is to become strong enough to fight a monster that's five hundred feet tall and made of living LAVA.  Then the game says "But first... go fight these snake-hyena things the size of big dogs.  They're probably closer to your level.  Probably."

[Aldain]

5 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

The games I've experienced that do it also immediately follow it up with an NPC saying "Wow, fate really dumped on you.  There was no way you could have won that.  Here, let me raise you from the dead and give you a set of underwear, because you just got eaten alive by a dragon or whatever and obviously just lost your awesome tutorial gear and nameless companions."

From what I remember that was pretty much the starting mission in Dragon's Dogma, you and a small party of NPCs hunting down a monster (with no explanation about what the heck is going on or why you're there.)  You finish the fight (don't remember if it was a scripted loss or not) and then... you wake up from your dream and go out into your peaceful village.  Just in time for it to be attacked by a dragon the size of a starship who promptly knocks you down, *explodes* your heart from inside your chest.  And eats it.  While you watch.  Then throws down a challenge to come find it, if you dare.  (Turns out that if a dragon does it, you can totally survive with your heart ripped out.)

Monster Hunter World starts with the expedition that you're part of literally crashing into a lava dragon the size of a kaiju.  There's no question of you even fighting it, escaping alive is actually the tutorial for how to move and target things with your grappling hook.  The magma dragon is presented as an adversary so far beyond your skills at that point that attacking it never even occurs.  To anyone.  It's also pretty obviously set up as the final boss monster of the game, meaning that your motivation is to become strong enough to fight a monster that's five hundred feet tall and made of living LAVA.  Then the game says "But first... go fight these snake-hyena things the size of big dogs.  They're probably closer to your level.  Probably."

All great examples of the narrative framing the loss in a positive light, which makes the pointless death to the Lich look even worse.

[EmberStar]

18 minutes ago, Aldain said:

All great examples of the narrative framing the loss in a positive light, which makes the pointless death to the Lich look even worse.

The dragon in Dragon's Dogma is kind of a giant troll, to be honest.

Spoiler

The first time you catch up to him, he hints that there's a reason he did that to you, and it would be *terribly* annoying for him to have to actually kill you.  So he offers you a deal.  You let him devour your best friend, and he'll leave the kingdom in peace.  "So which will it be?  Sacrifice the life of one woman who knows and trusts you?  Or the lives of the hundreds or thousands of people, strangers to you but people nonetheless, who I am most *definitely* going to kill while I'm here?"

 

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, EmberStar said:

The dragon in Dragon's Dogma is kind of a giant troll, to be honest.

  Hide contents

The first time you catch up to him, he hints that there's a reason he did that to you, and it would be *terribly* annoying for him to have to actually kill you.  So he offers you a deal.  You let him devour your best friend, and he'll leave the kingdom in peace.  "So which will it be?  Sacrifice the life of one woman who knows and trusts you?  Or the lives of the hundreds or thousands of people, strangers to you but people nonetheless, who I am most *definitely* going to kill while I'm here?"

 

Man now you've got me wanting to play Dragon's Dogma...again...for the 3rd time this year.

Such a good game that Capcom needs to greenlight a sequel for.

[AreeSoothsayer]

I am a person who hasn't ever not done the lich finisher. Simply because I am racing the Murmurs. People can be upset, I'm fine with that. What I hate is people telling ME to go on a solo mission to deal with my Rank 5 Lich with a Chakkhurr. All they want are Murmurs from the Thralls that spawn. 

 

Tell me the last time you saw a Thrall 1 shot an armored and health heavy warframe. They seem to enjoy mocking someone for being unable to solo a Lich they flat out refuse to fight. That's what I am against. The attitude that people hunting the BOSS should solo and only those hunting the PEONS have the right to pug the map.

[DatDarkOne]

On 2019-11-15 at 2:23 PM, EmberStar said:

The dragon in Dragon's Dogma is kind of a giant troll, to be honest.

  Hide contents

The first time you catch up to him, he hints that there's a reason he did that to you, and it would be *terribly* annoying for him to have to actually kill you.  So he offers you a deal.  You let him devour your best friend, and he'll leave the kingdom in peace.  "So which will it be?  Sacrifice the life of one woman who knows and trusts you?  Or the lives of the hundreds or thousands of people, strangers to you but people nonetheless, who I am most *definitely* going to kill while I'm here?"

 

But he's so good at it.  

On 2019-11-15 at 2:25 PM, Aldain said:

Man now you've got me wanting to play Dragon's Dogma...again...for the 3rd time this year.

Such a good game that Capcom needs to greenlight a sequel for.

Same here.  I've considered it twice this week.  Especially after checking on Alita to see how many rented her.  while I was gone.  

[EmberStar]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

But he's so good at it.  

Same here.  I've considered it twice this week.  Especially after checking on Alita to see how many rented her.  while I was gone.  

Alita was your pawn?  For a second I was trying to think of why someone renting a blu-ray would make any difference.  Then I remembered, "oh yeah, there's an online thing that I never used."

For what little it matters, I happened to like the Battle Angel movie.  Although I think it would have actually been better if they'd cut the ending at "the rats are climbing the pipes" and skipped the "sequel hook" ending.  It's always a little irksome when they do that, plant a big sign saying "We're TOTALLY going to make a sequel."  Mostly because of the many times they *don't* make all the money in the universe and then *don't* make the sequel.  😞

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Alita was your pawn?  For a second I was trying to think of why someone renting a blu-ray would make any difference.  Then I remembered, "oh yeah, there's an online thing that I never used."

For what little it matters, I happened to like the Battle Angel movie.  Although I think it would have actually been better if they'd cut the ending at "the rats are climbing the pipes" and skipped the "sequel hook" ending.  It's always a little irksome when they do that, plant a big sign saying "We're TOTALLY going to make a sequel."  Mostly because of the many times they *don't* make all the money in the universe and then *don't* make the sequel.  😞

Yep.  Alita is my pawn.  She was originally based of the Alita From the manga and later movie.  I did change the hair later, but kept everything else about the same.  😄  

The Battle Angel movie was very nice and stay very close to the manga.

[Blaudari]

There is a reason players won't attack their lich when they spawn as if they don't have the requiem mods that is required equipped they'll level up the Lich so because they avoid attacking it, that probably means they're waiting to know all 3 "Known Requiems" before attempting because even then they have to figure out the combination, if you're gonna blame anyone blame DE for this mess. it's pretty much their fault for players not attacking their lich.

[Highlord83]

Yeah, something needs to be done. And that "something" is get rid of the entire dammed system.  The only people that find this garbage fun are the reddit-dwelling meta spammers and the All Important Digital Fighting Elite *thunder booms, Hot Pockets rain from the sky, Monster cola bubbles up from the earth* that seem to think they're special.

[Highlord83]

On 2019-11-14 at 4:34 PM, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

The fact that there are those who defend this system is simultaneously hilarious and egregious.

 

 

They're what I scornfully call the "Digital Fighting Elite." And in every game they infect, they are the problem.

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, Highlord83 said:

They're what I scornfully call the "Digital Fighting Elite." And in every game they infect, they are the problem.

That title sounds too much like an honor to have.  I prefer Elitist, Keyboard Warriors, TryHards, etc.   Digital Fighting Elite sounds too much like an honorable achievement.  

[Highlord83]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

That title sounds too much like an honor to have.  I prefer Elitist, Keyboard Warriors, TryHards, etc.   Digital Fighting Elite sounds too much like an honorable achievement.  

I prefer my insults to be ironic.  Yup, they're "elite" allright.  In an empty, pointless, useless arena that is a video game meant for entertainment. There is no real work, there is no actual reward, there is not applicable or appreciable skill. They're the best of the best in an arena that one day, with the flip of a switch, will disappear in a pop of digital static and all their "skill" and "status" will count for exactly what it has all along. Nothing.

[Keiyadan]

 

now its fixed 3 downs and lich gone

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Keiyadan