Something needs to be done about players who won't attack their lich

[Lost_Cartographer]

2 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Well, when you continually refuse to fight the lich, that can happen.  There's only a few of them.  Who cares about raising his level?  It's not like he gets harder to kill.

Oh, they do get spongier with each level.  And some of us aren't too keen getting it to rank 5 ASAP (can it go higher?) and facing down level 100-120+ enemies every lich node if we can help it.  Not everyone goes around with META builds and cheeses the hell out of everything.

The fact of the matter is if you try and kill it but fail, things just actively get worse for you with nothing to show for it in return.  That is probably the primary reason people feel discouraged from engaging their lich.

In short, the current system actively encourages "killing" the lich in as few attempts as possible, which is probably NOT what DE intended.

I think the simplest solution would be if no word-mod is equipped in the slot being used, "assassinating" it just chases it away, but nothing is lost or gained.  If a mod IS equipped in the slot you're activating, well, it's either the right one and you get to keep fighting, or it's the wrong one, you get insta-gibbed and the lich levels up as a result.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[TARINunit9]

44 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

What's the big deal about a revive?  Sure, if we were playing four years ago and there were four revives a day, maybe.  But there are four to six revives a mission.

"Bad game design with negligible cost to the player's resources to work around" is still BAD GAME DESIGN

[98Octane]

3 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Doesn't more players in a game allow for more requiem murmurs?  

And isn't WF supposed to be a group game?

you are trying to find logic in forums?? lol

[98Octane]

12 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Oh, they do get spongier with each level.  And some of us aren't too keen getting it to rank 5 ASAP (can it go higher?) and facing down level 100-120+ enemies every lich node if we can help it.  Not everyone goes around with META builds and cheeses the hell out of everything.

The fact of the matter is if you try and kill it but fail, things just actively get worse for you with nothing to show for it in return.  That is probably the primary reason people feel discouraged from engaging their lich.

I think the simplest solution would be if no word-mod is equipped in the slot being used, "assassinating" it just chases it away, but nothing is lost or gained.  If a mod IS equipped in the slot you're activating, well, it's either the right one and you get to keep fighting, or it's the wrong one, you get insta-gibbed and the lich levels up as a result.

agree, i mostly run around now a days with stupid stuff as want to try out new stuff , i guess thats why we have so many weapons , 

On one side they want us to use more variety in weapon and frame selection and then they force us to use meta, and ya its still ok , i am still oneshotting stuff in thrall mission but what about players without GOD tier mods and weapons or rivens..

 

before anyone goes oh use variety build in normal missions, This can be very well fixed just by the following change, make lich thrall missions normal sedna lvl and give specific weapon requirement problem solved, people who want variety builds are happy but then i guess all the guys with just one atterax and ignis build will start crying

[No1NParticular31]

4 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

And isn't WF supposed to be a group game?

No. Warframe is a solo game that you can play with other people. A group game is more like WoW, where the player improves to help his guild/clan progress further and be better even in smaller groups. In Warframe, you jump in a random group, speed through missions so fast you never even notice who is in the group with you and still win even if one or two of the people in the group never kill a single mob because the rest of the group is moving too fast to even notice or care.

I am not even sure why this game has Clans. I am in a fairly large one, and we chat on Discord but I have only ever seen like 2 people from my clan in the game (not counting chat) despite there being LOTS on every day. In most games a Clan works together for a common goal of progression, so in a game like this with no progression, I don't even see a point to it. Maybe Railjack will change that, we shall see.

[George_PPS]

4 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

This is happening more and more often, and it's happened for the fourth game in a row.

The proper scenario is four players are in a game.  A lich appears.  The player attacks the lich and either wins of loses.  The game goes on.  Usually another lich will attack.  That player attacks the lich and either wins or loses.  And so on.

What is happening is now is four players are in a game.  A lich appears.  The player either doesn't have the Requiem mods, hasn't changed them, or "just doesn't know the order."  So he won't attack.  So that specific lich stays in the game the whole time blocking the other players.

Maybe there should be a 30 second to a minute timer for the player to attack and if he doesn't, the lich kills him or just goes away.  This business when one player joins a lich mission but doesn't want to play is selfish and annoying. 

Many veterans/hardcore players are extremely mad about the nuclear-nerfed melee system and are in mass exodus. Who can be there to kill the Liches for newbies? 

[0_The_F00l]

It sometimes happens that I cannot initiate the finisher. 

Has happened to me twice now, 

And once the lich health was grayed out (I know there is a type that has iron skin, mine did not and was having an invulnerable state anyway) 

Also, having a lich seems to increase thrall spawns around it. 

So I keep it alive (if it's survival or exterminate) 

[CuChulainnWD]

3 hours ago, WNxMatthew said:

Yes, let me try all 336 possibilities. Assuming that your lich even shows up in every single lich mission on the map which they wont, I am pretty sure getting some of the mods is shorter than just brute forcing.

You're failing to understand that the others in the group may want to test their mod order, whilst also getting the added benefit of getting more murmur traces by sharing the kills as each lich spawns in. Once you have the first Mod cracked, the rest fall into place quickly. It is much faster than trying to open each murmur individually.

TLDR, the more Lich's everyone gets to fight, the more thralls you get to add to your murmer. It cuts down the time drastically. In less than 2 days, I have killed 2 lich's, Corrupted a third, and started a  fourth, whilst still having a social life doing other things.

[Ein0r]

It will get less worse later on, but right now it is complete dogS#&$. Because people don't have all the mods yet, or multiple copies of all the mods yet.

There is no merit in attacking or killing your lich if you dont have multiple runes to try, or have enough murmurs collected to get the full collection.

 

So why would I attack an opponent that i can't kill, that will kill me and waste a revive (even though i am unlikely to need it), and that gets stronger in the process? If you want to kill your lich, because you have the correct set of mods in place, then you will be doing this solo either way. 

[Akjir]

That's a real problem, because we block others. But besides this, why should I attack the lich, when I have nothing to test or even a clue about a necessary mod? I will die and he get stronger. That isn't fun nor rewarding. The mechanic is silly and others begin to complain about your lich. The more thrall spawning thing? Not needed. I fought my lich Solo or test my mod when I collect other murmur. I don't like this specific part of the kuva lich fight.

[ILOHARTA]

7 hours ago, Grofiteer said:

for when rng eventually decides I'm allowed to kill it or I quit the mission..neither are good options.

It's a forced mechanic that a lot of us don't want to interact with at all..if it's your thing then great, for others it's ruining the game.

you underlined two of the main issues: I hoped for a foe that required skill, not luck, to beat. And to add insult to injury, you are forced into this mess...
Meh.

[WNxMatthew]

6 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

I'm not saying you have to.  You don't want to "brute force 336 combinations" of mods and that's cool.  You do you.  I'm just pointing out that the process you're using is the much slower of the two while you're the one complaining about the speed.

No, I am not worried about speed at all. My main gripe is the problem that you are complaining about but from the opposite side. You are complaining about players not wanting to attack their lich. I am complaining about being pressured or forced to attack their lich by basically holding me hostage in a mission I started.

[S0V3REiGN]

There really is no upside to not trying to find out if the mods you have equipped are right or wrong. The benefits are more Kuva Liches spawn so you get more murmurs, that a lone is a good reason. I have been able to figure out the 3 mods I need before unlocking all 3 with murmurs on two separate occasions (can figure out the order sooner). When you die more planets are available giving you more easy to play missions. Even when you have all its still a 33% chance of getting the first one right, then a 50% next time you try and to get the 2nd mod right is a 50% chance. So you will still die several times.

[WNxMatthew]

4 hours ago, CuChulainnWD said:

You're failing to understand that the others in the group may want to test their mod order, whilst also getting the added benefit of getting more murmur traces by sharing the kills as each lich spawns in. Once you have the first Mod cracked, the rest fall into place quickly. It is much faster than trying to open each murmur individually.

TLDR, the more Lich's everyone gets to fight, the more thralls you get to add to your murmer. It cuts down the time drastically. In less than 2 days, I have killed 2 lich's, Corrupted a third, and started a  fourth, whilst still having a social life doing other things.

Well fine you can play that way but don't force your way of playing onto someone else. I don't tell people how to play. I also don't hold someone's instance hostage because I want to test out my mods. I just want to get through the mission without causing trouble. I didn't want my lich to spawn but they did.

To your TLDR: no the more liches that come through in a map doesn't mean more thrall's. There is some sort of ceiling in the mission. There is not an infinite number that will spawn. I was in another mission with different players that had their liches spawn and the number of thralls that spawn didn't increase when they attacked it. The spawn rate from my perspective seems to be tied to the number of enemies killed. Then the spawn rate dies off once it hits that ceiling.

Either way this needs to be remedied somehow.

[EdinaMonsoon]

what do you mean by blocking other players? does the lich need to be dealt with to finish a defence/interception round?

i've only had my lich appear once and me and my friend ran past it very easily and just headed for extraction on an exterminate

[S0V3REiGN]

8 minutes ago, EdinaMonsoon said:

what do you mean by blocking other players? does the lich need to be dealt with to finish a defence/interception round?

i've only had my lich appear once and me and my friend ran past it very easily and just headed for extraction on an exterminate

A new lich doesn't spawn if there is one active. So if I have the right combination for mine but you refuse to kill your lich (I guess die to is the right word) then mine will not spawn on the map. I had to quit matches because of this.

Edited November 3, 2019 by S0V3REiGN

[WNxMatthew]

2 minutes ago, S0V3REiGN said:

A new lich doesn't spawn if there is one active. So if I have the right combination for mine but you refuse to kill your lich then mine will not spawn on the map. I had to quit matches because of this.

Ah that is what they were asking about. Yeah, I shouldn't have to attack their lich but you should have to quit a match because someone doesn't want to attack their lich.

[Prexades]

What might help is that even an unsuccessful attack on the lich reveals a huge amount of info on the next mods required to defeat him.

[WNxMatthew]

10 minutes ago, Prexades said:

What might help is that even an unsuccessful attack on the lich reveals a huge amount of info on the next mods required to defeat him.

Like an attack on the lich unsuccessfully is equal to many thralls or just outright completes a murmur?

[EdinaMonsoon]

2 hours ago, S0V3REiGN said:

A new lich doesn't spawn if there is one active. So if I have the right combination for mine but you refuse to kill your lich (I guess die to is the right word) then mine will not spawn on the map. I had to quit matches because of this.

oooooh okay, i agree there should be a timer then

[Prexades]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb WNxMatthew:

Like an attack on the lich unsuccessfully is equal to many thralls or just outright completes a murmur?

Depends on changes on the system. Perhaps half a filled murmur knowledge or if the overall progress is increased by DE, fill the meter immediately. But the bonus should only be granted to the one attempting to make the kill, not the rest of the group.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Prexades

[Skiritai]

I switched to solo. Encountered this too often.

[Gurpgork]

Is there any benefit to making the lich stronger? If not, then I feel like there really should be. Like Kuva weapons getting more powerful bonuses the higher level the lich is, or something like that. That might make losing to them less of a feels bad moment. 

[Luciole77]

play alone against lich is a lot better rewarding!

[DatDarkOne]

4 minutes ago, Luciole77 said:

play alone against lich is a lot better rewarding!

This is what I've been thinking also.