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The HUGE Zenistar nerf

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12 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Higher levels aren't going to give us difficulty. We as players have so many options, combinations and scaling power that no matter the obstacle or level thrown at us, we have solutions that trivialize it. Leveling enemies up will prove more challenging to some players, but for many others it's just the difference of clicking a button twice instead of once.

Options for fixing this intrinsic problem are any or all of three:

  • Have mechanics that disable or block players' overwhelming power (Nullies, Status immunity etc.)
  • Nerf the powers that trivialize gameplay to the point where they don't trivialize gameplay
  • Make enemies smarter, faster, more capable etc. to the point where failing a mission is a very real possibility.

Yes...

(1) "Have mechanics that disable or block players' overwhelming power (Nullies, Status immunity etc.)"

--> Make a Warframe than make players play without it... That makes no sense at all. This is Resident Evil or Warframe? Balance is key, not putting the damn frame in a wheelchair and call it gameplay balance. If you can't balance you game to sustain an ability you created (to be used in the game) why bother at all to add such ability in the first place? Disabling the player is a dumb down solution to a problem they created that offers nothing but annoyance. And If you continually "disable" frames you simple shift the meta to Armor or HP only, trivializing any ability dependent frame in the game - something already in action for some. 

(2) "Nerf the powers that trivialize gameplay to the point where they don't trivialize gameplay"

--> So... make useless weapons (with huge reload times and small magazines) and frames that nobody cares about. Well... MR fodders are what? 90-95% of the whole game (maybe a bit less now that melee has changed)? They are already doing this and expanding even for some unique concepts like Zenistar. Look at the mess that "nerf the powers that trivialize gameplay" AKA "all the meta melee builds" in Warframe did to the whole meta... Now there is one build - for everything. And is 30x worst than before (OP and boring). They broke melee so hard that you can't even dismount properly of archwings anymore.

(3) "Make enemies smarter, faster, more capable etc. to the point where failing a mission is a very real possibility."

--> AI. Something nonexistent in Warframe... Octavia is the master of the broken AI in Warframe since she can go invisible and through the mallet output AoE. Using her for some hours you can see all the problems that the poor AI suffers: nullifiers stuck in a loop regenerating the bubble and invincible to damage; stuck AI everywhere because they can react to invisible stuff; stuck AI after get cover; etc., etc.. This is one of the few options to turn the game more challenging. You first two "options" are what they are doing to ruin the gameplay since Update 15.20.

And just a note: for "we players" (as a statement for the "majority" of players) higher levels ARE difficult. I know so many people that can't handle the first stage of the Kuva Lich while i can steamroll the whole thing in level 5. Hardcore players with all the builds and weapons (and knowledge) ready to trivialize all the content (that you called "we") are not the majority in game - and the game can't be made or modified for them alone. How many hours do you think that in average a person play a game, or even play games per week?

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14 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Obviously polearms and are you really going to try and argue the range on them wasn't pretty stupid?  Cause it kindof was.  With a riven mine had more range than some guns.  There's a lot better variety in terms of usable weapons and more build variety now.  Not a terrible price to pay.

i didn't even like Polearms. they were pretty uninteresting but was the tool of choice for compensating for when the game cheated. compensated better than Whips, for that matter.

Range was already halfway to 'whatever' anyways, since LoS restrictions meant and means that Enemies will just not get hit at times when you need to hit them. game couldn't even have the decency to make like the first 25% of Melee Range ignore Terrain to make sure that things that are close enough that you should definitely be able to hit them would hit consistently. not even that decency.

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This was a nerf and a bad one. I don't normally post, but this is bad.

I would refer to myself as an endurance player.  At least once a week my friends and I will do a 3 or 4 hour MOT run.  There is no way any Warframe would be able run out into a crowd of level 4,000 or 5,000s and build up a comb counter make it back and throw the zenistar.  So what essentially [DE] has done is removed one of the few if not the only endurance melee weapons in the game. 

Many have said that the zenistar was perhaps a little over powered in main content of the game. For the purposes of argument let's assume that is the case.  So why not nerf the damage and the mechanic.  In a normal end game run the zenistar does not provide damage, what it provides are status proc's. Nerf the damage to nothing and I wouldn't care, leave the proc.  Sure we can provide the required element (radiation in most cases) on another weapon, but that's not a fair solution. Not only have you removed melee, now you've forced me to build one of my other weapons to make up for it.

Perhaps a solution: Create mod that would remove almost all of the zenistar's damage, but would leave the status effects. In exchange it would provide the zenistar with a base comb counter that would allow the zenistar do its thing for the original 45 seconds.  The mod would be useless to the 98% of the player base. Then [DE] can finally say they actually did something for the other 2% of us.

--> The mod could be called 'old school' and have the photo of an old man chasing kids off his lawn.

In all honesty though if this nerf stays as is, I would like the option to delete the zenistar so I can at least get an empty weapon slot for my 100 days of login in.

Edited by (PS4)RustyAngel
I have fat fingers and small phone screen.
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Yeah but you can get crits like this now, using a build with one under mods, and no riven. You can also 1 hit an r5 lich to bended knee through his shield. It's a shame I was not recording I had a 19 million red crit earlier. This is just an average crit screenshot.Warframe2274.jpg?width=1025&height=577

I miss endless play and the Zenistar on occasion,  but I rarely witnessed folks using the Zenistar.

Edited by Nichivo
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13 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

this is why I stopped spending money on this game

I pay for something, then they break it and it's: too bad for you

 

+1 Same here. Haven't bought anything for over a year. Vote with your Wallet.

I played both Path of Exile and Warframe since 2013 and when I went back to Path I realized I hadn't spent much on the game due to it's seasonal play nature and was so impressed by how well they continue to keep veterans happy while also being very punctual with leagues updates and support tickets I just decided to drop $400. 

I wanted to split some of the points with a family member and their Support Staff responded to me in 2 hours.... Yea, GG Warframe.

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14 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

this is why I stopped spending money on this game

I pay for something, then they break it and it's: too bad for you

I greatly, humbly, sadly and emphatically agree with you.

I won't be spending any more money on this game until they revert these changes.  I spent too much time, endo, plat, ducats, etc. to make this weapon be the heart of how I choose to play - SOLO and Ivara Stealth. 

No, I don't cheat with this weapon and I take issue with the assumption that EVERYONE plays AFK, thinking somehow, I'M cheating - well, this is what I did with Zenistar:

- I use it to help me reduce the chance of getting my abilities whacked by nullifiers (Ivara/stealth)

- Blanket an area with protection like excavators, while I attack the approaching mobs with pri/sec weapons

Until someone at DE explains why and how they are going to remediate this, I won't spend ONE MORE DOLLAR, PERIOD.

I don't think I will ever trust DE to just leave things WELL ENOUGH ALONE.

HOW ABOUT JUST FIXING THE PROBLEMS WITH THE ABUSERS, RATHER THEN PENALIZING THE ENTIRE ZENISTAR USER BASE. 

I don't think I'll take the chance of investing the time, energy and MONEY in grinding away to make a weapon or 'frame the way I LIKE IT, just to have DE arbitrarily WHACK it with the Nerf Stick and BOOM - Instant Uselessness.  No way, never again.

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55 minutes ago, (XB1)ChewyAM said:

I greatly, humbly, sadly and emphatically agree with you.

I won't be spending any more money on this game until they revert these changes.  I spent too much time, endo, plat, ducats, etc. to make this weapon be the heart of how I choose to play - SOLO and Ivara Stealth. 

No, I don't cheat with this weapon and I take issue with the assumption that EVERYONE plays AFK, thinking somehow, I'M cheating - well, this is what I did with Zenistar:

- I use it to help me reduce the chance of getting my abilities whacked by nullifiers (Ivara/stealth)

- Blanket an area with protection like excavators, while I attack the approaching mobs with pri/sec weapons

Until someone at DE explains why and how they are going to remediate this, I won't spend ONE MORE DOLLAR, PERIOD.

I don't think I will ever trust DE to just leave things WELL ENOUGH ALONE.

HOW ABOUT JUST FIXING THE PROBLEMS WITH THE ABUSERS, RATHER THEN PENALIZING THE ENTIRE ZENISTAR USER BASE. 

I don't think I'll take the chance of investing the time, energy and MONEY in grinding away to make a weapon or 'frame the way I LIKE IT, just to have DE arbitrarily WHACK it with the Nerf Stick and BOOM - Instant Uselessness.  No way, never again.

I would relax in Mot with Ivara a miter, furis, and balla, and the thing I really do not understand, other than the zenistar nerf(which makes no sense) why cripple dagger play before Ivara prime gets released? Ivara with a hammer, or fist weapon, I feel so stealthy now(disgust or sarcasm you choose). Finisher damage on daggers, even with a choice riven, is why you see me with a hammer in that screen shot, on page 7.

Edited by Nichivo
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6 hours ago, dreadgame said:

how badly was the range nerfed on the disk?

 

 

Disc was a base radius of 4m. Since Primed Reach was changed from 165% to +3m. It went from 10.6m to 7m.
Pretty easy to do the math on that unlike some melee since it's a radial distance.

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I see a lot of people that are mad because they don't have the zenistar...How about rather than forcing the way you want to play onto us you let people use what weapons they want...

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On 2019-11-08 at 10:14 AM, GrimSinner said:

I was one of those who had to wait 300 login days to finally get my Zenistar.  After working to forma and mod the Zenistar, it became so fun to play and served it's purpose well as a extra layer of protection over defense points, CC'ing high level enemies in longer runs, holding an interception point when going solo, strategically locking down a hallway or choke point, etc.  It helped on teams but it was especially helpful when playing solo missions that would require an extra player otherwise.  It was the one weapon with a unique, fun mechanic that was a delight to play and find useful tactics for deploying the disk.  Not anymore, it's broken, in a bad way.

By the time I build up enough combo to get decent disk time, the mission or wave is over.  If I have enough combo, it freaking resets before the next wave starts, forcing me to use Naramon/Drifting Contact when I need a different focus school.  If I throw the disk in a bad spot, my combo is gone so recalling it to reposition is worthless.  While the disk is out, my Zenistar does not build combo counter when I'm using the weapon as melee which is just dumb.  But ultimately, the mechanic that made the Zenistar a great login milestone weapon is ruined.

A login weapon you wait 300 days to get should be an EXCEPTIONAL weapon and not this nerfed into the ground garbage it is today.  Had I known DE was going to do this, I would have chosen the Zenith instead because it's about the only useful login weapon left now, but nowhere near as useful as the pre-nerf Zenistar.

The "Nerf" and "Cancel Fun" culture in the name of balancing (or destroying in the case of Zenistar) is getting ridiculous.  Just stop already.  Some things should just be left alone.

Thank you sir for the actual knowledge bomb..."if we dont like it your cant have it" people like that need to go find a hobby

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Was looking forward to purchasing Ivara Prime but I'm prepared to cut off my nose etc and not purchase another thing. This nerf was sneaky and unnecessary. Oh, and by the way DE, will you refund the money I spent shelling out for a Riven for the damn thing?              No............didn't think so.

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On 2019-11-20 at 12:04 PM, peterc3 said:

Given the terms in the ToS you agree to when making the account, they are actually 100% justified in doing so.

80% of the fun you had in the game was having something kill things outside of you doing anything. 80% of your fun wasn't actually engaging with the game. 80% of your fun was detrimental to the overall game and was dealt with.

I have a really hard time understanding the combo multiply because people are slide melee'ing and can clear a room in one swing with the top tier weapons. How is the Zenistar supposed to compete against that? Took me 360ish days OF PLAYING THE OVERALL GAME to get mine. Detrimental? Like meta? Like 1 shotting everything(boring)? Thats all there is left, if thats fun for players these days "EZ buttons". 

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20 hours ago, Nichivo said:

I would relax in Mot with Ivara a miter, furis, and balla, and the thing I really do not understand, other than the zenistar nerf(which makes no sense) why cripple dagger play before Ivara prime gets released? Ivara with a hammer, or fist weapon, I feel so stealthy now(disgust or sarcasm you choose). Finisher damage on daggers, even with a choice riven, is why you see me with a hammer in that screen shot, on page 7.

Ughhhh....I couldn't get past the Zenistar issue and haven't (won't/can't) play further.  I had no idea DE nerfed finisher damage on daggers too.  

Ok, so it may be that they don't want to have players use Ivara stealth as effectively as she has been?  Can that be right?  This would now start killing the way I level melee weapons with Ivara, too.

Sheesh...I'm starting to see why a lot of veteran streaming have been jumping ship.  Wow.  What a shame, DE.  I loved your streams, your story and your game.  

Well, if this is the way things are going to be, than, DE, I'm done. 

I couldn't care less about any new content, because you're demonstrating that you reserve the right to totally kill anything at your will, without a reason, just "because".  So what's the point of getting to use the newer stuff, if you can just cripple it later, for some other "game balancing" excuse?

This is just not right...I'm sorry, but that's just plain wrong.

BTW:  I know DESteve and DEReb were busy today (and most possibly, the greater majority of the DE teams).  I get that I'm only one person out of a million that were on your streams today.  I was watching the twitch and mixer streams from DE today and there were quite a few people asking for an official response/stance/declaration about the Zenistar.  Steve, in a very short few words said that "Zenistar?...we might have to look into that" (or something to that effect; I'm paraphrasing).  I don't remember what Reb said right after that, but from what I can remember, it was short and it came across as very reductive, as if it wasn't a big issue. 

Allow me to be clear - To the Zenistar users (legitimate, nonAFK players): IT IS A BIG ISSUE.  If my recollection is wrong, I will offer my apologies in advance.  I will state however that SOMETHING more substantive should have been stated.  Just my opinion.

Please communicate with the community, address and identify the myriad of issues communicated to YOU in the forums and fix the Zenistar issue, one way or another.

Just don't ignore us....please.

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On 2019-11-20 at 1:04 PM, peterc3 said:

Given the terms in the ToS you agree to when making the account, they are actually 100% justified in doing so.

On the surface, you are absolutely right; that is the letter of the "law". 

I would submit to you this, however: is it the RIGHT thing to do?  That would be the "spirit" of the law and DE violates that spirit (and trust), every time they do something like this.

DE trusts the users not to ABUSE the system and create concepts of play to utilize, each with it's own design intent. 

The Zenistar was made available for use in September 2016 and it's design intent was to launch the disc to create an AoE and provides a level of CC for 45 seconds.  One could argue the legitimacy of this, but not the design; it did what it did and that's how DE made this weapon. 

For more than 3 years, this weapon has been untouched.  People created whole playing styles and methods of play based on this criteria.  Now, it is broken for people who used it with a stealthy build (Ivara).  Try to build your melee counter high enough before launching the disc WITHOUT breaking stealth.  Absolutely ridiculous, if at all possible.

ToS or not, IMHO, they SHOULD go after the abusers of anything in the game.  Cheaters hurt the community and perhaps, this is an example of what DE is trying to do.

However, there are better and more effective ways to reach that goal, without pissing off the majority of users that DO NOT abuse the game.

DE is always trying to see the forest, but when things like this occur, you burn down the trees.

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This was a very counter-intuitive change IMO. To their credit they did return the "hold E" mechanic, but not with a toggle unfortunately (for those players that liked the new alt fire mechanic).

I could have ignored this change, in fact, had I not received this weapon as a log in reward I would have likely ignored the entire change and kept playing. I didnt like the Gunblade and Glaive changes, but I accepted those.

This weapon, however, is a loyalty reward. A loyalty reward that was broken, seemingly on purpose. That is pretty brutal. And that one move changed my entire image of this game.

I still feel this is one of the best games on the market today, but I find it almost impossible to log in. Mainly due to the fact that ANYTHING can be completely broken at any time...and I despise games like that. 

I no longer feel like this game deserves my money. I want to feel that way, and perhaps if I step away from the game for a while that feeling will return, but for now it is gone. A bit dramatic I admit over one single weapon change, but it is a feeling I can't shake.

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DE couldn't care less about us minnows leaving or not spending as it's a drop in the ocean to them. Well, some of us have principles, unlike DE. Very disappointed!

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Yeah, I'm one of those "I don't melee" guys. I liked Zenistar because I could mod it for 100% status chance on the disc, add in corrosive and blast, toss on a +range riven, and toss the disc on any mobile defense objective, stationary defense target, or inception waypoint and be absolutely sure that nothing would come off their knees long enough to so much as lay a lick on the objective. It could lock down a set area from *any* enemy encroachment and engage in plentiful amounts of armor stripping as an added bonus. On top of that, I was free to roam a bit and engage in all the gunplay I wanted. Now? I have to stay almost stationary and toss the disc *constantly* to get the same effect. It just doesn't fill the same role as it did previously in my playstyle. And, honestly, *nothing* fills that role. And I like the bang-bang too much to go slashy-slashy. So...

Now I don't equip a melee.

Sure, I have *something* there. But it's pretty much only there to make me look awesome. I'll probably never get a melee kill in this game again. Because I just don't care about melee.

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alright i have found a loop hole to this guys! idk if anyone else has found this out but here goes nothing!

 

Relentless Combination in zeni and use Garuda with close to 100% slash with her 4th. this will build up the combo fast af lmao and throw the disc out again and boom its there for 120 sec :P

 

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10 hours ago, (PS4)Cracked_Memory said:

Please get cancer. 😊

I'm a cancer survivor.  It's not fun.  I wouldn't even wish it on you or anyone else.  

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On 2019-11-24 at 7:36 AM, (XB1)Hoppy The Ghost said:

alright i have found a loop hole to this guys! idk if anyone else has found this out but here goes nothing!

 

Relentless Combination in zeni and use Garuda with close to 100% slash with her 4th. this will build up the combo fast af lmao and throw the disc out again and boom its there for 120 sec :P

 

Then it hits an invisible wall and bounces to God knows where! Great! Wait guys just lemme rack up those combos again aaanndd it hits another invisible wall! 

Not gonna lie this irritated me to no end when the disk hits something unintended, then I had to find more enemies so I can build up the counter again.

Its clunky now. There are ways to make it usable but the nerf was just too much to give justice to a weapon like Zenistar.

Edited by H.Katsura_999

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On 2019-11-24 at 1:09 AM, (PS4)Cracked_Memory said:

Please get cancer. 😊

Whoa no cancer pls. I think this is just an oversight from DE since they have a lot on their plate with updates and all.

That, and they want to have us use melee weapons more to iron out bugs with melee 3.0.

No cancer k?

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It was a terrible idea to nerf this weapon. Squishy frames now have no melee choice... shame

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