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The HUGE Zenistar nerf


Zelmen
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Am 24.11.2019 um 04:29 schrieb GrimSinner:

I'm a cancer survivor.  It's not fun.  I wouldn't even wish it on you or anyone else.  

So am I. This is exactly why I wish it to obnoxious a**holes. They should suffer. That may teach them a lesson. Well, unless they live in Murica, where there is a good chance that they can't afford proper treatment.

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I've posted elsewhere on this topic, but I'll give my two cents here as well.

Like many of the players in this thread, I'm disappointed with the Zenistar changes.

Corrupt Charge helps, since it boosts the initial combo counter, which in turn directly affects the base hang-time for the Zenistar's disc. BUT (1) it still doesn't automatically get you to what the hang-time used to be, and (2) it costs you a mod slot. Also, if memory serves, Corrupt Charge is not one of those mods that just falls in your lap.

It's true that you can build up your combo counter to get the disc's hang-time up to (and maybe beyond?) 120 seconds. And that's pretty cool. But I'd rather have things the way they were. 

I admit, these changes forced me to explore new ways of using the Zenistar, and I can't deny that I had a bit of fun doing that. But at the end of the day, I still feel that despite my best efforts to simply adjust and deal with the new mechanics, I very much preferred the Zenistar as it was. It was great for crowd control, especially with the help of Ivara's Navigator, and I'd rather have to re-throw it after 40 seconds or so (as was the case before these changes) than have to build up my combo counter to get that effect - or even to get 120 seconds of hang-time. The new benefits are outweighed by the costs, for me.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Using Relentless Combination and True Punishment and then using (Primed) Reach and (Primed) Fury, running 4 60/60 mods. Which the Zenistar would have 100% status chance and when you melee a target you would gain 4 combo counter due to [Relentless Combination applying to melee hitting target] + [True Punishment applying 100% chance for additional combo counter on melee hitting target] + [True Punishment applying 100% chance for additional combo counter on Relentless combination effect].

Then every time a slash proc ticks on a target you gain 2 combo counter due to [Relentless Combination applying to melee hitting target] + [True Punishment applying 100% chance for additional combo counter on Relentless combination effect].

So hitting a target once with Zenistar and letting the slash proc on them end would give you combo counter of 18.

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pre melee changes Gas Zenistar was a good tool for long runs (and made Corpus survival bareable, because it wrecked nullies bubbles)

now it can't be used that way anymore. It's still somehow useable with Vauban vortex or Khora 2nd power, etc : group ennemies to build combo meter, then throw the disc in the crowd, but even then you have better options.

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Quote

Here's how to use this post-nerf:

- Equip Body count

- Build up 10x combo

- Launch your disc, which should last a couple minutes

- Your combo is now 0

- The disc doesn't kill anything since you're doing that yourself to build up combo for the next disc

- The disc is useless

- Shove the disc way up your ass

- Use another melee

Thx a ton DE, great Christmas present, much appreciated 😄 

Edited by ax1m
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I always thought this weapon was a fun-to-use gimmick stick that wasn't completely useless, but not to be taken seriously in any general meta sense unless you're doing something super specific.

I didn't realise it received a nerf until I used it today, and my immediate reaction was that of confusion.

What is the rational behind this change? because it makes zero sense right now.

Edited by XarKavier
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On 2019-12-30 at 8:50 AM, NigglesAU said:

Just grabbed it from day 300 reward. Whats most effective way to use it now?maybe i should have grabbed sigma and octantis instead

Zenurik Inner Might + Focus Energy + Seismic Wave.

Combo Up -> Throw -> Combo some + Heavy Slams

 

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Yeah I've been trying my hardest to make this new Zenistar work, but the way you have to use it now just doesn't feel fun or worth it, with the main problem steaming from the massive nerf to the disks base duration, you now have to spend quite a bit of time building a combo counter, when you used to be able to just throw it out and go about killing things with your other weapons while the disk watched your back or held down a hallway/doorway. It was honestly the only melee weapon I liked, a great little support tool that now feels like its been neutered. 

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The problem with the new Zenistar is the heavy attack build constantly throws and recalls the disk.  First heavy attack throws the disk, next heavy attack recalls the disk again which makes the disk worthless. 

You are forced to make a standard build and try to build combo to use the disk, or build for heavy attack and forget about the disk, except for the initial combo you get out of heavy attack build, which is still pathetic disk time.  

The Zenistar needs a separate disk deploy keybind now instead of deployed/recall on heavy attack, but we don't have that option.  

I believe DE's intention was to kill off the Zenistar altogether so the majority of players would stop using it.  Normally I wouldn't care, but since this was a 300 day login reward that got turned into a paperweight, I feel robbed.

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Man I miss the original zenistar. It's a reward for being a loyal player. Why would they take our incentive away. We earned it by playing their game for a good amount of time. Now they just turned it into something that's almost pointless. I just noticed the change today. Tried some cryotic grinding with frost. Havent touched my frost loadout in ages. If they are going to make the duration almost non existent they could at least make the act of sending it out take no time at all.

Edited by Melomaniak
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  • 3 weeks later...

GIve it atleast 40 seconds when you throw the disc and then you can build up timer up to 2 mins when you whack stuff with zenistar itself.

Also i want my Gas zeni + Ivara Navigator combo back! Was actually fun to fly around and do nice damage and it was pretty original way to kill stuff, also made ivara actually useful for defense missions.

Give Zenistart back DE!            BabyRage

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  • 2 weeks later...

bump.

And my two-cents: This weapon was never overpowered unless you were running low level missions. This was my favorite melee weapon to switch to when i felt like soloing something and needed something to have my back, and now it's practically useless. I hate using specters, they're more annoying than anything (to me, of course they are useful to some people).

 

Anyone who thought Zenistar was overpowered should also be calling for a nerf the 4th abilities of half the frames in the game; especially Saryn and Revenant.

P.S. please don't nerf my Revenant, I love it.

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I do like the notion of the disk scaling off of Heavy Attacks, but the base duration being cratered so hard makes it very, very painful to use outside of situations where you can easily generate a sizable amount of combo independently of your melee weapon (Amalgam mod for this when?). Some possible mechanics to use:

  1. Gaining combo extends duration, follow-up heavies reduce based on combo efficiency.
  2. Remove any combo scaling from disk, recall releases blast based on remaining duration and current combo.
  3. Have the disk scale in punch through with the combo counter, for both the projectile and AoE.

Generally, I want it to go well with alternate combo generation, but still have use without it at the cost of being best off with seriously unusual build and playstyle considerations. Whatever the case, it should be fine with throwing the disk out without having a high combo-counter, even if it's somewhat poor like a 20 second baseline duration. The thing's mostly for applying Status procs, so taking half a second to re-apply the disk isn't going to be a serious problem.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2019-11-05 at 5:32 PM, Xzorn said:

 

DE's current approach is a never ending cycle that causes toxicity and negativity among it's community.

 

Agreed.

IMHO, a LOT of toxicity is initiated by DE (among other things) when they arbitrarily nerf something without community feedback and/or discussion.  I fully understand the round-and-round argument of "it's a Free To Play game...they can do what they want....you're a baby...git gud...etc." - all of which dismissive rubbish and never address the core problems that are brought up here.  

People pay for things (maybe not everyone, but some) like forma (sometimes) and put in the time to make weapons better (ALWAYS the biggest hidden cost).  The Zenistar is not the first weapon to be nerfed, but since it's debut September 2016, it has not been modified until December 2019 (afaik).  Suddenly, the nerf came HARD and WHAM - anyone who played SOLO with Ivara in stealth mode could no longer rely on using this weapon for it's disc, period.  I can't build up the combo counter sufficiently in stealth mode to make the disc last any decent amount of time without breaking stealth, rendering this play style killed.

Here's the toxic part: other than a very quick 4 sec response to a question from Steve to Rebecca on a stream (I think it was during Primetime) in December (I think), DE hasn't acknowledged ANYTHING about this nerf; no rationale or reason as to WHY (I could be mistaken, but I've watched MOST streams since the nerf, read the forums and NADA, nor can I find revision or patch notes on this, but again, I could be wrong).  If you are making a drastic change like this, why wouldn't you want to discuss this before and AFTER the change with your users in an adult and transparent manner?

As stated, I've watched most streams since this nerf and I can state that on every single stream, I have asked multiple times per stream to have the discussion OR pleaded for a STATEMENT as to why - just a simple statement for crying out loud!  I know that there are a BAZILLION people chatting and I know it's difficult to acknowledge one person, but since December there have been about 36 or so streams that I've watched.  You would think that SOMEONE FROM DE would have mentioned SOMETHING on this topic.  Between all the forum posts and stream chats, SOMEONE FROM DE should have seen this topic and addressed it.  Heck, I wrote a constructive note in Steve's survey in December - still nothing.  Again, I know I'm only one person in a sea of thousands, but look at the forums and search for Zenistar.  It doesn't take a genius to recognize a problem with this nerf, yet still NO OFFICIAL RESPONSE - RADIO SILENCE - WHY DE?

DE:  How about you create a dedicated forum that solely discusses nerfs/buffs, so that you can proactively take a pulse as to what changes could be of benefit or detriment to the community and simultaneously get near realtime feedback on these things?  You know, a place where we can ALL participate and have a say in nerfs/buffs to warframe.  I think this could prevent a lot of the toxicity coming from you before it infects the community at large.  How about a stream or part of a stream (like on the Dev stream) where you can solely discuss nerfs/buffs with a live audience and we can ALL SEE the feedback, in front of everyone?  Knowing that Rebecca likes to utilize excel spreadsheets, maybe create some charts/graphs with a list of nerfs/buffs and the community responses?  This would provide the needed clarity and transparency that is currently lacking on these types of changes, perhaps even stopping FIRES before they even start!

Understanding that Ivara Stealth and Zenistar disc play is broken and that there has been ZERO acknowledgement from DE (also suffering through some other nerfs in the past but never affecting me to this extent), I made the decision to not spend one more dollar on warframe, be it plat, fashion frame or TennoCon until DE talks about it and/or fixes it.  Also, further understanding that DE has broken my absolute favorite game play style, I can't play the way I've played and therefore I stopped playing since December 2019.  Not only have you taken a big fun factor away from me, but my time in efficiently playing most missions has been obliterated (Solo Console Player Here).

Simply put, if DE doesn't care to talk about this, I don't care about playing your game anymore.  It pains me to say that, since I haven't put this game down since 2014, playing (mostly) every single day since then.  I just can't take the time to invest in leveling and farming for things, only for DE to completely destroy my investment without even a simple explanation or justification - that's a slap in the face - I just don't trust you anymore, DE...sorry!

Toxicity or negativity and conversely, positivity always starts at the top.  Hopefully, they'll change the way they do these things.  I am not hopeful, though.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

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