The HUGE Zenistar nerf

[Andele3025]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Ragology said:

I've read that the disc gets higher duration if you build the combo meter before throwing it now. This ruins the stealth ivara builds that relied on the disk, or people who didn't really melee but appreciated the zenistar disks. I also read that  the disks effective range was cut in half, and that since recalling the disk to reposition it is also on the heavy attack button, it will empty your combo meter.

Stealth ivara zenistar was murdered back when they nerfed navigator to not pause projectiles.
Tho if going for combo instead of corrupt charge 18 second setups now, using focused energy+zenurik (or focused energy+Reflex coil) means your combo wont really go down much.

[Citan666]

I'll have to back this thread.

This is a HUGE loss. 

I'm often using frames with primary and secondary weapons because I'm not that much interested in melee, YET I do love having some reliable, durable crowd control / trash killer for frames that lack some heavy damage but can synergize with (*cough* Vauban / Nyx *cough*) or frames that have damage but lack hard lockdown abilities (Ember / Ash / Loki to quote a few right out of my head). 

Zenistar was a great asset for that, because it only required minimum management, once every 40 sec. 

Now most of the time its effective duration will be <10 sec AND its effective range from what I saw seem also to have been reduced. Which can translate as "I wasted several hundreds plats on a mod for a weapon that is now little over tier 1 trash". 

This was seriously NOT a good idea. Not necessarily in essence (I get you want to reward players actively slicing / smashing in melee) but in execution (10 sec is simply unusable).

I'll heartily suggest the following.

- Base duration at the very least 30 sec (original 40 sec would be nice).

- Base range close to the original if it was reduced (not sure about that) 

- Make each combo level buff the next "cast" in the following way...
   * throwing time reduced by 5% (so the guy patient enough to reach combo level 10 would set it up in 1 sec because time/(5%*10)).
   * range increased by 5% (so 50% increased range at tier 10)
   * duration increased by 5 sec (so 50 more seconds)?

- Make "early recall" give back a portion of the combo multiplier, like depending on remaining duration, but with a hard cap of 2 (to avoid abuse).

THIS would make it stay efficient and relevant for all styles while rewarding people who actually use Zenistar for actual melee attacks too.

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Citan666

[Morthal]

Meanwhile glaive toss is both heavy attack and charge attack, depending on secondary being equipped.

[Xzorn]

What they did to Zenistar was criminal.

It doesn't matter how fast we build combo. Having to hit with the weapon itself destroys it. It's unique nature and synergy was amazing and it was a true asset to builds and theory crafting. What they did was essentially like forcing players to use primary fire on guns in order to use the alt-fire. What's that? You only like the alt-fire? Too bad.

Just stupid.

[Holo]

The Zenistar was never truly a combo based melee weapon. While its usable as a combo weapon, was before melee 3.0 and is still now, it never seemed like it was intended to work in that way. From what I can tell the weapon was always a weapon that you toss then use primaries and secondaries to augment the power of it -- to synergize with it. Yes, you can make the argument that its too powerful in low levels but the argument falls apart when we have weapons like the Pyrana and frames like Saryn and Equinox. 

The Zenistar was a melee weapon but it wasn't really a melee weapon. The Zenistar made running solo content bearable since you could control spawns and deal with enemies as they moved into choke points without the issue of teammates getting in the way. The current iteration of the Zeni essentially makes the Zeni a useless weapon when going into long survivals, especially when it was one of the only melee that could do that. You can argue that being the only melee that could do that is over powered, but realistically, hugging level 4k+ enemies is not a strategy that can be sustained on the majority of frames. The very fact that melee weapons are melee weapons is enough to keep them off the center stage for extreme level content. Prior to this change the only weapons that could truly do this content were gunblades and the Zeni. And again this is NOT an argument that these were too powerful, it is simply the case with melee that high levels cannot be sustained with a melee only build period.

The current zenistar gets players killed and is unrealistic to run the zenistar in any capacity comparatively to before.

Pre-note:

The Zenistar was not op. The Zenistar is not op. It was an alternative play style than most other melees. It gave players a viable option to use melee in a mission without subjecting themselves to instant death by face tanking a bombard shell that does surplus of 1million damage. Even beside this, it gave players a general alternative to using melee by setting up a zone every 45s for CC, stripping, or debuffing purposes. This was powerful but the zenistar never made the difference on whether a player was able to get far in a endless mission or not.

All enemies up to level 200ish are ridiculously easy to kill with nearly any weapon in the game, zenistar included. The levels which truly matter to show the balance of the game on the other hand seem to be disregarded and players bringing them up being called 'elitists' or whatever the new buzzword is now. By no means am I commenting about the ability or inability for players to get to high levels. I simply wish for the Zenistar, which is a personal favorite of mine, to be in a usable state where I dont have to go out of my way to spec into it to use it properly.

Issues:

-Combo on Zenistar

-Unneeded added requirements to using the weapon

-Inability to do endgame content with the current melee 3.0 system

 

Survivals/Endgame content:

While 'endgame content' is highly debated, most games handle this content as progressively harder content. While that is by no means a universal definition, it definitely can be seen as a trend in the gaming industry as a whole. Warframe, while many consider it to have no true endgame content, does have this content. Even though it may not be number 1 priority on DE (more like 500th) it does exist. It lives in the form of long endless missions. During these long endless missions the player gets to see extreme level content ranging from 2k-9.999k. By the current damage scaling from enemies along with health scaling, around the 800-1200 level mark the scaling starts to become exponential. Around the 3-4k level mark enemies will 1 hit every single frame in our arsenal (beside invuln frames yes). Now imagine as a volt who is flimsy even at level 200 trying to go into a level 4k survival with a melee weapon. A AOE hit will knock you down so hard you cant get back up. The zenistar provided an alternative. 

Without having to heavily spec into melee builds such as naramon or intense 10+status proccing builds many used with weapons like the redeemer for the 1.6^10 damage buffs, the player was given a melee weapon that was usable as a CC weapon, a debuff weapon, stripping weapon, or even a damage weapon with the correct spec. It provided an alternative to melee that allowed people to still utilize a weapon slot but not be completely useless like they would with nearly any other melee weapon. This was a net benefit for endgame players and for people dipping their toes into the harder content to give them a spot to fall back on in case they were ever in danger. It was powerful yes, but it never was the single weapon that determined if a player could go to level 4k (looking at you redeemer).

Yes, the zeni was strong. But now the zeni is useless at extreme levels. With 99% of frames you cannot toss yourself into the fray of battle to get a combo counter of 7,8,10,or 12x. But currently this is how the zeni is setup if you want the disk to be anything useful.

 

Combo + Unneeded melee spec for zenistar:

Currently, as the zenistar requires a decent combo counter for its disk to be of any reasonable duration, it requires the player to spec around the weapon rather than speccing with the weapon. No longer is the battle about synergizing it is about building around that one melee mechanic. I may be wrong but from what I understood about melee 3.0 is that it was trying to reduce that speccing around melee weapons. No longer would you have to run a equinox with naramon and a polearm to get maximum damage in a mission-- you could run primaries, secondaries, melees, and the damage/kill rate wouldnt be too far seperated for each. But this goal of melee 3.0 seems to have been lost on the zenistar. To properly run this in a survival, especially with limited spawns, you are nearly required to run naramon and/or a combo duration mod. Adding that onto the already bloated modset that is the zeni is simply frustrating. But even beside that, as explained in the section prior, racking up the hits to use the heavy attack function is extremely difficult especially with the current scaling of enemies.

 

 

With the current iteration of the zenistar, its usefulness is extremely diminished to the point of being useless. As a 100,300,500,or 700 day login bonus, the fact that this weapon which is nearly exclusively used by endgame/veteran players is so utterly useless is honestly an insult to those players. But even disregarding that, the whole premise of the zenistar -- being a turret weapon you place down for various debuffs on the enemy -- was completely lost in the new melee rework.

Recommendation:

-Remove the scaling duration on the zenistar and change the base duration to a set value (prior value of 45s would work)
This change would pretty much make the zenistar what it used to be. Not much to say but it would be a welcome change.

-Maintain the scaling duration but change the base duration to 40 or 45s while altering the rate it scales at.
Using this change, players would be able to spec into the combo system if they desired for multiple minute long zenistars. Make the scaling duration max out at a set duration (example 2.5 minutes). This change would also allow players to spec into straight damage/utility zenistar's as it used to be with little to no change in the effectiveness of the weapon compaired to pre-3.0.

 

The Zenistar is nearly useless at high levels. This must change as it was one of the only if not the only melee that could actually be used at extreme level content.

[George_PPS]

Restore Zenistar's range, restore all ranges of the melee weapons that have been nerfed. Keep the increased ranges for all other melees. Restore BR/CO/MS's effectiveness and explosive scaling numbers.  Restore whatever is broken. Restore the synergy between melee and guns. Restore fluidity of melee weapons. RESTORE THE FUN FACTOR of melee weapons.

Edited November 5, 2019 by George_PPS

[krimit]

please set the disk back to 45 seconds it was jsut long enough of a timer to make it worth it but not too powerful.  

[(XBOX)poodlebingo 65]

As a solo player, this was my back up and I invested heavily in it. Bought a Riven and rolled it multiple times to increase range and also farmed Spring Loaded Blade mod. It was in a good place but not now, I've also just now, received as a Sortie reward, a Catchmoon Riven. Thanks DE. I do understand the need for balance but you appear to be determined to ignore the efforts that players have put in to improve their weapons.and somehow punish them. I haven't, as yet, tested the changes but I trust our PC player's views. A lot of you aren't  happy. DE is this the reward for 'surviving' the content drought?

It's only a game but it's one I'm struggling to enjoy.

[Heidelgard]

I have used the Zenistar alot too and that's why I kinda agree with the nerf, I mean yea it was cool to have a constant area damage and status for 45 seconds every time you throw the disk ... but it's also true that it was a little bit too much cheap power in our hands. 

[Holo]

6 hours ago, Heidelgard said:

I have used the Zenistar alot too and that's why I kinda agree with the nerf, I mean yea it was cool to have a constant area damage and status for 45 seconds every time you throw the disk ... but it's also true that it was a little bit too much cheap power in our hands. 

I disagree with this. We have weapons like the pyrana and frames like equinox and saryn and octavia. As explained in my post above using melee weapons at extreme levels is not feasible. Even beside this, the zenistar, relative in damage before and after melee 3.0, has always been inferior to many many other weapons. Yes it was strong because it was unique, but it was in no way broken or something that you had to have to get massive amounts of kills. It wasnt a memeing strike weapon but it wasnt a dagger. It was not overpowered but even if it was, the only reason it was that way was simply because it offered a different melee playstyle.

[MerlinSorcerer]

My story:   

1    Zenistar acquired on 300 or 500 login day maybe for me.   (My first pick was zenithmaybe, i dont remember)     Instant fell in love with the disc.    (disc could damage through walls!!!!)
2     after using it 300-400 day: DE nerfing  the disc punchthrough so the flames blocked by every random pixel, loot or enemy. Very frustrating, but heeey. i love it. ! Keep using it anyway!
3  With this new melee change we have 10 sec (not 40) disc duration,  or combo to 12x to reach 120 sec for the disc, but if some random enemy or pixel,loot blocks the disc, we need to rethrow it, LOSING the duration, and need to farm comboooo  again.   Aaaaannddd zenistar is gone, never using it. Im sad dissapointed, but i wont use it.

tldr
It was my number one "melee "  for almost 2-3 years.  And recent nerfs force me to not use it.
Zenistar disc was not strong,  it needed 6-7 forma,  +riven  to "afk" for 40 sec against level 50-60 enemies.  with buff disc could killed maybe 120  but very loong time needed for this. I invested a lot in it. I dont care anymore.  DE force players to use what they think is meta,  and game losing the fun factor with every patch and new enemies.

Status is useless because of the new enemy types, who are immune to everything, and have +99% dmg reduction.  
good bye zenistar!  :   (    

 

Sry for bad typos. 
  

[Xzorn]

5 hours ago, HoloWheatenTail said:

I disagree with this. We have weapons like the pyrana and frames like equinox and saryn and octavia. As explained in my post above using melee weapons at extreme levels is not feasible. Even beside this, the zenistar, relative in damage before and after melee 3.0, has always been inferior to many many other weapons. Yes it was strong because it was unique, but it was in no way broken or something that you had to have to get massive amounts of kills. It wasnt a memeing strike weapon but it wasnt a dagger. It was not overpowered but even if it was, the only reason it was that way was simply because it offered a different melee playstyle.

 

Pretty much. The melee changes in general only seem to really affect the top end while causing a mess in the process and it's not like we have easy access to lvl 300+ enemies. On top of that like you mentioned only a select few frames can afford to melee at those high levels anyways so where is the direction here? I don't get it. Like are they really going after the now maybe 2% of players who still do long runs?

Zenistar was unique. No weapon like it and there probably never will be again. The synergy and build concepts were limitless.

[Miyabi-sama]

37 минут назад, Xzorn сказал:

not like we have easy access to lvl 300+ enemies

Should we had? People in general are struggling to finish Sortie 3 Disruption. On Corpus. Nuff said.

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Should we had? People in general are struggling to finish Sortie 3 Disruption. On Corpus. Nuff said.

 

A resounding Yes.

The choice of Difficulty should be present in just about every game. Even the most basic have Easy, Medium, Hard. The choice is what matters. Doesn't need to be forced. Doesn't need to be "end-game" but allowing players to pick their own approach to the game is very important in both longevity of play and appealing to a wide audience.

[Miyabi-sama]

1 минуту назад, Xzorn сказал:

 

A resounding Yes.

The choice of Difficulty should be present in just about every game. Even the most basic have Easy, Medium, Hard. The choice is what matters. Doesn't need to be forced. Doesn't need to be "end-game" but allowing players to pick their own approach to the game is very important in both longevity of play and appealing to a wide audience.

I agree, but since DE had continuously failed to bring real difficulty on table, relying instead on impairing player's abilities here and there, that nerf has a point. Now DE doesn't have to ramp up enemy levels every time new "Arbitrash" is invented to make it challenging. People are complaining about Catchmoon nerf in regards "there is no better gun to shoot arbi drones". Massive BS, there's a ton of guns capable of, it's just people so lazy to aim they prefer shoot through crowd noscope.

[Xzorn]

58 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

I agree, but since DE had continuously failed to bring real difficulty on table, relying instead on impairing player's abilities here and there, that nerf has a point. Now DE doesn't have to ramp up enemy levels every time new "Arbitrash" is invented to make it challenging. People are complaining about Catchmoon nerf in regards "there is no better gun to shoot arbi drones". Massive BS, there's a ton of guns capable of, it's just people so lazy to aim they prefer shoot through crowd noscope.

 

DE's current approach is a never ending cycle that causes toxicity and negativity among it's community.

They add new guns, weapons mods, primes, ect to excite players into doing new content. Kuva Kohm, easy example. Better than normal Kohm but why? To reward players. The game is entirely driven by Extrinsic rewards. Eventually they will get to the same point again and have to nerf a bunch of items then players will get mad again because they worked hard for those items. Rivens only serve to amplify the situation further.

Static Enemy level design ie Difficulty and consistent Power Creep just cannot work. It's impossible. At the basic concept levels are nothing more than Difficulty measurement. DE attempts to add Challenge to the game but without Difficulty ie without higher levels; challenge doesn't work. There's a reason players have nicknamed an achievement type system "Nightchores" because without Difficulty to back it up that's all Challenge turns into. Chores.

[ebrl]

Zenistar disc needed a nerf. 8 seconds of actual base uptime might be too much of a nerf, yes, but still, if you think it wasn't op as #*!%, your opinion is worth nothing.

Also, is there anything more predictable than Xzorn showing up in these threads to be completely wrong? Only that GearsMatrix guy comes close in how consistent he is at that.

[Xzorn]

Interesting. Most my posts until recent have been math and mechanic related because I made effort to understand every aspect of the game.

The only problematic thing with Zenistar in any terms of potency was DE's own fault. They allowed the Disc to gain stealth bonus damage though it's not a melee source of damage and they later allowed it to work with Condition Overload which it previously did not. Just one of many undocumented changes that go through this game.

Though I suppose it is possible new players don't understand reasoning based in math or mechanics if they've no knowledge of it.

[George_PPS]

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

DE's current approach is a never ending cycle that causes toxicity and negativity among it's community.

They add new guns, weapons mods, primes, ect to excite players into doing new content. Kuva Kohm, easy example. Better than normal Kohm but why? To reward players. The game is entirely driven by Extrinsic rewards. Eventually they will get to the same point again and have to nerf a bunch of items then players will get mad again because they worked hard for those items. Rivens only serve to amplify the situation further.

Static Enemy level design ie Difficulty and consistent Power Creep just cannot work. It's impossible. At the basic concept levels are nothing more than Difficulty measurement. DE attempts to add Challenge to the game but without Difficulty ie without higher levels; challenge doesn't work. There's a reason players have nicknamed an achievement type system "Nightchores" because without Difficulty to back it up that's all Challenge turns into. Chores.

100%.

DE has been doing a lot of nerfing for a while and every it does, few % players leave and never come back because most of these nerfs are maddening and making some players very angry and extremely disappointed. That static enemy levels design is also very bad and it means DE has to keep nerfing items. This has to change or player base will keep shrinking. 

[George_PPS]

4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

A resounding Yes.

The choice of Difficulty should be present in just about every game. Even the most basic have Easy, Medium, Hard. The choice is what matters. Doesn't need to be forced. Doesn't need to be "end-game" but allowing players to pick their own approach to the game is very important in both longevity of play and appealing to a wide audience.

Exactly, choices are the key and it cannot be forced. DE is forcing everyone to play the same easy or the same hard missions for some others. And DE is force nerfing gears players spend a lot of time to build, use, enjoy and like. These cycles are terrible. 

[SayikVindal]

I assume that, since 5 patches have dropped since the update was posted it is unlikely that the changes to the Zenistar will be changed. That is very disappointing. It appears, at least on the surface, that this change was entirely intentional.

[(XBOX)poodlebingo 65]

If you look at Prime Time stream 266 at around 29 min mark they were specifically asked, or referred to, the Zenistar disc. Come on DE, at least be open about what you intend to do. What changed?

[(NSW)Bayodrake]

About the Zenistar nerf, 

You see, I'm not a Catchmoon user myself, my number one is and always will be the Pox. I admit I was not looking so much into this massive nerfing issue because it wasn't my favorite weapon being nerfed, but my arrogance was met with due karma: Zenistar, my favorite melee weapon, has been nerfed to the ground. The Zenistar didn't have any game breaking issue, absolutely no exploit, not a needed or overpowered weapon for endgame content and, differently from the Catchmoon, it's not even one of the most used melees. The Zaws, the whips, the Paracesis, the Redeemer Prime, the Arca Triton or the Tipedo Prime are weapons I see used so much more than the Zenistar, so why simply take from us the opportunity of building a strategy or a gameplay niche around such an interesting and unique mechanic? Why simply dictate to us that we can't use this weapon anymore simply because you don't want to, DE? I find it horrible how you keep adding weapon after weapon after weapon and when they have any new mechanic to make the gameplay more diverse, you nerf it afterwards. You deal with weapons in the poorest way I have ever seen on a game like this, frankly. Hundreds of weapons and what for? 

The combo duration gimmick doesn't even come close to working and it's absurd that no one stopped to think that building a combo count with a heavy slow weapon as the Zenistar is not only a chore, but something that goes in the opposite direction of a playstyle using the disc throwing thing, the two things simply don't go together! You give us squishy frames, we have to deal with their  fragility in some way and setting some traps is the best of them, what are the odds we will go full front against heavy armored enemies using a Banshee, for example? The "afk" excuse is terrible because good luck trying to battle 100+ lvl enemies with only the Zenistar and 45 sec is VERY far from the time I would call "away from keyboard". You can drop Octavia's mallet for more time, bigger range, bigger duration and effectively kill everything around you without having to move an inch, but the issue is the Zenistar? And you can press 4 for Mesa and just refresh it a little while after it killed double the amount of enemies the Zeni would kill on the whole match. And no, it's not a case of nerfing Octavia or nerfing Mesa, it's a case of you simply not removing options for those who have an individual albeit valid way of playing the game, being it camping, fully engaging the enemies, setting up traps, supporting, etc. That's what makes a game fun, the freedom to put yourself into your strategies and you know what we players do  when you take away the joy of playing a game? We stop playing it. 

[(XBOX)poodlebingo 65]

19 minutes ago, (NSW)Bayodrake said:

About the Zenistar nerf, 

You see, I'm not a Catchmoon user myself, my number one is and always will be the Pox. I admit I was not looking so much into this massive nerfing issue because it wasn't my favorite weapon being nerfed, but my arrogance was met with due karma: Zenistar, my favorite melee weapon, has been nerfed to the ground. The Zenistar didn't have any game breaking issue, absolutely no exploit, not a needed or overpowered weapon for endgame content and, differently from the Catchmoon, it's not even one of the most used melees. The Zaws, the whips, the Paracesis, the Redeemer Prime, the Arca Triton or the Tipedo Prime are weapons I see used so much more than the Zenistar, so why simply take from us the opportunity of building a strategy or a gameplay niche around such an interesting and unique mechanic? Why simply dictate to us that we can't use this weapon anymore simply because you don't want to, DE? I find it horrible how you keep adding weapon after weapon after weapon and when they have any new mechanic to make the gameplay more diverse, you nerf it afterwards. You deal with weapons in the poorest way I have ever seen on a game like this, frankly. Hundreds of weapons and what for? 

The combo duration gimmick doesn't even come close to working and it's absurd that no one stopped to think that building a combo count with a heavy slow weapon as the Zenistar is not only a chore, but something that goes in the opposite direction of a playstyle using the disc throwing thing, the two things simply don't go together! You give us squishy frames, we have to deal with their  fragility in some way and setting some traps is the best of them, what are the odds we will go full front against heavy armored enemies using a Banshee, for example? The "afk" excuse is terrible because good luck trying to battle 100+ lvl enemies with only the Zenistar and 45 sec is VERY far from the time I would call "away from keyboard". You can drop Octavia's mallet for more time, bigger range, bigger duration and effectively kill everything around you without having to move an inch, but the issue is the Zenistar? And you can press 4 for Mesa and just refresh it a little while after it killed double the amount of enemies the Zeni would kill on the whole match. And no, it's not a case of nerfing Octavia or nerfing Mesa, it's a case of you simply not removing options for those who have an individual albeit valid way of playing the game, being it camping, fully engaging the enemies, setting up traps, supporting, etc. That's what makes a game fun, the freedom to put yourself into your strategies and you know what we players do  when you take away the joy of playing a game? We stop playing it. 

So well said. Thanks for putting your thoughts into words, I just wished that I'd said that.

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

TBH I'm even more mad at the fact my Glaive Prime lost so much effectiveness and confort while it was the entire point of the weapon.

 

But I'm also very disappointed by Zenistar changes.

Think about it : the very first Riven I unveiled was a Zenistar Riven. It had range, attack speed and status duration with negative crits after a few rolls. I went to MR16 and picked the Zenistar at 100 days just because I had that riven.

It wasn't my most used melee, but I loved it still.

And now it's unusable.

It's really a shame and it wasn't deserved. 

The worst part is that I like the melee change. Many weapons are so much more interesting thanks to it. Dragon Nikana murders everything, Lesion is incredibly powerful, Ninkondi Prime is even more enjoyable than before...

 

But Glaive and Zenistar nerf are too much. They fell victims of unneeded change.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Isokaze_BestKaze