The HUGE Zenistar nerf

[H.Katsura_999]

BUMP

It hurts, I can't find a good replacement for Zenistar and every time I logged in and see it on my WF's back I'm reminded of how the update broke this gem of a weapon. 

Even when using the most OP melee weapon after the update I still miss how nicely Zenistar's mechanic fits with any tactical play style. 

Hacking and slashing is fun but Zenistar isn't even remotely designed for that. It was a more fire and forget thing to help squishy frames lacking in hard CC avoid a direct confrontation with heavies.

After years on having it by my side I'm kinda crushed to see how the update transformed it into a fodder, a shadow of its former self.

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

I'm trying to do a new Zenistar build right now. I think you can manage something very decent with Corrupt Charge (starts combo counter at 30), Drifting Contact, Range, and some combo efficiency mod. It should theorically allows to send a 40-50 seconds disc within a few hit.

That will ask you to give up attack speed tho and some other mods. But if you do Elemental x2 / Gladiator Vice (6s combo duration) or Riven / Range / CO / Drifting Contact / Corrupt Charge / Combo efficiency, Zenistar should be useable.

It's not perfect. But it works. I do want my 45 seconds back however...

But I almost see no reason to use that build when I can just wipe the whole room with Silva&Aegis Prime.

[GreyDeath789]

13 hours ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

I'm trying to do a new Zenistar build right now.

Ok so I have read a few of these melee threads talking about the Zenistar and did some basic testing for a new build.

BLUF: Zenistar isn't worth the pain with these changes. Will sit on the shelf for me.

The main usage for Zenistar for me was always to block a hallway on long duration missions. Oh well...no more....Zenistar joins Telos Boltace...on the shelf never to be used again.

Here are the numbers from testing...

First things first...the "10 seconds" on the disc is indeed 8 seconds as stated previously in this thread. So all times for the disc should be considered 2 seconds shorter (making the 'change' even worse IMO).

Base build: Rending Crane, Primed Pressure Point, Primed Reach

Duration of disc....10/8 seconds.

Add Corrupt Charge...duration of disc...20/18 seconds.

Add Riven Zenistar Locti-acrium (+1 range, +10.8 iniitial Combo, +40.2% critical damage, -32.3% status change)...duration of disc...30/28 seconds.

Not everyone will have the riven...so 20/18 seconds of disc without hitting a mob.

As other threads have clarified...to increase the disc duration it is all about the melee counter.

2x = 20/18 seconds, 3x = 30/28 seconds, 4x, etc. 40, 50, 60, etc. up to a max of 120 seconds with 12x melee combo counter.

The "great" thing about this design is that the combo counter resets once you release the disc. Even better...the melee combo counter resets when you recall the disc early...thus wiping out all the work you did while the disc is out. Using Body Count / Drifting Contact to keep your melee combo counter numbers is fine if you expect to be meleeing while the disc is out...but that isn't really the pattern I have used in the past...so the resetting isn't a big problem for me.

In the end, a great weapon with a limited usage is changed into no need to bother using anymore. Sad but DE must have a reason for making things 'worse'...

[Nichivo]

While I can appreciate that more melee is now viable for most content. I am really not enjoying the lack of depth, in the new melee system. Niche weapons have been gutted for the most part. It all feels rather bland and lackluster now. The previous system really was brilliant, but like anything needed some polish. Instead they decided to reinvent the wheel, and forgot to start with something round.😞

[DaftMeat]

Goodbye, 6 Forma Zenistar. You were a fantastic Fire-and-Forget crowd control tool. Now you will be a fantastic dust collector.

[SayikVindal]

If Corrupt Charge can get the disc to at least 20 seconds, that is something. They have made some other changes with respect to the Zenistar as well, and brought back "hold E" as a trigger for heavy attacks.

20 seconds is less than half what it used to be, but I could work with that. Barely.

It really should be at least 30 seconds as a base, but after all the patches it is pretty clear that this 10 second spawn was intended.

[---BigDog---]

R.I.P.    Zenistar ......

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by ---BigDog---

[Methica]

Hmm.. I used it quite often. perfect for defence.

Tried it after updaten and..Not anymore, sensless short spinning time.

So its easy.. just take another of the tons of available weapons.. and the good old Zenistar will be left unused in the armory.. forgotten.

taddaa 🤡

 

[PyroGoon]

On 2019-11-11 at 5:10 AM, Walkampf said:

I'm pretty certain that this is the exact reason why they DIDN'T implement it this way.

DE is very much against "set and forget" abilities. This whould be one of them. Set the disk to one entrance and keep it alive whle mashing enemies in another.

Im pretty sure you like de-clawed cats. the recent change to the zenistar has taken away everything that makes it special. Who cares if its a set and forget weapon, I've seen plenty of people say they don't use it. How about rather than forcing us to not use the weapon, you just let us play how WE want to. Its not like we waited up to 150 days for the weapon or anything :/

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Can anyone confirm on pc if the Zenistar disc procs Impact when it’s casted on the field?

Apparently some troubling news was mentioned with this criticism posted in the Melee Phase 2 Stats Feedback thread: 

So does DE intend to “balance” the Zenistar like they did with the Simulor family of guns and proc Impact on enemies so that they’re essentially moving away from the intended AoE attack?

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

On 2019-11-07 at 1:29 PM, Xzorn said:

 

I think what might be worse is they generally revert the overly savage nerfs over time. Simulor / Tonkor are great examples. They now function more like they should have after being nerfed (if at all) personally Simulor scaled like dooky but I get it. They just wanted people to stop using those weapons. Then they bring them back into the light with more reasonable changes but the community has moved on so we end up with one in hundreds of underused weapons which is esp sad when they have unique mechanics.

Most conversations I had about Zenistar. People thought it wasn't good and in the "typical" game it's not. So I'm confused what the aim for this change was. It's still not a good melee weapon and the Disc is certainly not enough to sell it as such so it's still Zenistar as we know it (A disc thrower) but made useless.

Still waiting on Telos Boltace’s Storm Path change, which still hasn’t been touched upon after years of constructive feedback on how terrible the second slide attack mechanic is.

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Still waiting on Telos Boltace’s Storm Path change, which still hasn’t been touched upon after years of constructive feedback on how terrible the second slide attack mechanic is.

 

I think they sorta just changed it. The 2nd spin puts enemies in Lift status now which.... eh.

Haven't tried it. Don't see a point in Lift either. It's obvious players just want to pull portion if anything.

Maybe make a DE Kill Count. Add in Gammacor, Angstrum, Plasmor and some other partially resurrected weapons. Prolly some melee now I'm sure.

[wolfwind12345]

wow came back to the game today to find out that my favorite weapon be useless. GG DE why you hate that scaling content so much.

[(PSN)AnticoP77]

RIP solo survival, RIP solo kuva farming; RIP endurance... RIP zeninistar. Good work DE 😪

[Sylonus]

On 2019-11-04 at 7:38 PM, HoloWheatenTail said:

Currently, as the zenistar requires a decent combo counter for its disk to be of any reasonable duration, it requires the player to spec around the weapon rather than speccing with the weapon. No longer is the battle about synergizing it is about building around that one melee mechanic. I may be wrong but from what I understood about melee 3.0 is that it was trying to reduce that speccing around melee weapons. No longer would you have to run a equinox with naramon and a polearm to get maximum damage in a mission-- you could run primaries, secondaries, melees, and the damage/kill rate wouldnt be too far seperated for each. But this goal of melee 3.0 seems to have been lost on the zenistar.

If this was one of the goals of melee 3.0 it's failed spectacularly. My builds are narrower than ever, I'm almost always using gladiator mods and Helios/Deconstructor, I'm running Naramon a lot now instead of just sometimes, all in an attempt to recoup some of the lost melee scaling power for high level enemies, this isn't just Zenistar related (though it absolutely applies to it as well), this has to do with all of the mod and combo changes.

[krimit]

45 seconds

[Kwikwilyaqa]

Zenistar shouldn't be in this narrow minded update... it was never a "melee weapon" to start.

So many things to butcher... why a 300 days login reward that players invested first in the game so long in order to acquire. I'm truly starting to grow tired of melee changes... and they are talking about "rage" and overdeveloping even more a "smash E" system that nobody cares about complexity. Combo counter for Zenistar's disc... what a lousy joke...

[(XBOX)ChewyAM]

This recent change to the Zenistar has totally BROKEN my play style for many mission types and 'frame - weapon combinations.  This leaves me unable to play MANY types of missions with the same level of effectiveness, ergo, I can no longer enjoy the game with the severity of this change, nor am I able to achieve the levels/rewards required to get higher level relics and other things that require higher and higher round completion.  Allow me to explain:

I am a strict SOLO player on Xbox.  (I respect the multiplayer and PC crowds, it's just not for me). 

I have been playing Warframe for 3829 hours. 

I primarily play stealth type builds, but occasionally play tank type builds, as needed to accomplish a given task.

The Zenistar weapon was MADE to deploy a disc in an area and let it sit/spin to create an AoE, while YOU shoot/melee in or around the AoE.  I'll say it again: IT WAS MADE TO SIT/SPIN.  It was clearly created to assist the player in bringing down or hurting enemies, within a given area; IMHO, a great assistive device.

It's best application WAS for any mission that required you to "protect" something, i.e., excavation, mobile defense, defense, interception, arena, defection, disruption, these types under arbitration and hijack.  It also had a utility in most boss fights, as it could be used to "soften up" the target(s) by allowing a chance to proc whatever you build it for, as well as sanctuary onslaught, where you could deploy a disc on arrival to a new area and run around, while you killed enemies.

In these missions, combined with either a stealth build (predominantly Ivara/Loki for me) or a tank build (Frost+globe, Rhino+stomp), you could create the AoE field and as enemies approached, you could hit them with the primary/secondary while being affected by the AoE created by your build type.  This allowed for a better synergy between stealth, AoE and CC (crowd control).

The key for the Zenistar was to enable a player to go further, achieve higher and last longer.  It was a very effective tool that allows you to SOLO the harder missions and in particular, with stealth 'frames. 

In no way was the Zenistar an OP weapon as it was.  I have heavily forma-ed the Zenistar and HEAVILY INVESTED in Prime Mod augmentation to maximize it's range, speed and effectiveness to my level of competence and ability.  It was NOT an OP weapon. It was a very effective COMPLIMENTARY weapon when combined with a suitable set up.

Please revert the Zenistar back to what it was.  Here is what I would like to see:

- Extend the base time to 60 seconds

- Remove the spin-up time to start AoE (currently nearly 2 seconds, making the disc AoE only 8 seconds, NOT 10) – Start AoE right from deployment of the staff

- Remove the ability to ever achieve more than 50% status chance

- Keep the critical chance to 5% max

If you are not willing to revert this change back, I offer a few ideas to offset the Zenistar nerf, thus bringing BALANCE (as I often hear being thrown in many discussions over the years), by adding the old Zenistar AoE capabilities to:

- Companions.  Give the user the ability to deploy companion in a stationary position, for 1 minute, all

the while, making an AoE equal to the old Zenistar (mods allowing).  The companion would automatically rejoin your side when the timer expired, allowing you to re-deploy your companion if you so choose to return to the original deployment area.

- Warframe's Aura.  Expand the idea of Aura from one mod slot to it's own 8 mod slot configuration, allowing the Aura to act as an AoE.  Obviously, there should be some type of energy refresh/depletion mechanism, but moving the AoE of the old Zenistar mechanic to the Aura could replicate the function somewhere else, while preserving the new Zenistar functionality.

- New gear wheel consumable.  Create a gear wheel consumable that could create a static  AoE or configurable AoE (like mods do for 'frames/weapons) but through different recipe combinations via the foundry, built in all combinations available to any 'frame/weapon.  This could also have an added benefit of helping to clear out the over burgeoning of little used inventory ingredients.

- Warframe specific replication

  - Ivara - Change Ivara's Sleep only arrow to an 8 mod configurable AoE arrow.

  - Loki - Change Loki's Decoy ability to an invulnerable decoy, with an 8 mod configurable AoE.

I would humbly beseech and request a reply to this by someone in DE that can effect change. 

Summarily speaking, this Zenistar nerf has totally blown up my ability to effectively use my Warframe time.  It has completely broken my play style.  It has truly ground my ability to play warframe to a halt.  Without a solution, I essentially either have to create a whole new play style for everything I’ve developed over the years I’ve had the Zenistar or I have to stop playing Warframe.  I am unwilling to relearn everything I have learned to do, in order to accommodate this change.

The Zenistar was THE key, THE linchpin holding 90% of how I play Warframe together.

(Not to mention that EVERY TIME there is a big update, my CONTROLLER bindings change, with NO DOCUMENTATION to indicate HOW and WHERE it’s changed OR HOW TO PUT THEM BACK.  Moving Melee/Disc release and putting the Disc release function with the D-PAD down???  Really???…so I’m suppose to release the left stick, click d-pad down, then move back to d-pad…..Just Bad…PLEASE STOP THIS PRACTICE – Please put it back to combine with Melee; makes better sense than what it is currently combined with.  Enough already.  Just Stop.  Please.  Stop it.)

Please reconsider what you have done to the Zenistar and please take action as soon as feasible.

[(XBOX)tealfigment]

so is this the first time your build has been inconvenienced by a nerf or two or perhaps one to many mhmhm..ahaha join the bandwagon x1000, only difference f2p so cant complain oh and havent touched console gaming in 2+ years and going, if you behave well enough and maybe just maybe youll get an extra 2 seconds back on the hover time due xmas edit: uwu

Edited November 20, 2019 by (XB1)tealfigment

[GrimSinner]

One work around is to build for heavy attack with Corrupt Charge, Killing Blow, and Spring-loaded Blade.  You get decent (not great) disk time without having to build combo, good range, and it deploys a LOT faster than pre nerf.  Plus you can run around heavy attacking and spamming heavy slam attacks with the handle. It's kinda fun!  

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by GrimSinner

[SayikVindal]

Well folks, many hotfixes later and it looks like the short duration is here to stay.

[(XBOX)SquattingB3AR]

80% of the fun i have is now gone thanks to the disc time being nerfed to the ground. To heck with the combo multiplyer molarky. why dey do dis 😕 whos hating on the zenistar still,with dispo 1 riven cry cry cry cry

[Chicken-Biryani]

lol

DE can do whatever they want to, no rhyme or reason needed. It's not coming back. 

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Disc time now 9seconds

[Sitchrea]

It would help if you tried playing the game and testing it for yourself. Melee was not nerfed. At all.