Thoughts on how to improve the lich system

[--UMBRA--Cerberus]

Well there are alot of aspects to cover but I'll try to keep it to the point

1.  Currently you can force a damage type on the kuva weapon but the percentage is rng which doesn't really make sense, and since the weapons/contracts will be tradable at some point this means a new mafia, worse than the "riven mafia"; how about implementing a system to rank up the percentage of the element of the weapon along with the lich itself, this can also mean increasing the lich current level cap (5)
E.G. Kuva Karak with 25% toxin - Lich rank 1 --------------> Kuva Karak with 30% toxin - Lich rank 2

2.  I've guessed the first mod right on one of my liches but when I unlocked the first murmur it was the mod I already knew 😕 so The known mod(s) should be added to the already deciphered murmur list

3.  Loading in and out of missions is such a hassle imo, maybe there should be endless missions and thralls will still spawn throughout the mission. So instead of capping the endless missions to one rotation only (current state) make it endless but also make the enemies scale faster or add some sort of modifier

E.G. Murmur survival but every 5 minutes the enemy level gets pumped up by 5/10 levels; thralls spawn more frequently

4.  There is nothing worse than an insta kill, we should enter a bleed out phase if the sequence was wrong instead of being dead

5.  We all noticed the mods have sentences, I tried using sense to make out what order I should use to kill my lich and sometimes it works; other times not so much. Maybe there should be a universal code like when you put the three mods in the right order they will make more sense or rhyme or other wise fit together instead of the current slap a mod on and pray

6.  This update is quite forma heavy, maybe the max level for kuva weapons will scale with the lich rank as well (same concept for point 1) or lower the forma cost to max a weapon. 5 forma per weapon is a huge time investment for a collector who wants to hit MR 28 like myself, also this will make alot of players (including myself) hold off maxing out weapons and instead waiting to get a better "roll" and sink forma into it

7.  More forma issues, maybe the T5 relics can have forma bps in the future? like requiem V-VI-VII-VIII will have a forma bp in the common drop instead of an amber star or the kuva

8.  For some reason you can only unlock one murmur per mission, I've had scenarios when I needed only 2/3 thralls to fully unlock the mod but then any further thrall kills would not count towards unlocking the second murmur. This is kinda annoying and time wasting, the second murmur should receive the extra process from the fully unlocked mod either right during the mission (same way our weapons gain ranks etc) or get the bonus murmur progress when we finish the missions successfully (more like how bonus mastery points work)

That's all I can think of right now, I'll edit if I get more ideas, Feedback is always welcome ^^

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by BuffFrame
Added point 8

[Phannttonn_]

maybe reduce ammount murmurs from discover new weakness 50 for each is a lot of job to do for a casual player maybe 25 was good . 150 for all 3  is a lot  of time i spend alone a entire day for hunt one kuva this is a big S#&$ forçe me  hunt this and after all this #*!% farm i lose requiem mod after kill the kuva lich

[HammerJuice]

Dear DE I feel that the new lich update is great Buuut. It's just way to grindy. While the content is fun. It's just, slowed way down by the low drop-rate kuva mods, Random chances of getting the right one or even a drop of a relic. Lich blocks in groups, mumurs/followers are also very low per kill. Getting them in the right order after. After all that we only get 3 charges per mod. Then it starts all over again. Is there anyone else that feel this is way too much of grind just to get a Kuva weapon?

[TinFoilMkIV]

I think a really big improvement would be some way to retrieve stolen items before you completely defeat your lich. Preferably being able to target a single stolen item/resource to track down so it's not just another RNG-fest to retrieve that one item you actually want before going through the lengthy process of properly taking the lich down. Of course the tracked stash should have more than just the one item/resource, but the one you target should be the one thing guaranteed to get back.

That could potentially add a fun new thing to do, and make the liches less frustrating when they steal particular items. I personally like them being able to steal literally anything, but that's only if there's a way to recover specific items without having to completely take the lich down to get it back.

Edited November 3, 2019 by TinFoilMkIV

[TARINunit9]

Kuva weapons get base elemental decided by what Warframe spawned them? Fine so far, I don't see any problems yet. That base damage randomized between 20% and 60%? Now I think we have a problem. Riven mods are wonky enough, I really don't think we need Riven weapons

Players who haven't collected all their murmurs and parazon mods need a way to fend off Liches without spending a revive (no Troll_Logic, just because revives are dirt cheap does not make it acceptable. We could have unlimited revives and it would still be bad design. That is not what extra lives exist for)

And on the story side of things, why are Liches tied to Larvlings like that? Why do we, the players, get told "hey if you kill this one guy you've never met before, marked with a glowing red symbol, he'll turn into a Kuva Lich". That's not how a nemesis works, that's not how a kingpin works

[Fsunate]

Remove the patch, that will fix everything.  There's no improving this mess.

[BornWithTeeth]

System has just a little bit much grind in the Murmur's phase, tbh.

 

Other than that....I certainly hope that Kuva weapons are not able to be traded.

 

 

Oh, needs the ability to have more downtime between liches if a player wants, in a fashion more elegantly delivered than "just don't kill the larvling".

Edited November 3, 2019 by BornWithTeeth

[Jitsuryoku]

• Make mods harder to get but stay as a permanent unlock. Kuva Lich system is grindy and unrewarding enough as it is to have each attempt be slowed down by relic hunts, upgrades to radiant and runs.
• Throw Thralls out into the world, so we can progress, while doing other stuff.
• Can't be any more specific about this one, but fix the completely useless liches like I described above. I just started it and I already know I'm not getting ANYTHING worthwhile in the upcomming 2 hours it will take me to get rid of it.
• Add the "puzzle" element you promised. You made it sound like it would be possible to FIGURE OUT THE MODS that can be used and not have the option to guess or grind for them.
• Allow solo extraction without a timer. In over half of the missions there's a slow player who is doing god knows what. If I have to grind for months I really don't want to wait for a minute for every 80 second mission I do....

[SayikVindal]

My suggestions.

1) Move Lich spawns north of level 40 content.

2) Allow players to opt out.

3) Despawn lichs if not attacked after X minutes.

4) Allow stats on Kuva weapons to be rerolled aka riven mods using kuva.

5) Two knockdowns despawn the Lich.

Might add more later.

[MysteryPig]

1 hour ago, TinFoilMkIV said:

I think a really big improvement would be some way to retrieve stolen items before you completely defeat your lich.

Your idea might deserve its own thread.

Missions in warframe have been one-sided for a long time. Objectives like Mobile Defense, Sabotage, Spy, and Capture have goals with a lot of potential for effects outside of the individual missions. While I didn't think this would ever fit into Warframe's current systems, with the Lich they have a really great opportunity for use, because now we have a goal that's larger than single missions.

The Lich itself is designed well, and I don't think it should be effected by missions. His army/influence is where this would really stand out. Doing missions with these goals should weaken influence in broader ways than simply clearing a node. I've got suggestions, but they'd need a slightly changed influence system, so I'll describe that first:

Rather than influence expanding on Lich levelups, it should expand based on a timer. Influence should expand more often if the Lich is angrier and if the player plays more, and it should be tuned to make sure that it doesn't grow out of control if you take a break. It is crucial that the timer reach a really high rate if you play more often and defeat more influence nodes, so it doesn't lock people out of the Lich system by taking them all away. This would create multiple factors that the player could control through gameplay, rather than just the one method, and also make the Lich seem a lot more independent and proactive, rather than our current reactive Liches. Onto the mission suggestions:

Spy and missions with Caches should allow the mentioned way to retrieve stolen items. It might also be neat to give them Lich-specific rewards, namely the Requiem mods or relics, which would be unstealable as you left a mission. They should have an enemy level about 20 higher than exterminate missions, I think.

Hijack and Sabotage should reduce the Lich's ability to expand. It should slow down the timer AND reduce the number of nodes he'd be able to take over next. These would probably be the same level as Exterminate.

Mobile Defense and Interception should give you intel on what your Lich's next move is. They should slow down the timer, as you've disrupted his plans. It should also have a small chance to unlock a high-level Exterminate or Defense mission on a planet that the Lich has no influence on but is trying to take over in the next few timer cycles. Completing THAT mission would cripple the Lich's front lines, making it impossible for him to take over nodes on planets he doesn't have influence on for a number of timer cycles. This would allow players a lot more control over their loot being stolen as long as they are willing to be proactive and protect themselves. The Mobile and Interception missions should be 10 or 15 levels higher than Exterminate, but the unlocked mission should be +40 or higher.

To alleviate grind, Capture missions should have a special Lich target that awards ~3 Murmurs upon mission completion. Some Extermination missions could also be labeled differently (Invade? Lich HQ?) and have a higher level but spawn Thralls two or three times as often.

I wouldn't want to add too many special missions, though, so this idea can be actually implemented and so that it doesn't take the place of squad link, so maybe not all of these should be added. I'm open to other suggestions though. Thoughts?

TL;DR: Make different mission types have different effects on the Lich to make interactions with the Lich system feel more useful and give players more ways to control Lich influence while making the missions themselves more interesting to play.

Edited November 4, 2019 by MysteryPig
add tldr

[MysteryPig]

Also, the Liches' weapon type needs to be deterministic/controllable the way the element type is, and the liches themselves need to be much more permanent to make them a really interesting system. Right now, it's a big, repeating grind, but the idea of the system seems better suited to something that you'll interact over weeks rather than two days.

[MysteryPig]

13 minutes ago, MysteryPig said:

Also, the Liches' weapon type needs to be deterministic/controllable the way the element type is, and the liches themselves need to be much more permanent to make them a really interesting system. Right now, it's a big, repeating grind, but the idea of the system seems better suited to something that you'll interact over weeks rather than two days.

To expand on this idea: Liches don't level up when they aren't defeated, but when they are successfully defeated. Instead of convert or destroy, it could be a choice between destroying the lich and getting its weapon or leveling it up. When you level it up, its' gun's elemental bonus could then increase as others have suggested. Their mod combination should switch, but the lower level ones shouldn't exchange all 3, so you still know some of the requirements. They should also unlock more of their abilities as they level up, and only start out with one or two. It would probably be good to also raise the level cap to ten to make it more risky to get the maxed-out guns.

Forcing gun types could be achieved with the requiem mods. Each lich could instead have 4 requiem mods involved in its kill; about half (13/24 I think) of the combinations of 3 of those mods should kill it. Each different combination would force the lich to drop a certain Kuva weapon instead of the one it wields. For each dial of murmurs filled up after the fourth, one of these combinations (including the order) and the resulting gun would be revealed. This would give players more choice and also make it easier to get rid of liches without farming thralls for those who don't want to participate. Afterthought: If all combos were chosen randomly, it would be possible for one of the four kill mods to be involved in no kill combos; that should be prevented from occurring.

[Fl_3]

Give the requiem mod after you kill enough thralls instead of having to grind RNG to have a chance at unlocking it. Just that would make Kuva Liches more tolerable.

Also, an opt out button for people not interested in playing this content.

[Zoero]

converting a lich still consumes your mods... make it so that converting spares your mods since you don't really gain anything from converting it. yea he spanws and tries to help but that is negligible honestly. I converted my 6th lich because i already had the weapon and still lost a mod.

[--UMBRA--Cerberus]

12 hours ago, TinFoilMkIV said:

I think a really big improvement would be some way to retrieve stolen items before you completely defeat your lich. Preferably being able to target a single stolen item/resource to track down so it's not just another RNG-fest to retrieve that one item you actually want before going through the lengthy process of properly taking the lich down. Of course the tracked stash should have more than just the one item/resource, but the one you target should be the one thing guaranteed to get back.
 

Now that's quite a nice idea! I have a friend who lost a legendary core and was really upset

[--UMBRA--Cerberus]

11 hours ago, Jitsuryoku said:

• Add the "puzzle" element you promised. You made it sound like it would be possible to FIGURE OUT THE MODS that can be used and not have the option to guess or grind for them.

Yes, we totally need that instead of the current system

[--UMBRA--Cerberus]

10 hours ago, SayikVindal said:

My suggestions.

1) Move Lich spawns north of level 40 content.

3) Despawn lichs if not attacked after X minutes.

4) Allow stats on Kuva weapons to be rerolled aka riven mods using kuva.

1) Why? they're meant to be somewhat geared towards more experienced players and hence the level bump

3) I think alot of people will agree with this

4) This could be really good or really bad tbh

[--UMBRA--Cerberus]

10 hours ago, MysteryPig said:

Spy and missions with Caches should allow the mentioned way to retrieve stolen items.

Hijack and Sabotage should reduce the Lich's ability to expand.

Mobile Defense and Interception should give you intel on what your Lich's next move is.

To alleviate grind, Capture missions should have a special Lich target that awards ~3 Murmurs upon mission completion.

That's a change I'd love to see. Great concepts mate

[Jarriaga]

1- Have Kuva Larving only spawn in Kuva-related missions. Not only is it thematically appropriate considering they are introduced in-mission by Kuva Guardians (Which can only be seen in Kuva missions), but it gives a middle ground opt in option for the system.

2- Liches can not steal requiem relics as it could make them unkillable.

3- Increase Kuva Siphon Requiem Relic drop chance to 60%, increase Kuva Flood Requiem relic drop chance to 130% (The extra 30% is a chance to get a second relic or to get it as a Radiant Requiem relic).

4- Make the Kuva Lich weapon type be based on the planet it was created.

5- Make the Kuva Lich weapon bonus be based on the Warframe used to create it. Reddit claims that's currently the case, but official confirmation would be appreciated considering the original Tridolon run was also giving specific Arcanes in set groups rather than being random, so it could be a bug,

6- Heavily decrease the number of Kuva Lich Thralls you need to kill in order to get your murmurs. 30 per murmur instead of 55 sounds reasonable for me.

7- If you discover which Requiem mod hurts your Lich on your own in a a fight, the Murmurs you currently have work towards unlocking the next Requiem mod. Makes no sense you are still forced unlock Murmurs for a Requiem you already know that works. 

8- Add a way to down your Lich so you can scare it away without you having to die.

9- Stolen loot is multiplied by 1.1-1.5 when returned depending on your Lich's rank at the time you kill it.

10- Increase Kuva Lich battle difficulty and stats to around pre-nerf Wolf levels. Liches are disappointingly weak for what they are and what they are meant to be. As pointed out by Mogamu, their life is only prolonged due to the RNG layers that are involved, which are only there to mask how easy the actual battle is. A Rank 5 Lich fight should be taxing on you as a player. It should demand endurance from you. It should not be over in 1 minute. 

Layers of RNG exist only to prolong what is otherwise low player skill content. 

Those are my recommendations to streamline and improve the system. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Jarriaga]

11 hours ago, MysteryPig said:

Your idea might deserve its own thread.

Missions in warframe have been one-sided for a long time. Objectives like Mobile Defense, Sabotage, Spy, and Capture have goals with a lot of potential for effects outside of the individual missions. While I didn't think this would ever fit into Warframe's current systems, with the Lich they have a really great opportunity for use, because now we have a goal that's larger than single missions.

The Lich itself is designed well, and I don't think it should be effected by missions. His army/influence is where this would really stand out. Doing missions with these goals should weaken influence in broader ways than simply clearing a node. I've got suggestions, but they'd need a slightly changed influence system, so I'll describe that first:

Rather than influence expanding on Lich levelups, it should expand based on a timer. Influence should expand more often if the Lich is angrier and if the player plays more, and it should be tuned to make sure that it doesn't grow out of control if you take a break. It is crucial that the timer reach a really high rate if you play more often and defeat more influence nodes, so it doesn't lock people out of the Lich system by taking them all away. This would create multiple factors that the player could control through gameplay, rather than just the one method, and also make the Lich seem a lot more independent and proactive, rather than our current reactive Liches. Onto the mission suggestions:

Spy and missions with Caches should allow the mentioned way to retrieve stolen items. It might also be neat to give them Lich-specific rewards, namely the Requiem mods or relics, which would be unstealable as you left a mission. They should have an enemy level about 20 higher than exterminate missions, I think.

Hijack and Sabotage should reduce the Lich's ability to expand. It should slow down the timer AND reduce the number of nodes he'd be able to take over next. These would probably be the same level as Exterminate.

Mobile Defense and Interception should give you intel on what your Lich's next move is. They should slow down the timer, as you've disrupted his plans. It should also have a small chance to unlock a high-level Exterminate or Defense mission on a planet that the Lich has no influence on but is trying to take over in the next few timer cycles. Completing THAT mission would cripple the Lich's front lines, making it impossible for him to take over nodes on planets he doesn't have influence on for a number of timer cycles. This would allow players a lot more control over their loot being stolen as long as they are willing to be proactive and protect themselves. The Mobile and Interception missions should be 10 or 15 levels higher than Exterminate, but the unlocked mission should be +40 or higher.

To alleviate grind, Capture missions should have a special Lich target that awards ~3 Murmurs upon mission completion. Some Extermination missions could also be labeled differently (Invade? Lich HQ?) and have a higher level but spawn Thralls two or three times as often.

I wouldn't want to add too many special missions, though, so this idea can be actually implemented and so that it doesn't take the place of squad link, so maybe not all of these should be added. I'm open to other suggestions though. Thoughts?

TL;DR: Make different mission types have different effects on the Lich to make interactions with the Lich system feel more useful and give players more ways to control Lich influence while making the missions themselves more interesting to play.

I agree this deserves its own thread. Making Kuva Thrall missions have a direct effect on the Lich's influence and tying cache recovery mechanics to your lost rewards is not only clever, but something DE should actively pursue considering how much they've focused on "connecting everything" so an update doesn't feel like an isolated island separate from the rest of the game. 

Spy missions recovering part of your loot, sabotage decreasing the influence, capture giving you more Murmurs, these would all be extremely welcome additions that would also improve Thrall missions a lot. They would feel a lot more dynamic and important to the conflict with your Lich if the actual mission type mattered rather than just being a Thrall murmur farm.