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Alexis_Walker

Can no longer perform finishers of any kind with E

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With the recent melee update, someone at DE apparently decided finishers would now be locked to the "Use" function we use to open lockers and hack consoles...

I would be willing to tolerate this if it were only the case for say, finishers specifically performed with the parazon, aka "mercy" finishers...

i might have even been okay with it including prompted stealth takedowns... kinda hard to get used to, but i could live with it...

no, why this really irks me and is completely  unacceptable is that ALL finishers are now locked to the X key... including those on knocked down, blinded, or otherwise temporarily stunned enemies.

what this means in practice is that when i'm in the middle of a fast, heated battle where performing finishers could be the difference between life andd death, the only way to perform said finishers is to move my index finger to a very awkward position that not only breaks the flow of combat, but could potentially leave me vulnerable as it is exceedingly difficult to maneuver the WASD keys at the same time as pressing X.

PLEASE. DE, I'M BEGGING YOU. let us use the E key to perform finishers again.

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If I were a sassy perso...

No wait, I am, are you missing a thumb? Not able to rebind your use key to something simpler? This is something we're able to adapt to. :tongue:

4 minutes ago, Alexis_Walker said:

what this means in practice is that when i'm in the middle of a fast, heated battle where performing finishers could be the difference between life andd death

On the other hand, when I'm in the middle of a fast heated battle I don't want to do a slow single target attack, and would much rather just swing my stick through a group of enemies.

Having a toggleable option to re-enable finishers on E, sure, no problem there. But simply making E the finisher button again is a big no from me.

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About finishers: Using an Xbox-controller, I can't even slam NPC's to the ground anymore, let alone cloak-sneak-up-finisher. NPC's used to fly around like ping-pong balls with a fist-weapon or a hammer, now they just stagger. Impossible to get NPC's off their feet and I can press any combination of buttons, they still stagger, then die to an autokill. Bluntly -- and not being sassy, it's not working, fix it DE!

UPDATE: Still not working on Xbox-controller, I can press default assigned B all day, stealthed behind an NPC -- clickety-clickety-click or a similar press-that-button-analogy... just, nuttin'. Also, not all heavy attacks works with all assigned weapon types -- I can press right-stick until the cows come home or just spin to win. Come to think of it, it's an all spin-2-win-fest as things are.

//MVP

Edited by MVP-SE
Default B on Xbox Controller
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2 minutes ago, MVP-SE said:

About finishers: Using an Xbox-controller, I can't even slam NPC's to the ground anymore, let alone cloak-sneak-up-finisher. NPC's used to fly around like ping-pong balls with a fist-weapon or a hammer, now they just stagger. Impossible to get NPC's off their feet and I can press any combination of buttons, they still stagger, then die to an autokill. Bluntly -- and not being sassy, it's not working, fix it DE! //MVP

And why specifically do you believe it is an issue with finishers being moved to the interact key?  

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Stealth players are used to using X for stealth kills. It is a bit odd to move finishers to X IMO. In fact, many of the melee changes seem to reduce the former fast pace of melee combat dramatically.

I would agree that finishers should be automatic and tied to the E key as before. X should be for stealth kills only.

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2 hours ago, SayikVindal said:

Stealth players are used to using X for stealth kills. It is a bit odd to move finishers to X IMO. In fact, many of the melee changes seem to reduce the former fast pace of melee combat dramatically.

I would agree that finishers should be automatic and tied to the E key as before. X should be for stealth kills only.

Stealth players in which game? Because I'm used to either using thumb button 4 (melee) or mouse 3 (use selected power, sleep in this case) + mouse 1 (headshot). And I hated the former, because as DeMonkey said, getting stuck into some stupid dance routine while you're trying to cut down a whole patrol in one swing is INCREDIBLY annoying. Likewise, if I wanted to backstab someone and they turned around just a little bit, I'd not get the stealth kill prompt and just swing normally, alerting them. Now, I can hammer the E key (which is the use button, I don't care what DE binds to it by default, E has been "use" ever since Half-Life in 1998) and if I'm not in the right angle, nothing happens - allowing me to sneakily reposition.

Likewise, I can charge at a horde of monsters now, hammer mouse 4 and never once have to worry about being glued to the floor for some stupid backstab animation which takes 4 times as long as simply swinging my Lesion at them.

As a side note, listing key names is completely useless in a game that lets you rebind all your controls.

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2 hours ago, SayikVindal said:

Stealth players are used to using X for stealth kills. It is a bit odd to move finishers to X IMO. In fact, many of the melee changes seem to reduce the former fast pace of melee combat dramatically.

Finishers being moved to X means that they no longer get accidentally activated when doing basic combos. This doesn't slow down the pace of gameplay, this prevents the fast-paced gameplay from being broken up by unwanted snail-paced Finishers.
There's nothing "slower" about the current (improved) system, except potentially the player's reaction time when they realise that E is no longer the correct button. Once you get used to it, this is no longer a problem.

Also, splitting Finisher controls on the basis of "stealth" versus "not-stealth" makes no sense. The only distinction between the two is the circumstances under which the Finisher prompt appears; there is no mechanical difference between "stealth finisher" and "not-stealth finisher" in this game.

Edited by SortaRandom
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As someone who does stealth gameplay a huge amount and also uses a controller to play on PC, I agree completely with @DeMonkey and what he said earlier.  I like having stealth finishers on a separate button.  Also you don't lose stealth multipliers with melee by not using stealth finishers.  Something I'm truly surprised about considering some of the recent stealth changes whether they are bugs or intended.  

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3 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Finishers being moved to X means that they no longer get accidentally activated when doing basic combos. This doesn't slow down the pace of gameplay, this prevents the fast-paced gameplay from being broken up by unwanted snail-paced Finishers.
There's nothing "slower" about the current (improved) system, except potentially the player's reaction time when they realise that E is no longer the correct button. Once you get used to it, this is no longer a problem.

Also, splitting Finisher controls on the basis of "stealth" versus "not-stealth" makes no sense. The only distinction between the two is the circumstances under which the Finisher prompt appears; there is no mechanical difference between "stealth finisher" and "not-stealth finisher" in this game.

well, the obvious way to "fix"  slow finishers is to speed them up/shorten them, not to add 2 extra keys to melee combat.

and splitting stealth kills from finishers absolutely makes sense, since a stealth kill is a chosen action and a finisher is an awarded power move for triggering a condition. the new system makes finishers all but useless, the entire point is they should be a free action that you dont have to manually press a key for.

for example...inaros desiccation...used to be a useful ability as you could blind a large group of enemies and then just seamlessly mow them down with finishers...now you cant. that ability is all but pointless now that you have to line them up and manually press a separate key.

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1 hour ago, cha0sWyrM said:

well, the obvious way to "fix"  slow finishers is to speed them up/shorten them, not to add 2 extra keys to melee combat.

and splitting stealth kills from finishers absolutely makes sense, since a stealth kill is a chosen action and a finisher is an awarded power move for triggering a condition. the new system makes finishers all but useless, the entire point is they should be a free action that you dont have to manually press a key for.

for example...inaros desiccation...used to be a useful ability as you could blind a large group of enemies and then just seamlessly mow them down with finishers...now you cant. that ability is all but pointless now that you have to line them up and manually press a separate key.

If you're driving a car, do you want the right pedal to alternate between being an accelerator and adjusting the cruise control based on the color of the car in front of you?

Both modes control the speed of the car, and you can manage it by choosing what car you drive behind. ... But that still doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it? Arbitrarily deciding whether you're in manual or automatic mode based on your surroundings isn't conducive to good controls. And hey, what if every car around you is the same color?

Describing finishers as an "awarded power move for triggering a condition" would make sense if that condition had to involve planning and intention, but that's not the case. I used to hate having an Inaros or Excal in my squad because they would take away my choice, I no longer had the ability to fight with melee how I wanted to. But now I can choose, and that is the most refreshing thing to come out of a Warframe update in years.

And hey, if a finisher is supposed to be a special power move that you have to take specific actions to perform, why is it bad that you have to perform a specific action?

Ultimately, what's important is that the player feels like they're in control. To paraphrase Ross Scott, if the controls make you feel like you're driving with your elbows, that's it, you can't enjoy the game. Automatic finishers gave me that feeling more often than not. If you want automatic finishers, then you should have the option, but it shouldn't be forced on me.

It seems to me that your issue with this is more a matter of muscle memory than good or bad mechanics, but hey, I might be wrong, and it's not my job to tell you how to enjoy a game. I hope DE will add the option to revert it. In the mean time, check out the Steam Controller, or if you use an XBox or PS4 controller through Steam check out what options Steam's controller configurator gives you. You can have a hell of a lot of freedom over your controls, including double-binding melee attack and use on the same button.

Actually, now that I think about it, the Steam Controller's dual-stage triggers would allow you to melee attack by pulling the trigger normally and perform a finisher by clicking it (it clicks when you bottom it out).

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Ground finishers use e. They don't seem to count as finishers for anything that triggers off finishers though (like arcanes).

Edited by schilds

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44 minutes ago, Dash_Lambda said:

If you're driving a car, do you want the right pedal to alternate between being an accelerator and adjusting the cruise control based on the color of the car in front of you?

Both modes control the speed of the car, and you can manage it by choosing what car you drive behind. ... But that still doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it? Arbitrarily deciding whether you're in manual or automatic mode based on your surroundings isn't conducive to good controls. And hey, what if every car around you is the same color?

Describing finishers as an "awarded power move for triggering a condition" would make sense if that condition had to involve planning and intention, but that's not the case. I used to hate having an Inaros or Excal in my squad because they would take away my choice, I no longer had the ability to fight with melee how I wanted to. But now I can choose, and that is the most refreshing thing to come out of a Warframe update in years.

And hey, if a finisher is supposed to be a special power move that you have to take specific actions to perform, why is it bad that you have to perform a specific action?

Ultimately, what's important is that the player feels like they're in control. To paraphrase Ross Scott, if the controls make you feel like you're driving with your elbows, that's it, you can't enjoy the game. Automatic finishers gave me that feeling more often than not. If you want automatic finishers, then you should have the option, but it shouldn't be forced on me.

It seems to me that your issue with this is more a matter of muscle memory than good or bad mechanics, but hey, I might be wrong, and it's not my job to tell you how to enjoy a game. I hope DE will add the option to revert it. In the mean time, check out the Steam Controller, or if you use an XBox or PS4 controller through Steam check out what options Steam's controller configurator gives you. You can have a hell of a lot of freedom over your controls, including double-binding melee attack and use on the same button.

Actually, now that I think about it, the Steam Controller's dual-stage triggers would allow you to melee attack by pulling the trigger normally and perform a finisher by clicking it (it clicks when you bottom it out).

sorry, but i dont understand how your car analogy relates at all. finishers as an awarded power move do involve planning and intention (or rather they did)...thats my point. you decide when and even how to create the condition that triggers the finisher. as per my previous inaros example...the player creates the condition by using the ability to blind the enemies, thus opening them to the finishers, after which they can pop from one to another and take them out in succession. as it stands now a finisher has no purpose, theres no real reason to use it. it doesnt benefit the player to have to take extra steps to perform the finisher when simply mashing the melee button will likely kill enemies quicker now. why even have finishers if they dont benefit the player? what are they for now?

if you dont want to use the finisher...dont create the condition that triggers it. and if you have a teammate that does create those conditions too often, and its hindering your play...well you can concentrate on different enemies or another part of the map or something. its not like there arent a ton of other scenarios where players actions make things a bit more difficult on their teammates. thats part of learning how to play with other people with other frames, adapting to the play field. i cant tell you how many times while playing nidus people come and kill my tentacle ball while im trying to build stacks....that happens literally every mission....you just have to go with it.

i do agree with you that it should be an option though. i understand your point, im saying i feel the same way you do, players should feel in control, as it stands, i feel that control has been taken away from me. now, instead of carefully and intentionally setting up a scenario for my finishers....now i have to babysit them and go through a multi step process of aiming and button presses to use what logically should just trigger on its own.

as for your steam controller suggestion...thats gonna be a hard pass from me. id rather eat my own eyes than play games with a controller. no offense to anyone who likes that...whatever works for you...but....no. i can change some things in my setup if i need to...i have more freedom over my controls now than any controller could provide. the point is the new mechanic is counter-intuitive, cumbersome, and clumsy. it doesnt behave in a natural expected way. in fact i might go so far as to say the very fact that a controller might be "easier" is proof that its a bad mechanic....but, thats a different discussion....though we could tie that back to to your analogy about cars and automatic and manual transmissions (the controller being the automatic in this analogy).

 

i guess ill just play frames where i dont really need to melee very much for now....see if future changes resolve some of these issues. killball gara is a great non melee melee frame.

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2 hours ago, cha0sWyrM said:

well, the obvious way to "fix"  slow finishers is to speed them up/shorten them, not to add 2 extra keys to melee combat.

lolwut??? No. Finishers are a fundamentally different type of attack than regular swings, and players need to be able to choose between them.
I have played zero other games where players are unable to choose between a basic attack and a slow-but-strong attack. The fact that it took so long for Warframe to solve this problem is complete insanity.

3 hours ago, cha0sWyrM said:

and splitting stealth kills from finishers absolutely makes sense, since a stealth kill is a chosen action and a finisher is an awarded power move for triggering a condition. the new system makes finishers all but useless, the entire point is they should be a free action that you dont have to manually press a key for.

Stealth finishers and "non-stealth" finishers are identical in every way except for the conditions under which the prompt appears. And stealth finishers appear by default on any unalerted enemy if you're behind it; do you genuinely think this is more "chosen" than manually casting Dessicate on a dude?

More importantly: the new system does not make any changes to the viability of finishers! It's literally just moving them from button A to button B. Nothing else has changed. If you really wanted to do a finisher but your target died too fast, you should probably ask yourself whether a finisher was necessary in that situation in the first place.

 

3 hours ago, cha0sWyrM said:

for example...inaros desiccation...used to be a useful ability as you could blind a large group of enemies and then just seamlessly mow them down with finishers...now you cant. that ability is all but pointless now that you have to line them up and manually press a separate key.

"Seamlessly mow them down with finishers"? What game are you playing? Finishers are the slowest melee attacks in the game and affect a maximum of one target at a time; there is no "mowing".

Also, if you're deadset on using Finishers for mowing down crowds... you can still do that just as fast as before the update. Literally just press X instead of E, my dude.

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2 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

lolwut??? No. Finishers are a fundamentally different type of attack than regular swings, and players need to be able to choose between them.
I have played zero other games where players are unable to choose between a basic attack and a slow-but-strong attack. The fact that it took so long for Warframe to solve this problem is complete insanity.

Stealth finishers and "non-stealth" finishers are identical in every way except for the conditions under which the prompt appears. And stealth finishers appear by default on any unalerted enemy if you're behind it; do you genuinely think this is more "chosen" than manually casting Dessicate on a dude?

More importantly: the new system does not make any changes to the viability of finishers! It's literally just moving them from button A to button B. Nothing else has changed. If you really wanted to do a finisher but your target died too fast, you should probably ask yourself whether a finisher was necessary in that situation in the first place.

 

"Seamlessly mow them down with finishers"? What game are you playing? Finishers are the slowest melee attacks in the game and affect a maximum of one target at a time; there is no "mowing".

Also, if you're deadset on using Finishers for mowing down crowds... you can still do that just as fast as before the update. Literally just press X instead of E, my dude.

ok....my dude.

 

you have a fundamental misunderstanding of my entire post and the last bit there is entirely incorrect...but thats ok. glad you like the new system.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, cha0sWyrM said:

-snip-

I chose my analogy quite carefully. It's not manual vs. automatic transmission, it's manual throttle vs. cruise control. In the hypothetical control system I proposed, the car is deciding when to put me in direct control of the throttle and when to put me in control of the cruise control, and it decides based on the cars surrounding me. I could theoretically control my environment in such a way that the car did what I expected, but there's no reason to make it such a hassle.

I really don't understand how it's useless now. They changed the button, you now have to press the use key. Is there something I'm missing?

And about teammates, I get where you're coming from but I find the sentiment almost insulting. If a player who doesn't know what they're doing has the ability to hijack the control behavior of everyone else, there's something mechanically wrong.
... Actually, it isn't even about players not knowing what they're doing. It's simply something that happens when you play certain frames. It's bad design.

I implore you to look a little bit more into the Steam Controller. I agree that controllers are an awful waste of human achievement... All of them except the Steam Controller. It's actually the first controller I could even stand using since I first got a PC more than a decade ago. It affords you deep, deep customization... There really isn't anything like it.

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