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Tatsu (Wise Razor) Melee Phase 2: Criticism, Feedback & Suggestions (with GIFs & in-depth descriptions for detailed visualization)


Casardis
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I am particularly fond of the Tatsu and Wise Razor stance, despite being subpar compared to some others. However, in Phase 2, a lot of the mobility has been removed due to the combo structure, so it's even worse now. This post will attempt to pinpoint what's wrong about the stance and how changing the combo flow could help, especially since the weapon itself isn't even that strong on its own. It will use the official Dev Workshop as a foundation for these changes, which I will quote when appropriate.
See here for full details.

Outlines of the issues I found

  1. Neutral Combo's last attack takes too long to reach
    • Possibly its fastest multi-hit strike with a bit of mobility, but it's reserved to the end of the neutral combo, which means you'll rarely ever see it since moving forward will change it to the Forward Combo.
  2. Neutral Tactical Combo is missing. 
    • Some weapons like Scythes are also missing such combo. As a result, the diversity in combos and tactics (lol) are lessened, weakening its potential.
  3. Forward Combo doesn't have a seamless loop
    • Unlike what the TECHNIQUES page advertize, Wise Razor's Forward Combo doesn't loop into the first one, and stops you on your track as well. It's outdated.
  4. Forward Tactical Combo has no distance-closing
    • Unlike some other stances, from Tempo Royale to Carving Mantis, there's basically no mobility to this. Again, it's like it's still stuck in Phase 1's design. Also, the combo ends with a Lift attack, which ideally should be reserved for Neutral Tactical Combo for versatility in usage, but see point 2...

These points, possibly among others, make the Tatsu very unbearably sluggish compared to many other stances. In fact I'll argue that it's slower and more sluggish than ALL THREE Heavy Blade stances. It doesn't help that its distance-closing attack, which previously had a much longer forward dash in phase 1 similar to the Stinger attack in Devil May Cry (before it was nerfed due to buggy momentum allowing you to cross Orb Vallis in a single dash), is still missing any utilty for what it's supposed to do: distance-closing.

In light of these elements, here are my proposed changes\overhaul to the combos and some details on how they should work, in order to make the Tatsu more fluid and enjoyable to play, but also overall better performing. Feedback from the community's welcome, but things like "I like the way it is" or "I prefer it this way" without explanation for the rebuttal will be ignored

All GIFs below have been edited; you cannot perform most of them in-game.

Forward Combo (Forward + Melee)

On 2019-10-18 at 1:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

This allows you to attack without initially interrupting movement with the first 1-3 swings (depending on the weapon Stance). The last attack in the sequence will loop seamlessly into the first, so that you can keep a level of mobility while attacking.

FrighteningSolidEeve-size_restricted.gif

- Remove third slash for a quick thrust that seamlessly loops back to the first slash when repeated. 
- Unlike the current version, this proposed change will have no slow downs in your steps, allowing you to keep running and slashing.

Forward Tactical Combo (Forward + Block/Aim + Melee)

On 2019-10-18 at 1:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

This move is usually a distance-closing opener, bringing you closer to the enemy and getting you within range to continue a harder-hitting string of attacks. The beginning or end of this combo can have a slam effect, allowing you to control the enemy, and during the mid-point of the combo, attacks will be large and sweeping, allowing multiple enemies to be hit.

UnrealisticImaginativeAcornweevil-size_r

- Full overhaul: First attack performs leaping triple slash, allowing you to close the distance quickly.
- Distance traveled should be around 8m, which is the same distance as Tempo Royale's Forward Tactical's first attack
- Last strike will have an AoE slam effect causing Knockdown (again, similar to Tempo Royale's Forward Tactical Combo). This will give a good CC tool to get in close and "control the enemy."

Neutral Combo (Melee button only)

On 2019-10-18 at 1:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Hard hitting, movement-free attacks to allow a player to destroy their target. The last attack can either have a knockdown effect, or throw them into the air and hold them there, if one set of strikes does not finish the job.

LinearElementaryAmericanpainthorse-size_

- Remove the 4th attack completely (which has been repurposed for the Forward Tactical Combo).
- Third, stronger slash will now hit them with a staggering attack, opening them for a Finisher for a second or two.
- While not a Knockdown nor a Lifting, the Finisher idea plays with the concept of a more "refined" weapon style compared to Heavy Blades' many Knockdowns and Lifting attacks, rewarding you with possibly a quick kill on a single enemy if you perform the whole, arguably slow triple slash.

Neutral Tactical Combo (Block/Aim + Melee)

On 2019-10-18 at 1:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

First hit will likely be a longer thrust or throw of a weapon to increase range. Further attacks will be hard-hitting, and will often finish in a ragdoll effect or a Lifting Attack, as opposed to a knockdown or stagger.

FineDisguisedDodo-size_restricted.gif

- Full overhaul: repurposed the second Heavy Attack into this combo's first attack (Heavy Attack will only be the one spin as a result of this migration)
- As a neutral tactical combo, the first attack's aim to hit and stagger all surrounding enemies (similar to Defiled Snapdragon's Neutral Tactical).
- Follow ups allow you to bring those enemies into a Lifting status with the slam, opening your options for more combo.

Feedback are still ongoing for Melee Phase 2, but I'm not sure how much DE are willing to change specific combos themselves. However, since the Tatsu's currently alone in its category, with only one stance, I hope they take some consideration in my proposed changes.

Thank you for reading ❤️

Edited by Casardis
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This is on e of the bes ttopic about melee since launch.
Stance are detailled, explained and showed.

I know i may asking to much, alot much, but can you (or someone else) do the same thing with VENGEFUL REVENANT ?

I just want to know what move they put here and there.

But, here we are talking about how nice this topic is done.

I have a question, did you noticed some forced status effect ?

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1 hour ago, (PS4)superbabef said:

This is on e of the bes ttopic about melee since launch.
Stance are detailled, explained and showed.

I know i may asking to much, alot much, but can you (or someone else) do the same thing with VENGEFUL REVENANT ?

I just want to know what move they put here and there.

But, here we are talking about how nice this topic is done.

I have a question, did you noticed some forced status effect ?

Not exactly the level of effort of OP, but Here are all the attacks in sequence
and for forced procs:
static 3rd attack = impact
forward 3rd attack =slash, 4th = impact
block forward 1st attack = impact
static block combo 2nd attack = slash, 3rd attack = impact aoe

Static combo is as fast as forward combo for forward movement if you dont want to strafe/steer (and dont have a high run bonus) but unless the enemy has high armor (due to forwards slash procs) its better damage AND safer as it knocks enemies down.

1h swords are generally solidly smooth and tend to have a forced slash proc on at least 1 of their attack chains (forward for CD, first static thrust on IP and both forward and static block on swooping; possibly more but Vengeful feels the best to use).

As for op, the current static combo is IMO solid, tho giving the forward combo the spin as the 2nd attack while making the 1st attack/thrust/stinger as long distance as the 3rd attacks air roll OR at least allowing for movement during windup (the back pull of the sword) while adding the down slam and uppercut as a 2 input static block combo would be DOPE (tho without stealing the tempo royale double spin).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Friendly bump.

Kuva liches are nice, but I also wouldn't want another melee 2.0 situstion where it took almost a year before they started to look more deeply into the system (IIRC). 

We had more than one big thing introduced with The Old Blood. One shouldn't get all the attention.

Thank you.

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Alright, I'm impressed. I think a few tweaks could be made, but hey, it could be on a new stance instead. 

For now, I think Wise Razor is finally more fluid and useable. I'd argue that it's even smoother than Phase 1, which was all I wanted in the first place.

Thanks DE ❤️

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I agree with the combo stuff, on the other hand tatsu is in a better place imo. With a heavy attack build You can be quite strong even after level 100 enemies without synergizing status or warframe abilities. Its waay behind some melee weapons, both hybrid and heavy attack ones, but I feel like tatsu is actually usable now, while before melee phase 2 It was extra trash tier.

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