Exalted weapons need to be looked at.

[Arkoryon]

Noticed a huge decrease in performance of Wukong's Iron Staff. I've also heard that Exalted weapons in general are just downgrades from normal weapons now. That certainly is the case with the Iron Staff and Nikana Prime. 

This might be because they didn't get the same compensation buff other melee weapons did, and that really does need to be addressed. 

Edit: Clarity

Edited November 5, 2019 by Arkoryon

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

All Exalted weapons have received a massive drop in power due to Condition Overload now being terrible. Wukongs staff has definitely felt that the most since exalted can not use blood rush so CO was the thing holding it up.

The best work around I’ve seen for Excal is having corrosive and heat on exalted blade with its augment. I just hope they revert the CO nerf so it doesn’t have to come to that.

 

[Arkoryon]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

All Exalted weapons have received a massive drop in power due to Condition Overload now being terrible. Wukongs staff has definitely felt that the most since exalted can not use blood rush so CO was the thing holding it up.

The best work around I’ve seen for Excal is having corrosive and heat on exalted blade with its augment. I just hope they revert the CO nerf so it doesn’t have to come to that.

 

That makes sense. It's insane how quickly these abilities can become so redundant ;_;

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 minutes ago, Arkoryon said:

That makes sense. It's insane how quickly these abilities can become so redundant ;_;

It especially hurts because Pablo clearly put a lot of effort into Wukongs rework and now he’s just a tank spy vault raider.

[Zectico]

15 minutes ago, Arkoryon said:

... general are just downgrades from normal weapons ...

Exalted weapons tend to deal straight DPS instead of relying on crits/status effects to make up for damage. They are usually stronger since they benefit from power strength, and are associated with some extra perk (Exal. Blade gets a wall-hax projectile, Talons get invincibility, Iron Staff gets amazing range & cc, etc.).

Obviously Regulators and Artemis Bow aren't downgrades of anything. Though it would be nice if Exalted melees could use combo-based mods, not all Exalted weapons are meant be insane DPS machines. Abilities usually take care of groups and apply buffs/debuffs, while weapons kill the real tough guys.

^{Might get flack for this, but Wukong is already borderline OP as an insane as a tank with the best mobility in-game, along with decent DPS (clone 2x damage & staff). I think a lot of this is Wukong mains trying to buff him even more.}

Edited November 5, 2019 by Zectico

[Arkoryon]

1 hour ago, Zectico said:

 

not all Exalted weapons are meant be insane DPS machines. Abilities usually take care of groups and apply buffs/debuffs, while weapons kill the real tough guys.

^{Might get flack for this, but Wukong is already borderline OP as an insane as a tank with the best mobility in-game, along with decent DPS (clone 2x damage & staff). I think a lot of this is Wukong mains trying to buff him even more.}

True, but in the case of Iron Staff, the range means nothing if it continues to have the power it does now. Also, with that last statement: I've been a Wukong Main ever since the rework. I just want him to return to the position he was in before he was indirectly nerfed so hard. I don't really like playing frames with useless abilities that can be outdone simply with melee, especially if I put range on that melee! I want to be able to use it when I need to, when I'm in a position with too many enemies around me to kill. Right now, it's purpse is gone and so we have one less ability to use out of sheer redundancy.

Edit: To me, the dps isn't even decent anymore since it completely falls short when we actually need it

Edited November 5, 2019 by Arkoryon

[Arkoryon]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It especially hurts because Pablo clearly put a lot of effort into Wukongs rework and now he’s just a tank spy vault raider.

Ikr! He's become just like any other tank with added mobility. To me, that would be fine if he had 4 useful abilities; now it's just 3

[Marinara19]

Why even give him an exaulted weapon if it's useless tho, if they have a look at it I hope they make the damage scale off his armor so he actually plays like a tank!

Also you can't win with players this game spoiled them with damage increases that they complain about even the slightest adjustments~ 

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, Zectico said:

Exalted weapons tend to deal straight DPS instead of relying on crits/status effects to make up for damage.

That worked a lot better before the rest of the melee weapons got a massive base damage buff. Now 250 base damage really isn't anything special--hell, the Arca Titron almost has 250 impact damage alone, and it also has a bunch of slash alongside it. And even though it scales with power strength, it's not nearly enough to compete with the fact that most of the good melee weapons have better crit stats and can actually use Blood Rush. 

2 hours ago, Zectico said:

[Not] all Exalted weapons are meant be insane DPS machines.

Why not? And if they don't, then what are they actually good for? None of them have extra effects that are actually good enough to carry the ability on their own. 

They can't be looked at as just an ability, because in addition to the energy cost, they also have an opportunity cost of not being able to use your weapon. Like I get where you're coming from with the idea that abilities should usually be supplemental to your weapon damage, but that falls apart if it reduces your DPS out the gate by forcing you to use an inferior weapon. 

The way they should work is that they should provide a weapon that is at least on par with the weapon it's replacing, and then have extra effects on top of it to supplement the weapon's power. 

[yles9056]

While we are at it, can we talk about Titania's exalted melee weapon, Diwata?

It's just bad. It cannot use Blood Rush, it has low status chance, it stacks combo counter at very slow rate.

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, Zectico said:

Exalted weapons tend to deal straight DPS instead of relying on crits/status effects to make up for damage. They are usually stronger since they benefit from power strength, and are associated with some extra perk (Exal. Blade gets a wall-hax projectile, Talons get invincibility, Iron Staff gets amazing range & cc, etc.).

Err, basically none of this is true in the current melee (outside of the bit about exalted blade and talons).

For starters Exalted Weapons have always relied on crit and status to deal damage.

The bit about the Iron Staff having amazing range is, honestly, laughable. We have the stats now, it's base range is 3.5. My Zaw's range is 3.0. .5 more range is not amazing, furthermore normal melee can use Rivens easily making them longer than the staff.

3 hours ago, Zectico said:

while weapons kill the real tough guys.

These are weapons, you use an ability to summon a weapon.

3 hours ago, Zectico said:

I think a lot of this is Wukong mains trying to buff him even more

Preemptive ad hominem?

Edited November 5, 2019 by DeMonkey

[Shaburanigud]

I wonder if Garuda gets to be included into this little group.

[Zectico]

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

The bit about the Iron Staff having amazing range is, honestly, laughable. We have the stats now, it's base range is 3.5. My Zaw's range is 3.0. .5 more range is not amazing, furthermore normal melee can use Rivens easily making them longer than the staff.

You're forgetting that Iron Staff is an Exalted weapon, and doesn't follow normal weapon rules. The size of the staff changes with certain combos.

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

For starters Exalted Weapons have always relied on crit and status to deal damage.

Explain please. _{^{(Gota back up arguments to make them worthwhile!)}}

I'm arguing that Exal. weapons rely more on flat DPS due to not having Blood Rush: the strongest mod for melee crit builds. Channeled exalted weapons also share universally low status (10%), with the only exception being Artemis Bow at 20%. However, Exal. weapons do have high base damage, ability strength bonuses, and unique stance combos with multiplicative damage and high hit-counts. Crit and status do help, but Exal. weapons are strong enough not to need buffs.

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Preemptive ad hominem?

^{[edit] (Context - Zectico: Might get flack for this, but... I think a lot of this is Wukong mains trying to buff him even more.)}
No, it's because this entire thread is based around Wukong and his staff. Scroll through and Wukong shows up in nearly every comment.

This is because Wukong is the current meta by a massive margin. Meta frames tend to have a lot of players who are quick to blame the system rather than figure out mods or find complementary loadouts.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Zectico

[DeMonkey]

14 minutes ago, Zectico said:

You're forgetting that Iron Staff is an Exalted weapon, and doesn't follow normal weapon rules. The size of the staff changes with certain combos.

I was wondering who gave me the Haha emote.

How exactly am I forgetting that? Yes, the size changes. It grows longer during the unreliable dash attack, and shrinks for the AoE slams. What of it?

15 minutes ago, Zectico said:

I'm arguing that Exal. weapons rely more on flat DPS due to not having Blood Rush: the strongest mod for melee crit builds.

And yet they could still get the effect regardless, albeit up to a maximum of 90% crit*combo. Many builds, if not most, did in fact utilise this.

16 minutes ago, Zectico said:

Channeled exalted weapons also share universally low status (10%), with the only exception being Artemis Bow at 20%.

Do you even know what weapons we're talking about? Ironically the main frame being discussed here has triple this supposed universal value, and Excal players using EB would utilise Chromatic Blade, giving the weapon far more than 10% before considering weapon modding.

20 minutes ago, Zectico said:

However, Exal. weapons do have high base damage

Not anymore, comparatively. Ability strength goes someway to helping, but shouldn't be required just to make the weapon do as much damage as basic melee weapons.

20 minutes ago, Zectico said:

This is because Wukong is the current meta by a massive margin.

[Genoscythe]

Il y a 2 heures, Zectico a dit :

No, it's because this entire thread is based around Wukong and his staff. Scroll through and Wukong shows up in nearly every comment.

This is because Wukong is the current meta by a massive margin. Meta frames tend to have a lot of players who are quick to blame the system rather than figure out mods or find complementary loadouts.

Baruuk is currently laughing at Wukong in terms of exalted weapon eficiency and damage. To be honest the staff never was Wukongs main attraction at least for me, and still isn't. But having a weapon that uses energy per second while being far worse than my Dakra Prime is something people might want to think about. And having a frame modded to 300% STR with augment should not be the only way for exalted weapons to be superior to normal melee in at least some way.

[selig_fay]

1 час назад, Genoscythe сказал:

And having a frame modded to 300% STR with augment should not be the only way for exalted weapons to be superior to normal melee in at least some way.

It's weird, I've been saying this for a year when it comes to Dex Pixie, but people were fine about it. But when it came to popular frames, everyone suddenly realized that this is bad.

Conventional weapons will still improve, while sublime weapons will simply become obsolete over time. This is the case. If DE don't make constant revisions, then exalted weapons just won't make sense. It's just a weapon that uses energy instead of ammunition. Someone has a problem with ammunition?

Edited November 5, 2019 by zhellon

[Genoscythe]

il y a 9 minutes, zhellon a dit :

It's weird, I've been saying this for a year when it comes to Dex Pixie, but people were fine about it. But when it came to popular frames, everyone suddenly realized that this is bad.

Conventional weapons will still improve, while sublime weapons will simply become obsolete over time. This is the case. If DE don't make constant revisions, then exalted weapons just won't make sense. It's just a weapon that uses energy instead of ammunition. Someone has a problem with ammunition?

I myself have shelved titania, can't say much about dex pixia. Overall if a frame is popular the feedback is just more constant and numerous and it's likely to get fixed sooner because a bigger crowd will be happy then, but that's a general effect of demographics I guess.

[selig_fay]

1 минуту назад, Genoscythe сказал:

I myself have shelved titania, can't say much about dex pixia. Overall if a frame is popular the feedback is just more constant and numerous and it's likely to get fixed sooner because a bigger crowd will be happy then, but that's a general effect of demographics I guess.

I agree with that. 

But to be honest, I would suggest giving up the use of sublime weapons and just providing a slot of appropriate weapons that players can use as an ability. (For example, the sword slot for Excalibur). Just so the developers would spend less time on balancing, and the players would have received more options. If a better weapon comes out, the ability will also be enhanced with this weapon. In principle in this the crux of the equipment. 

[DatDarkOne]

Who is this person who is trying to tell @DeMonkey (who is a well known Wukong main) that he doesn't know what he's talking about in regards to Wukong.   

That's about as funny as someone telling me that I don't know Ivara.  LMAO 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

14 hours ago, Arkoryon said:

It's insane how quickly these abilities can become so redundant ;_;

Exalted weapons will always be at risk of redundancy if they are only an additional means of weapon damage.

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Who is this person who is trying to tell @DeMonkey (who is a well known Wukong main) that he doesn't know what he's talking about in regards to Wukong.

Someone who gave up really easily, almost like they realised that everything they said was utterly false.

Everything I posted is readily available information as well, so I don't know what the point of it all was.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Exalted weapons will always be at risk of redundancy if they are only an additional means of weapon damage.

True, which is why they need to have unique effects alongside them.

As far as I'm concerned the balancing of the weapon should be separated into "weapon" and "ability". The weapon side of balancing should deal solely with weapon stats and where it should fit alongside every other weapon, the weapon would be treated as a weapon, the "ability" side of balancing should deal with the weapons unique effect, the power of said effect and the energy cost for that effect.

E.g. Excalibur's Sword would be treated like a sword (a good sword, even) and the ability balancing would relate to the waves it spews out.

Baruuk would have much the same, with his fists being considered just fists, but his waves benefiting from Warframe modding.

Wukong would... Oh right, yeah, there's literally no justification for Wukong to have any energy cost at all right now, silly me.

[Zectico]

8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Someone who gave up really easily, almost like they realised that everything they said was utterly false.

It was 1 am for me when you replied; not a good time for me to be responding to game forums, and you seemed a bit heated at the time.

You accept that most of the forum so far has been about Wukong though. I get that Iron Staff doesn't feel as good to use atm, but I honestly don't think a buff is needed. The staff is not bad by any means in its current state, just not god-like - similar to Chroma's massive nerf, and yet he is still good despite how half his abilities are literally useless.

8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Everything I posted is readily available information as well, so I don't know what the point of it all was.

Yeah, that's my bad. I only looked at the wiki, which has Iron Staff at 10% status. I didn't check in-game.

17 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

How exactly am I forgetting that? Yes, the size changes. It grows longer during the unreliable dash attack, and shrinks for the AoE slams. What of it?

Since we're back to Wukong and DatDarkOne vouches for your expertise, I'd like if you could please try to see where I'm coming from. I'll be brief:

CLS (forward block) has a 300% range bonus and SCT (forward) is 200%. With only P. Reach, the range of CLS is comparable to 1.0 dispo polearms with P. Reach + Spring Blade + Range Riven. Pretty strong as SCT is 4x 360°.

At 166% str, Iron Staff deals 400+ total unmodded, The highest for weapons is only 300 total on Gram P. and 360 on Arca Titron, with also a -20% atk speed from Iron Staff. With 25% cc and 30% sc, the staff is pretty solid - at least in my opinion.

The range bonus and negative damage modifiers on SCT, plus RBR spam makes me think that the ability may have been intended for CC, as Wukong has no direct CC abilities (range + his 2 might be something, but range overall seems bad on him. Please tell me if otherwise though).

The TTK on Iron Staff seems just a bit less than new meta CD/BR/WW melees (seems like ~20% less against alloy and ferrite via 2 60/60 mods for Corrosive, but I can't be sure). I think the biggest problem is low slash dispo. My Iron Staff only has 2 forma though, so there's definitely room for improvement. I'd really like to find a high-end gas build, but corrosive seems by far the best atm.

[Edit] Here's how I use Wukong. I honestly think his staff is very solid atm. (Sorry for bad quality!)

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Zectico

[DatDarkOne]

52 minutes ago, Zectico said:

I'd really like to find a high-end gas build, 

High end Gas build is fairly simple to build for certain weapons.  All you really need is decent status chance (easily achieved with 2 60/60 mods), Condition Overload, and Slash for the overkill.  Using this method you would have a Slash/Gas/CO build that practically feeds itself.   That's not even considering the other 4-5 mods in the other slots.   As for how to do this with Iron Staff, I direct you to DeMonkey as he knows the Ins and Outs of Iron Staff much better than I do.  

Edited November 6, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[Hayzemet]

En 4/11/2019 a las 19:32, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 dijo:

All Exalted weapons have received a massive drop in power due to Condition Overload now being terrible. Wukongs staff has definitely felt that the most since exalted can not use blood rush so CO was the thing holding it up.

The best work around I’ve seen for Excal is having corrosive and heat on exalted blade with its augment. I just hope they revert the CO nerf so it doesn’t have to come to that.

 

I didn't felt the nerf because that has always been my build, on EXCA

EDIT: I just flet the nerf, it is terrible and I wanna off myself

Edited November 6, 2019 by Hayzemet

[Gurpgork]

3 hours ago, Zectico said:

The staff is not bad by any means in its current state, just not god-like 

It costs 5 energy per second, blocks your energy regeneration, and does less damage than normal melee weapons. Not to mention that we lost the Gladiator set for it, which was the only workaround we had to raise its damage. 

I guess it isn't unusable if you look at it in isolation, but the opportunity cost is important to consider for this evaluation; if it cannot compete with the weapon it is blocking you from using, then it is bad.

3 hours ago, Zectico said:

At 166% str, Iron Staff deals 400+ total unmodded, The highest for weapons is only 300 total on Gram P. and 360 on Arca Titron, with also a -20% atk speed from Iron Staff. With 25% cc and 30% sc, the staff is pretty solid - at least in my opinion.

In no universe can 33% more base damage make up for Blood Rush. 

Like the Gram Prime may have 100 less base damage, but it can also red crit without too much effort and has a higher crit multiplier. Unless we're talking about 400 base damage vs. something like 35, then a weapon that struggles to hit orange crits just can't keep up with something that can red crit. 

3 hours ago, Zectico said:

The TTK on Iron Staff seems just a bit less than new meta CD/BR/WW melees (seems like ~20% less against alloy and ferrite via 2 60/60 mods for Corrosive, but I can't be sure).

It's here that I'm going to reiterate that the Iron Staff costs 5 energy per second to use, and is one of Wukong's four abilities. 

Also, 20% slower TTK isn't exactly pencil shavings. That's a very significant difference. 

If this ability is going to cost 5 energy per second and reduce your DPS by 20% when you activate it, then it had better give you something else really worthwhile for your trouble, and it just doesn't have that. It has a little bit more base range and some slam combos. That can't make up for its drawbacks. 

Like for all the trouble that this ability puts you through, its output should be 20% better than the meta CO/BR melee weapons. If you are seeking to get the most you can out of Wukong's kit, then there is no situation where using Primal Fury is better than just using a normal melee weapon instead. Not when you can save energy and increase your DPS by doing so.