Exalted weapons need to be looked at.

[DeMonkey]

4 hours ago, Zectico said:

I get that Iron Staff doesn't feel as good to use atm, but I honestly don't think a buff is needed.

You feel the fact that it is worse than basic melee, yet costs a whopping 5 energy per second to be an acceptable state for it to be in?

Why am I, as a Wukong player, being punished with a ridiculous energy drain for using a sub-par weapon?

4 hours ago, Zectico said:

CLS (forward block) has a 300% range bonus and SCT (forward) is 200%. With only P. Reach, the range of CLS is comparable to 1.0 dispo polearms with P. Reach + Spring Blade + Range Riven. Pretty strong as SCT is 4x 360°.

Test them, those values are incorrect.

Forward Block will hit an enemy about 15m away, Speen attack will hit enemies 8m away. That's not 300%/200% in the slightest.

The range for the forward block may be comparable, but it's actual area in which it hits is not as it's an incredibly narrow line of damage that also moves you forward, potentially throwing you off. It's an unreliable attack in actual missions.

4 hours ago, Zectico said:

At 166% str, Iron Staff deals 400+ total unmodded

Yes, "if you build your warframe for it, your staff can do just as much base damage as a normal weapon".

A) That's just ridiculous in itself.

B) No, it won't do as much damage because normal melee gets better mods.

4 hours ago, Zectico said:

The range bonus and negative damage modifiers on SCT, plus RBR spam makes me think that the ability may have been intended for CC

You're reaching.

The ability you're looking for is "Celestial Stomp".

4 hours ago, Zectico said:

The TTK on Iron Staff seems just a bit less than new meta CD/BR/WW melees

Cool, so what we do is we remove the energy cost on the staff since it's worse, and give it to those new meta melee weapons. Then we'll see how everyone else feels about an excessive energy cost on a basic weapon.

Edited November 6, 2019 by DeMonkey

[Teridax68]

This is why I'm not a fan of Exalted Weapons as fully-fledged abilities: when they're an ability with an Energy cost, they need to be more powerful than the equivalent regular weapons, otherwise there's no reason to use them (as is the case now), which basically ends up with those weapons replacing the player's regular arsenal when that frame is equipped. When the weapon is more unique, like Excal's Exalted Blade, there's at least a case to be made for it having a unique playstyle or functionality, but in the case of Wukong's Iron Staff, it's literally just a staff weapon with its own particular stance, and no other special traits: thus, choosing whether or not to use the Iron Staff over one's equipped melee weapon is a matter of pure DPS calculations, one the Iron Staff is losing hard post-update. If, by contrast, these frames had access to these weapons as part of their arsenal, in the same vein as Garuda, they could be equally powerful and still worth picking for flavor reasons (though I still also think current Exalted weapons could still use some buffs, plus some unique gameplay somewhere, e.g. the Iron Staff being able to change in size), while also letting those frames have an extra ability.

[selig_fay]

27 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

When the weapon is more unique, like Excal's Exalted Blade

To be honest, I don't really feel that Excalibur's weapons are unique. Now everyone has the right to block 100% damage and auto-blocking. Conventional weapons can still be better in close combat. And waves can be obtained with the help of Fluctuus. The only thing that is unique is the hidden damage multiplier for waves on blinded mobs. But in my opinion-it is negligible. 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

they need to be more powerful than the equivalent regular weapons, otherwise there's no reason to use them (as is the case now)

Yep.

I've said for years that exalted weapons were barely more useful than top tier weapons of the same slot, with the same risk of being obsolete with every new shiny meta weapon to get released.. I only had a few people side with me on that until this last melee update proved that exalted weapons really are just weapons that cost energy.  As long as they don't provide some other unique feature to them that will still be a risk even if they buff the damage.

As far as Exalted Blade though, I don't think it's actually too unique, functionally, except that it's just a long range melee weapon just like Baruuk's. If anything, Wukong should've been the main frame to have a long range melee weapon. I'd actually like Iron Staff to have had the option to drastically increase the melee range (like the sexy pre-western release version of Wukong) even at a much higher energy cost. This would allow him to keep normal cost at default, but then boost it to super range for brief spurts when necessary. Channeling button would've been a good option for this, but I guess that's out now (I haven't gotten the new melee update yet).

The exalted weapon abilities do need additional unique features beyond just dps though. I just haven't figured out what those should be, but Valkyr is a poorly implemented example of what that could be. She has an exalted weapon, yet that is only half of the ability since it also includes invulnerability with it's own mechanics tied in as well. The others could all have additional effects that benefit the frame or even the team itself. They could provide appropriate team buffs according to their theme with their exalted weapons active (Ex: Exalted Blade could provide a melee damage boost to allies, or Wukong could provide damage resistance to allies with Iron Staff active). These aren't well thought out examples, but just a direction these types of abilities could move in.

[GreyEnneract]

I was very surprised when I saw that DE didn't increase any of the Exalted's damage numbers.
Seeing as the whole reason they buffed normal melee weapon's damage was to make up for the lack of normal hits scaling from combo, and the nerfs to CO and BR.
Exalteds can't even utilize BR, and now they also just don't scale from normal hits either. Contrary to popular belief, Baruuk is suffering as well. 
Not sure what they were thinking.

[Hayzemet]

I was so wrong, just played Excalibur on arbitration and ESO, Exalted Blade is S#&$ compared to my Skiajati, literally, it can't kill drones, either range or attack speed is bad, cannot use bloodrush even tho it was nerfed, cannot use amalgam mods, has no riven mods, with CO nerfed EB is nerfed as well, if I change my weapon it keeps the combo multiplier, EB does not keep combo multiplier, the waves are underwhelming and the stance is clunky, for the love of God DE, buff Exalted weapons. 

[Zectico]

15 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Like for all the trouble that this ability puts you through, its output should be 20% better than the meta CO/BR melee weapons. If you are seeking to get the most you can out of Wukong's kit, then there is no situation where using Primal Fury is better than just using a normal melee weapon instead. Not when you can save energy and increase your DPS by doing so. 

It's just that the staff can already kill heavy units in under 3 seconds. The newly buffed melees are pretty insane, but 0.6 seconds doesn't make much of a difference to me.

Exalted Blade definitely needs a buff though.

15 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Test them, those values are incorrect.

I've added a (crappy) video to my previous post, check it real quick?

Edited November 6, 2019 by Zectico

[Hayzemet]

hace 1 minuto, Zectico dijo:

It's just that the staff can already kill heavy units in under 3 seconds. The newly buffed melees are pretty insane, but 0.6 seconds doesn't make much of a difference to me.

You don't get it do you? Its not about how strong it is its about being rendered useless, what good is an ability if it is better not to use it?

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, Zectico said:

I've added a (crappy) video to my previous post, check it real quick?

You appear to be avoiding actual arguments in favour of continuing to push the notion that we're irrationally wanting a buff to something that's actually totally okay. So I was right about my ad hominem call.

Weird how you quote me stating that the range values you presented are false and then ask me to watch a video that has nothing to do with range values.

[Arkoryon]

@Zectico I think the main point of disagreement here is the fact that, while Wukong's staff might not be bad, it's still pretty much useless when compared with other weapons, which really isn't ok at all. This is also big because a lot of enemies in-game are straight up resistant to abilities in general, making it even less useful. 

The video you posted is fine, I'm not denying the damage is good, but it certainly isn't good enough compared to how it was before. Keep in mind that you used the clone here too and applied status procs before hand. Doing so with normal melee is so much more efficient it's crazy.

There is currently no insentive whatsoever to use his 4th ability. Even if there are other frames with that problem, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be looked at too (Chroma is a huge example here). I'm mentioning Wukong because he's the one I noticed the biggest decrease in performance with, over what seems to be a decision that wasn't completely thought out. 

I say it does certainly need a buff of some kind. Even if it isn't direct, the performance before the update was perfect. Now? It's mediocre. 

I would actually prefer him to get a completely different ability if it just can't be fixed. Just so long as it's useful. 

 

[Crousere]

Wukongs staff is indeed pretty terrible. Also the hold right click+attack still combo does really poor damage and the lunging attack usually misses and takes Wukong out of the battle. I think they could fix it with small numerical adjustments

[nooneyouknow13]

As someone who used Surging Dash to easily maintain combo with EB before, standing and neutral block combos are now around the same power as a 3.5 to 4x combo multiplier before. But moving attacks now deal only 100% damage with no modifiers. Ironically, this also ended up a large nerf to slash dash, because the waves generated by it are still 100% damage, with no combo bonus.

Swapping Surging Dash for Furious Javelin, dropping CO for Organ Shatter, and changing from corrosive/cold to pure heat lets me output around 25% to 30% more dps than before The Old Blood dropped, provided I can stand still, even accounting for the loss of a 45% blood rush Stat stick. But my energy drain is higher since I have to use radial javelin, and my damage while moving or using slash dash is around 25% of what it used to be.

I can't actually ever call EB worse than a normal weapon though, because it still deals straight up double damage when used as an actual melee weapon.

Allowing Exalted Weapons to use Acolyte mods would help bring things back some. Slash Dash likely just needs fundamental changes like higher base damage and crit. It's straight up the weakest melee mod scaling skill in the game right now.

 

 

[JoeySparks]

So is there currently a good build to make Ivara's exalted bow good? I don't really do alot of in-game research, so I can't tell whether it's better or not just to rely on something like a multi-forma daikyu. I kind of feel like exalted weapons need to be intentionally far stronger than normal weapons, as, if they aren't, what's the point in having them as an ability? The only exalted weapon that I have found worth using so far is Hildryn's blasters, but that's cause I have them at 40k rad damage at max power strength.

Edited December 23, 2019 by bomberman1770

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

It may have been mentioned, but I havent seen it so:

the reason exalted weapons feel so poor is that while literally every other melee got stat buffs between 2-3x base damage increases, exalted weapons gone nothing. Out of the gate this means that exalted are significantly weaker then before because the base damage gap between a exalted and a basic melee has shrunk. 

For excal, the CO nerf did hit him since the meta build uses CO and chromatic blade, but excal as of late has the  niche of sentient hunting, and he will probably forever keep that title due to his kit. His damage is still good, offset from getting free finisher damage with his 2, and for that reason is able to shrug off the nerfs better then most

Valkyr (imo) just feels worse and worse with each patch. She doesnt have much going for her and honestly needs a good look at to try and bring her back to par. 

Wukong is “fine”, but the biggest thing taken from him that weakens him was the loss of scaling combo. Wukong was the only exalted user that could reliably use combo multiplier buffs, since drifting contact worked on him and you could use a helios deconstructer stat stick for gladiator mods, or mini bloodrush. He was the only exalted user that could therefore scale just as well as normal melees, and his crit was bonkers when gladrush was in high gear. 

Baruuk is unique in that he lost a looooot of power with CO being removed (pretty much the only thing that let him deal with high armor) but he now has insane gains off of using sacrificial steel and heavy attacks. Due to heavy attacks baruuk easily has the highest per-hit damage of all exalted users possible currently, but his other combos, and im being generous when I say this, feel like complete ass. His “move forward” and “stand still” combos need to be swapped quickly, because currently trying to fluidly use those combos is just painful. 

And then there’s poor Khora and Atlas, who also got a straight nerf in the fact that they cant scale off combo as well as before. Before they could hit up to 4x bonus damage, now it builds faster, yes, but they can only reach 3x bonus damage based on combo. 

Why DE why you do dis. Why to my boi Atlas

Edited December 24, 2019 by (PS4)CommanderC2121
Clarification

[AlphaRyuuxx]

On 2019-11-06 at 10:08 PM, nooneyouknow13 said:

As someone who used Surging Dash to easily maintain combo with EB before, standing and neutral block combos are now around the same power as a 3.5 to 4x combo multiplier before. But moving attacks now deal only 100% damage with no modifiers. Ironically, this also ended up a large nerf to slash dash, because the waves generated by it are still 100% damage, with no combo bonus.

Swapping Surging Dash for Furious Javelin, dropping CO for Organ Shatter, and changing from corrosive/cold to pure heat lets me output around 25% to 30% more dps than before The Old Blood dropped, provided I can stand still, even accounting for the loss of a 45% blood rush Stat stick. But my energy drain is higher since I have to use radial javelin, and my damage while moving or using slash dash is around 25% of what it used to be.

I can't actually ever call EB worse than a normal weapon though, because it still deals straight up double damage when used as an actual melee weapon.

Allowing Exalted Weapons to use Acolyte mods would help bring things back some. Slash Dash likely just needs fundamental changes like higher base damage and crit. It's straight up the weakest melee mod scaling skill in the game right now.

 

 

Pure heat? Woudn't corro heat be better?

Also I feel like for excal, slash dash is the least of his abilities that need attention. Granted, yes, slash dash does need a buff, but I think replacing radial javelin for a defensive utility would be better. And then allowing waves to build combo at a reduced rate would be super good for excal along with an all across the board stat buff to EB. 

4 hours ago, bomberman1770 said:

. I kind of feel like exalted weapons need to be intentionally far stronger than normal weapons, as, if they aren't, what's the point in having them as an ability? The only exalted weapon that I have found worth using so far is Hildryn's blasters, but that's cause I have them at 40k rad damage at max power strength.

Almost every ranged exalted (primary/secondary) are good. Mesa's pistols are insane, titanias guns are good, ivaras bow is good. And the reason is because they are allowed to run the exact same build their normal counter part does. The reason why exalted melees are bad, asside from being ignored during the massive stat boost every other weapon got, was because they can't run essential mods that base weapons do, ie bloodrush

[selig_fay]

10 часов назад, AlphaRyuuxx сказал:

Almost every ranged exalted (primary/secondary) are good. Mesa's pistols are insane, titanias guns are good, ivaras bow is good. And the reason is because they are allowed to run the exact same build their normal counter part does. The reason why exalted melees are bad, asside from being ignored during the massive stat boost every other weapon got, was because they can't run essential mods that base weapons do, ie bloodrush

I don't want it to be considered a weapon. It's like Wisps Beam, which can be modified separately. Just an ability, not a weapon.

On the other hand, the rest of the secondary and primary weapons are just "good". But I can take just a "good" conventional weapon. Or I can take the "insane" normal weapon. (Which in the case of Titania is just not possible because of the razorwing mechanics.) And melee has the same thing. You're saddened by the damage figures because they're just "good" when they should be "insane" 

[AlphaRyuuxx]

13 hours ago, zhellon said:

It's like Wisps Beam, which can be modified separately.

What? Wisps' beam can't be modded. It gains bonus effects from motes and holding down left click.

 

13 hours ago, zhellon said:

On the other hand, the rest of the secondary and primary weapons are just "good". But I can take just a "good" conventional weapon. Or I can take the "insane" normal weapon. (Which in the case of Titania is just not possible because of the razorwing mechanics.) And melee has the same thing. You're saddened by the damage figures because they're just "good" when they should be "insane" 

I mean another way to remedy this aside from making them just work like regular abilities and avoid the whole modding separately thing would be for these weapons to just copy the base stats/mods of whatever weapon we're holding and its base damage gets upped by power strength. That's the only way to ensure that whenever we use our exalteds, its guaranteed to be stronger, or they could just do an all across the board stat boost to everything for all exalteds.  

[DeMonkey]

On 2019-12-24 at 12:58 AM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Wukong is “fine”

Shakes angrily.

I recognise that that's a tentative "fine", I'm just mad that a "fine"  weapon costs 5 damn energy per second.

[selig_fay]

10 часов назад, AlphaRyuuxx сказал:

What? Wisps' beam can't be modded. It gains bonus effects from motes and holding down left click.

I have made a comparison to show that regulators differ from ordinary ability only in that they can be modified separately. You can't use regulators as weapons, like pistols. You can make a comparison with Dex Pixia. With Dex Pixia, I can shoot whenever I want, I can miss, I can do headshot, I have full control of this weapon. With regulators, you don't have control over them, because it's not a weapon, it's an ability that looks like a weapon.

On the other hand, the problem with exalted weapons is that they are just ordinary weapons that try to seem like abilities, but remain ordinary weapons.

10 часов назад, AlphaRyuuxx сказал:

I mean another way to remedy this aside from making them just work like regular abilities and avoid the whole modding separately thing would be for these weapons to just copy the base stats/mods of whatever weapon we're holding and its base damage gets upped by power strength. That's the only way to ensure that whenever we use our exalteds, its guaranteed to be stronger, or they could just do an all across the board stat boost to everything for all exalteds.

Inheriting the statistics and mechanics of conventional weapons would be fine.

On the other hand, I don't think a regular buff can change anything, unless it changes the game itself. I can give an example of the same Dex Pixia. This weapon has a good DPS and a dps buff is not necessary. The problem with this weapon is that you almost never use this DPS, because it doesn't matter against level 100 opponents and regular weapons can handle almost as well, if not better.

One more thing, if you want a weapon inheritance system, it's better that the damage formula is calculated as 100% DPSWeapon * (1 + strength/100) or something like that, so that even at 10% strength you can still use the weapon effectively. The old system by which we must sacrifice our abilities must cease to influence this.

Edited December 25, 2019 by zhellon

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

5 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Shakes angrily.

I recognise that that's a tentative "fine", I'm just mad that a "fine"  weapon costs 5 damn energy per second.

He’s only “fine” because the rest of hit kit is still viable and honestly quite good.

Staff is weak but its also far better then shudders Hysteria, and with one exception better then serene storm too. 

All the exalted need damage buffs though, and mod parody for them to be truly viable, or need to instead have an unique component that makes you choose them over conventional melees. Excal has the waves, and baruuk does as well, although his damage falls off hard lategame. Valkyr (as much as her kit needs help) does have straight up invincibility.

If they dont want to buff Staff, they need to give it something to make it unique so you want to use it over a basic melee. 

[nooneyouknow13]

On 2019-12-23 at 6:24 PM, AlphaRyuuxx said:

Pure heat? Woudn't corro heat be better?

Also I feel like for excal, slash dash is the least of his abilities that need attention. Granted, yes, slash dash does need a buff, but I think replacing radial javelin for a defensive utility would be better. And then allowing waves to build combo at a reduced rate would be super good for excal along with an all across the board stat buff to EB. 

Almost every ranged exalted (primary/secondary) are good. Mesa's pistols are insane, titanias guns are good, ivaras bow is good. And the reason is because they are allowed to run the exact same build their normal counter part does. The reason why exalted melees are bad, asside from being ignored during the massive stat boost every other weapon got, was because they can't run essential mods that base weapons do, ie bloodrush

For most stuff I went back to corrosive/heat. Pure heat is higher dps if the targets live long enough, because of the way heat procs work now. Every time you apply a heat proc, the damage from the new proc is added to the previous one, and the duration of the proc is reset, allowing the damage to roll infinitely high. I also gave up on Furious Javelin, too much upkeep for what amounts to just overkill damage. EB hits insanely hard as long as you're actually striking with the blade, and the Steel mod buffs really helped for damage consistency.

As far as waves building combo, it wouldn't change much of anything. Combo counter only affects heavy attacks, and special cases like slash dash getting 25% of the bonus. It has no effect whatsoever on EB's light attacks or the wave damage, unless you're trying to stat stick gladiator mods. 3 gladiator mods in your weapon would give you 30% of base crit per combo stack, which for EB right now only means 4.5% crit per stack. It's just not a meaningful enough of a bonus to warrant using Drifting Contact or locking your focus into Naramon for now. 

Edited December 26, 2019 by nooneyouknow13

[CopperBezel]

On 2019-12-23 at 6:58 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

And then there’s poor Khora and Atlas, who also got a straight nerf in the fact that they cant scale off combo as well as before. Before they could hit up to 4x bonus damage, now it builds faster, yes, but they can only reach 3x bonus damage based on combo. 

Khora gets Blood Rush now, and always had the option of rivens, so being limited to 3.75x total damage is not really an issue. Especially when you get there by the time the old combo counter would have been 3x. = / With all the right mods and full combo, she can deal 4M damage in a 10m radius AoE. Realistically it's more like 200k on a build that doesn't really prioritize damage. She genuinely is fine or better than as a serious damage dealer. I would argue ... somewhat not fine in the opposite direction.

Meanwhile, exalted melees don't benefit from that multiplier at all, yet also can't use Blood Rush, and I'm just not sure what the intention is. I never used Wukong until after his rework, and only a bit before Old Blood, but his staff at least dealt more damage than a random melee before either had a combo stack. Post Old Blood, I have him using a reasonably built Orthos Prime, and pressing 4 is just a way to turn it into a Nerf bat with a clunkier stance. I mean ... he's bloody great with an efficiency and duration build, able to fly quickly around the level, instantly pull himself out of any tight situation, heal himself and pets, build some decent armor with a little bit of awkward dancing, and summon the most useful spectre in Warframe. Every part of his kit that isn't the staff works with everything else and comes with those little bonuses like, oh, yeah, this removes status, too, and this draws enemy fire and is shared with the twin, and so on. But his 4 is one of those abilities now like Mesa's 1 that just ... literally accomplishes nothing and doesn't need to be there. 

I genuinely don't know why exalted melees don't get the +25% total damage per combo stack that combo-counter-modified abilities do. I honestly thought until now they did and that's why they don't get Blood Rush, and something was going wrong in my simulacrum testing with the Iron Staff. Now their not getting Blood Rush just seems mean and random. 

But yeah, whether it's a good, middling, or bad one, every other exalted weapon does at least have an ability tied to it, whether it's Mesa's aimbot or Excalibur's beams or Valkyr's built in life steal. Nobody's quite out in the cold as much as Wukong is here. Given that he's the new flavor of speed and invisibility for cheesing through any linear mission, with a decoy to boot, I suggest his staff gets an instant disarm effect. = P

Edited December 26, 2019 by CopperBezel

[selig_fay]

7 часов назад, CopperBezel сказал:

Nobody's quite out in the cold as much as Wukong is here.

Dex Pixia and DIvata. It's just an archwing weapon with no special abilities. And I can say that if I could put in a regular archwing weapon, it would be much better.

For Wukong, even if his staff is bad, you can use it when you not taking melee on a mission because of the clone's weapons mechanics. This makes a difference to the ability set. I mean, even if it's bad now, it still works because of the way Wukong is designed as a whole.

Edited December 26, 2019 by zhellon

[CopperBezel]

Er, the ability is Razorwing. The "turning into a tiny archwing" in the first place. Good or bad, you don't have access to any other weapons in that state. Diwata happens to be awful and Dex Pixia happens to be quite alright for what it is, but whether they're a perk or a restriction of Razorwing, they are innately tied to the ability in the same way that Excalibur's no-longer-good sword is tied to his ability to shoot sword beams, or the advantages and restrictions that come with Mesa becoming a stationary aimbot when she draws her Regulators. They are things that the 4s do that are not the weapon.

As for Wukong, exalted weapons ignore [weapon type]-only sortie conditions, and I can't think of another context in which "not taking melee" is applicable to what you're saying. The clone's weapon mechanics are to always prefer the opposite to what you're using, unless the 4 is cast, in which case he'll use the Iron Staff exclusively. If you want to force him to use melee, you just don't use it yourself. If you want to use melee and also to have your twin use melee, you're both stuck with the staff, which I guess is a thing that the 4 does? It doesn't work because it's bad. Which is something it has in common with Diwata, I guess? It doesn't "make a difference to his ability set" because it is always bad and you and your clone will always deal less damage after pressing 4. 

Wukong's kit is well designed and he "still works" regardless of having a fourth ability, but there's no way in which his 4 "works". I just don't know why this is difficult to get across. I mean, it's fine, because unlike Excalibur he doesn't need it. It's still an obsolete ability. 

Now is still definitely the time to let exalteds have Blood Rush, because they don't have anything else going for them anymore.

Edited December 26, 2019 by CopperBezel

[selig_fay]

@CopperBezel I said that you can refuse to equip normal weapons and then your clone will use the main weapon always, as long as you do not use staff. That is, you give up melee weapons, but still have them. I'm not saying The Wukong staff is good, I'm just saying it makes sense for the set.

And Titania razorwing at the moment has a problem with the fact that you can't use it for 4 seconds. Either you are saving for razorwing 250+ strength, but then you have to hold the ability all the time, because you will just die without it, since your defense is weak, or this ability is weaker than the standard weapon and you only use it for movement and fan play. 

Dex Pixia powerful weapon? No. Here's 170% strength against brakk kuva. Now imagine that I took rhino at 100% strength and just drove this ability into the ground.

Спойлер

 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by zhellon