Guessing the Requiem mods in correct order

[No1NParticular31]

50 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

When you guess order wrong, does it co some a charge?  

For brute force (max 21 combos if really unlucky guesser) on 8 mods in random order / selection, will it consume a charge when I guess wrong?  

If I get order right on one but not other two, does it continue to eat a charge each time I guess with mod in right order?

No, it only consumes a charge when you get the order correct and get the option to Kill or Convert the Lich.

The max combos is 19 if you guess wrong every time.

[ResidentOrb21]

If you know none of the mods then its like 336 ways to get it correct.

[BDMblue]

18 hours ago, Vaeldious said:

Assuming players are adding one mod at a time to their Paragon, since theres still a bunch of players that don't have all the Murmurs yet (ie, going into a mission with only 1 equipped), hence *WORST* case scenario. 

If you don’t have all the mods it’s going to take an infinite number of runs. That would be worst case in your book.

Also ya 4 a 1/3 followed by a 50/50.

[dogbus]

4 hours ago, BDMblue said:

That would be worst case in your book.

Nope. Thanks for trying to tell me what I meant though, I'm sure you're a far better expert on my rationale and reasoning than I ever could hope to be.
 

4 hours ago, ResidentOrb21 said:

If you know none of the mods then its like 336 ways to get it correct.

Other people may disagree with my assessment of 21, but it's nowhere close to 336, simply because you do partial matches and none of the words repeat. 

Meaning: You add the attempts together, not multiply.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Vaeldious

[BDMblue]

26 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

Nope. Thanks for trying to tell me what I meant though, I'm sure you're a far better expert on my rationale and reasoning than I ever could hope to be.

Well to be fair I think you said that lie to cover up the fact that you were wrong and embarrassed. Im dyslexic so I spell like a 10 year old I’ve done it too. Just found it funny so I posted. 😄

[dogbus]

No, I stand by my personal assessment of worst case scenario, as it was derived from abstract practical application, not absolute technicality. Nothing to be embarrassed about....especially on the internet. Of course, you're entitled to your opinions, as am I. 

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

1 hour ago, Vaeldious said:

Nope. Thanks for trying to tell me what I meant though, I'm sure you're a far better expert on my rationale and reasoning than I ever could hope to be.
 

Other people may disagree with my assessment of 21, but it's nowhere close to 336, simply because you do partial matches and none of the words repeat. 

Meaning: You add the attempts together, not multiply.

No. Possible permutations (assuming none can repeat, which is the case) is figured using the formula nPr=n!/(n-r)! So 8!/5! = 336. Good try though.

Edited November 6, 2019 by (XB1)Demon Intellect

[dogbus]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Demon Intellect said:

No. Possible permutations (assuming none can repeat, which is the case) is figured using the formula nPr=n!/(n-r)! So 8!/5! = 336. Good try though.

You must not have actually encountered a lich. Possible combinations total, sure, I'll agree that its 336. Possible attempts to brute force? Not even close. 

 

3 hours ago, Vaeldious said:

it's nowhere close to 336, simply because you do partial matches

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Vaeldious

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

47 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

You must not have actually encountered a lich. Possible combinations total, sure, I'll agree that its 336. Possible attempts to brute force? Not even close. 

 

 

Possible combinations are still possible combinations. 

[dogbus]

Except you don't have to try every single combination. That's the difference, and what we're talking about here, not total number of possible combinations.

There's no point in trying A-B-C, A-C-B, A-B-D, A-D-B etc, when you already know that A is incorrect for the 1st match. That's how partial matching works on Liches. 

There's also no point in trying to argue with a console user that hasn't even experienced the content yet firsthand.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Vaeldious

[ResidentOrb21]

18 hours ago, Vaeldious said:

Nope. Thanks for trying to tell me what I meant though, I'm sure you're a far better expert on my rationale and reasoning than I ever could hope to be.
 

Other people may disagree with my assessment of 21, but it's nowhere close to 336, simply because you do partial matches and none of the words repeat. 

Meaning: You add the attempts together, not multiply.

I'm talking about in 1 attempt theres 336 ways to get it right he first try. without knowing anything.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I guess I would have just attached the mods to the three shields the Lich has. So if you're carrying the first word you can blast through the first shield...Now if the second word is not correct you're not getting through that second shield until your word matches up and so on with the third and final shield from what I've seen in videos and screen shots...Once you can take down all three shields then you can ram the knife home or convert...but, this is idea is based on limited data, so it's more of a gut reaction to what's observable in this whole mess...

Edited November 6, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[-CdG-Zilchy]

With the changes made it only took 5 missions to get 2 murmurs done so that narrows down the guessing game considerably. The 3rd murmur takes much longer so if you want to brute force it that's your choice.

Edited November 6, 2019 by -CdG-Zilchy

[Obviousclone]

On 2019-11-05 at 2:27 PM, ResidentOrb21 said:

If you know none of the mods then its like 336 ways to get it correct.

It's not at all like that.

Let me describe to you in story how it works (as someone who has done like 5 of them).

Let's describe the requiem mods as A,B,C, etc. instead of their actual names of "Lohk" and "Ris" (because it's hard to track). There's 8 requiem mods, and there's 3 slots for your parazon. You cannot equip duplicate mods in a loadout.

Before we begin let's pretend you are a smart enough player to have farmed/traded into owning 1 of every requiem mod before attempting any thrall mission. You only need 1 copy since they only lose durability on the actual kill, testing is free.

You equip your parazon with the requiem mods in the order of ABC.

You do a thrall mission and fight your guy. It fails. You now know that A does not work for the first slot. slots 2 and 3 are untested since you failed on stage 1 of the fight.

In response to that, for your next attempt, you change your parazon loadout to BCA (we are testing slot 1 to see if B is correct since A is not correct).

You do another thrall mission and fight your guy. It fails. You now know that B does not work for the first slot.

In response to that, you swap your loadout to CAB.

You do another thrall mission and fight your guy. It works! Hurrah, now you know slot 1 is C. You fail on the 2nd part however so now you know slot 2 is not A. (you still have no idea what slot 3 is)

Every loadout that you do from here on will have slot 1 be C. That slot is solved. So now your loadout for the next mission is changed to CBA (We are testing slot 2 to see if B is correct).

You do 4 more thrall missions, every one of them fails at slot 2, and you tested slot 2 to check if B, D, E and F were right in that position. They weren't. You know that slot 2 cannot be A,B,D,E or F now. It also can't be C because C is in slot 1. You cannot equip duplicate mods in a loadout. Also, because you were of course killing thralls too during these missions, the circle filled and told you that H was one of the requiem mods you need. Logically, after testing F for slot 2 you would pick G in sequence, but instead your next planned loadout is actually going to be CHA (not testing G because you want to test H).

You do another thrall mission. You get past stage 1 and stage 2! Wonderful! You fail on stage 3. You now know the first 2 sequences are C and H respectively. You also know now that slot 3 isn't A (and it obviously can't be C or H, you're already using them). There's 8 requiem mods. You know 3 of them that are impossible. You only need to test at worst 5 more times (mods B,D,E,F or G) before guaranteed victory.

You do more thrall missions and I don't know, get unlucky and end up doing 5 more missions before winning. The end.

Anyways this is your typical lich kill sequence after you've opened the larvae. Bear in mind of course, that we've pretended that you fight your guy every single mission you run which does not happen; they don't always spawn. We've also pretended that you only got the murmur circle to fill from killing thralls once. Personally I usually fill the 2 or 3 circles before I go for the killing run. I've also described a somewhat unlucky but not absolute worst case scenario.

 

But if you were to get the worst case scenario it would be:

you test slot 1 alphabetically, and it turns out after 8 attempts, the last requiem mod you picked, H was slot 1.

you now test 2 alphabetically, it turns out G was slot 2. This takes another 7 attempts (not 8, because H is currently being used for slot 1). The first attempt you made to solving slot 2 was actually happened when you succeeded on testing H in slot 1 earlier.

you now test 3 alphabetically, it turns out F was slot 3. This takes 6 attempts (not 8, because G and H are being used in the other slots). Again, you found out slot 3 was wrong, when you solved slot 2.

So at worst, assuming you are active on changing out your parazons after every failed encounter, it would be 8+6+5=19 attempts, aka far less than the 336 permutations resulting in 336 attempts when trying a bruteforce strategy. The number 336 only applies to "attempting to solve the entire thing in one go", in which case there is a 1/336 chance that you have the right sequence and actually kill the lich on first contact.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Obviousclone

[ResidentOrb21]

On 2019-11-06 at 5:51 PM, Obviousclone said:

in which case there is a 1/336 chance that you have the right sequence and actually kill the lich on first contact.

You literally said what I said right here

[Derethevil]

The only thing that bothers me about it, that even if you know the 3 mods you need, you very likely still have to forcefully kill yourself on the Lich all the time untill you got the right order.
Dying in a game is immersion breaking for me. I already lost a lot of joy in the gameplay element the first time the Lich instagibbed me, just because i didn't know better. I only thought he can gib you like that, if you are standing around too much or he catches you off guard.
But instakilling you for attempting to do what you are supposed to do? Not having a slight chance to avoid it even?
No thanks. #*!% this, i said.

Now i don't mind if i have to guess it at first and see if it is in the right order, but i still do not enjoy dying to that. Being forced to kill myself just to know the right order of mods. At least give me a chance to avoid death and get the right order. Either by adding a button prompt like a quick time event to avoid getting killed just like he did, or make it possible in some other way to get to know the right order to avoid getting killed in a cheap mechanic.

Friend even told me the mods loose a charge even if you had one in the right order but the rest wasn't. Not just if you successfully kill the Lich.
So i can easily say. Once i have the weapons, i will never look at that game mode again. And hope i can disable it for myself. 

I did look forward to it. And i said right off the bat, i hope they do it the right way. Wouldn't even be surprised if they have a hidden counter for themselves to see how many people killed themselves to the Lichs just to have a laugh at our expense.

[Mike1906]

@Educated_Beastno, the requiem mod charge don't get consumed unless you guess the right sequence of the 3 mods, so it's not consumed if you guess it wrong.