Can DE give us the option to "Skip" current Lich?

[Trig]

Few days after Old Blood drop, Lich system arrived.
People keep getting same weapons and really getting tired to keep redoing the entire hunt.
Would it be wise to let us like, given to option to "Go dark" ? let the lich pass-by.
Then we can go after a new one?

i've killed 6 liches in the pass 3 days, and i can tell, its not something people want to do daily.
But i still haven't got the weapon i want. the new rifle.
And i'm getting desperate already.


(don't trashtalk on this post please. its pointless.)

Edited November 5, 2019 by Trig

[Genoscythe]

I'd hope for something more refined than a simple skip button, we can influence the element the weapon has, why can't we influence the weapon the lich spawns with?

[KnossosTNC]

They'll probably patch something in later. They were already talking about transferring Lich contract in the clan Dojo. It didn't make it into the release probably because it was rushed like mad.

I think another, better way to handle this is to let us re-roll the weapon; some sort of interaction that disarms and destroys the Lich's weapon and force them to pick up a new one. You could even influence weapon type by how you destroyed their weapon.

[Trig]

2 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

I'd hope for something more refined than a simple skip button, we can influence the element the weapon has, why can't we influence the weapon the lich spawns with?

yea, why not. totally.

[JackHargreav]

That would defeat the purpose of the system.

[Trig]

Just now, JackHargreav said:

That would defeat the purpose of the system.

how about letting people to have multiple liches going after them in the same time?

[ShortCat]

6 minutes ago, Trig said:

-snip-

This would make farming specific weapons with desired stats way too easy and kill the longterm motivation of the Lich system. If you will be able to skip a Lich in the future, I bet they will make Lich trigger a lot more troublesome.

[tennomantra]

I may not understand where you're coming from, because I've only done my first lich activities for a little while, got it to rank 3 and haven't yet tried to kill it. I like the idea that we have no control of who and how our nemesis is going to be, other than the element which depends on the frame we used.

From a gameplay perspective, I can see how grindy it is and I'm yet to make an opinion whether this is a sensible grind, or an obnoxious time waster.

[LascarCapable]

Your Lich is supposed to be your arch-nemesis. You don't get to pick who it is. If you could skip your arch-nemesis, that would be cheating.

Perhaps some kind of middle ground could be achieved however, like a third option upon defeating your Lich if you don't want to convert or get their weapon. Maybe you could harvest the Lich for a huge amount of Kuva ?

[KnossosTNC]

14 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

That would defeat the purpose of the system.

The system is currently missing a key component that made the original system it's inspired by so compelling: interaction with your Lich. Instead, DE has replaced that with a wall of grind.

Re-rolling certain parts of your Lich doesn't have to defeat the system if it enhances interaction.

12 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

This would make farming specific weapons with desired stats way too easy and kill the longterm motivation of the Lich system. If you will be able to skip a Lich in the future, I bet they will make Lich trigger a lot more troublesome.

The core appeal of a system like is not necessarily the reward, but the interaction. I think the problem here is that DE have replaced that interaction with grind, which people are often incentivised to get it over and done with as quickly as possible. Replace the grind with more interactions, encourage players to pace themselves more, and that motivation can solve itself.

Edited November 5, 2019 by KnossosTNC

[Psianide73]

Is the walking cane weapon the new one?

I accidentally created my first Lich yesterday, and that's what he has. Lucky break I guess?

I'm in no hurry though, so I'll get it in time.

[ShortCat]

1 minute ago, KnossosTNC said:

The system is currently missing a key component that made the original system it's inspired by so compelling: interaction with your Lich. Instead, DE has replaced that with a wall of grind.

Re-rolling certain parts of your Lich doesn't have to defeat the system if it enhances interaction.

The core appeal of a system like is not necessarily the reward, but the interaction. I think the problem here is that DE have replaced that interaction with grind, which people are often incentivised to get it over and done with as quickly as possible. Replace the grind with more interactions, and that motivation can solve itself.

What interactions are you missing form the Lich system? You need to be more specific in this regard, otherwise those lines have little meaning.

Lich system is Star Chart 2.0 in disguise. People were asking for higher starting lvls on regular missions and for meaningfull rewards. Now we got both.

[KnossosTNC]

6 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

What interactions are you missing form the Lich system? You need to be more specific in this regard, otherwise those lines have little meaning.

Lich system is Star Chart 2.0 in disguise. People were asking for higher starting lvls on regular missions and for meaningfull rewards. Now we got both.

Rather than writing a long post to explain, I encourage you to read up on Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor's Nemesis System, and XCOM 2's similar The Chosen system. They have all the information you need.

Edited November 5, 2019 by KnossosTNC

[Trig]

3 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

What interactions are you missing form the Lich system? You need to be more specific in this regard, otherwise those lines have little meaning.

Lich system is Star Chart 2.0 in disguise. People were asking for higher starting lvls on regular missions and for meaningfull rewards. Now we got both.

meaningful rewards that part might be not true for some players.
Since i've seen people saying that even after 8th liches, they're still getting the same weapons over and over.
what's the point of letting Rng to take over the lich system in the first place.
The lich system was supposed to let us create the kind of enemy that knows how we fight, and fight back the most annoying way possible.
Now it just feels like fighting the same enemies over and over with little changes and rng-based weapon and ability.

[Deshiel]

all my four lichs have chakkurs, all my friends lichs have chakkurs.What is going on.

[Trig]

10 minutes ago, Deshiel said:

all my four lichs have chakkurs, all my friends lichs have chakkurs.What is going on.

thats the only weapon i'm after, and i've on my 7th, still not it.... wtf....

[NoLazyShadow]

Только что, D20 сказал:

Your Lich is supposed to be your arch-nemesis. You don't get to pick who it is. If you could skip your arch-nemesis, that would be cheating.

Perhaps some kind of middle ground could be achieved however, like a third option upon defeating your Lich if you don't want to convert or get their weapon. Maybe you could harvest the Lich for a huge amount of Kuva ?

The whole Lich system needs overhaul. Too much rng, no ability to trade liches with other players/place bounty to get rid or them or forget about them for some time; their influence spread too fast and they insta kill you because picking right parazon combination is a frustrating rng game,

Hunting down Lich is long and very frustrating process..and when you got a new lich with a gun you don't want/already have you lose all desire to play

[DOOMPATRIOT]

You can buy the mods (literally you save up like 12 hours of painful farming), either you buy then from other player or from the market, that seems like a big skip, doesn' It?

[RX-3DR]

The problem with being able to easily skip a lich is that it effectively allows you to constantly reroll your Lich for better weapons/better bonuses, dumping out the lich it if has a combination you lack, etc, completely gaming the system.

Personally, I would say a way to influence (not 100%) their weapon but not the bonus and a way to kill them without expending charges without getting the weapon or converting. Giving the ability to just toss them out would be like allowing people to reroll any single Riven to a completely new veiled Riven.

[Trig]

24 minutes ago, DOOMPATRIOT said:

You can buy the mods (literally you save up like 12 hours of painful farming), either you buy then from other player or from the market, that seems like a big skip, doesn' It?

pretty much, imo the mods aren't hard to farm. plus they're rather cheap now tbh.
But that's not really the problems' at.

[Trig]

1 hour ago, D20 said:

Your Lich is supposed to be your arch-nemesis. You don't get to pick who it is. If you could skip your arch-nemesis, that would be cheating.

Perhaps some kind of middle ground could be achieved however, like a third option upon defeating your Lich if you don't want to convert or get their weapon. Maybe you could harvest the Lich for a huge amount of Kuva ?

that sounds promising tbh

[ShortCat]

29 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

Rather than writing a long post to explain, I encourage you to read up on Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor's Nemesis System, and XCOM 2's similar The Chosen system. They have all the information you need.

Those games were designed with a nemesis system at its core, while the other parts were made around it. You cannot just transfer it into another game at such late stage with entirely different focus. Warframe cannot implement all those elements without changing its core mechanics. Your expectations are astronomical.

41 minutes ago, Trig said:

The lich system was supposed to let us create the kind of enemy that knows how we fight, and fight back the most annoying way possible.
Now it just feels like fighting the same enemies over and over with little changes and rng-based weapon and ability.

It took DE months to rework 2 Frames and you expect them to create a bunch of new enemies with their own skills, so that they can fight us? Us, immortal demigods with handheld tactical nukes? I am surprised, I frequently meet people who cannot handle their lich or complain about enemy lvl in missions.

Take a step back, look at reality and what Lich system is: Star Chart 2.0 with special encounters. I am surprised it ended up being somewhat competent; maybe I see it this way, bacause my expectations were low from the start.

 

[lennieplop60]

Yeah, there's nothing worse than having to grind hours for a weapon you already have (converting seems kinda worthless tbh)

[KnossosTNC]

8 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Those games were designed with a nemesis system at its core, while the other parts were made around it. You cannot just transfer it into another game at such late stage with entirely different focus. Warframe cannot implement all those elements without changing its core mechanics. Your expectations are astronomical.

And yet, here we are; DE trying to cram a Nemesis System-like mechanic into Warframe.

I'm not saying they should be copying the whole thing wholesale, I am saying they need to take a second look at what made the Nemesis System worked so well, learn from them, and adapt their own solutions.

It's the best way to fix its problems. Otherwise, we're just going to have another game mode people devour in a few weeks and get bored again, and its potential will never be realised.

Edited November 5, 2019 by KnossosTNC

[JackHargreav]

1 hour ago, KnossosTNC said:

The system is currently missing a key component that made the original system it's inspired by so compelling: interaction with your Lich. Instead, DE has replaced that with a wall of grind.

Re-rolling certain parts of your Lich doesn't have to defeat the system if it enhances interaction.

Sorry I haven't played shadow of mordor so I have no idea how it worked there.

Tho I agree -as I did on many occasions- that the progress shouldn't be completely rng based. Or it shouldn't be rng based at all. I would have prefered it if we could just grind without rng. Like freeing planets would give us the requiem mods or something.

Switching our kuva lich though? Nah. It seems out of place to me.

Edited November 5, 2019 by JackHargreav