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George_PPS

The New Damage Model Proposal: Dragon Ball

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il y a 2 minutes, George_PPS a dit :

The model is the best idea ever. Read what I write carefully. Number display is not a problem. Computers can process huge numbers. Just go up by few % at a time. There is room to grow for decades to come. 

Yes, forever buffing one way or another, never nerfing players, always buffing weapons/warframes and enemies dynamically. You never will need to worry about your gears being nerfed. You never need to concern  how your time investment into the loadouts and farming will get trashed or taken away again. 

To be honest, I don't know you are trolling or seriously thinking it's a good idea...

What count is not the number displayed, it's the fun you get which is achieved with a good balance between time to kill, number of enemies, how your gear (weapons and mods) interacts with these, etc... and/or the feeling of progression.

  • For the first part, smaller numbers make it a lot easier to balance and understand.
     
  • For the second part, if you gradually increase the number through buffs over time, only already player will get this "feeling of progression" (which is not because it doesn't rely on your actual progression), so new players would start the game with already thousand billions of damage, which is what happen on a lot of bad MMO and phone games.
    Also, too big number are just too big for human to visualise, if I say 1, 3, 7, 30, you can imagine what it correpond to, if I say 100, 234, 1000, 32908 it already become hard to visualise and understand what exactly it mean, so if you decide to go higher and use number that can't fit on the screen, what's the point ?
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31 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

The New Damage Model Proposal: Dragon Ball model 
Dragon Ball's damage model elevated the series to super stardom status of all manga and animations since it was released decades ago using just the same damage model again and again....

although I laughed at your naming and references, this is actually what DE sort of promised to us 6 years ago (No nerfing), but they did it anyway

the system you describe is the system implemented in every major mmorpg and it works indeed, but apparently this is not what DE wants, instead they prefer to implement other atrocious mechanics like RNG rewards which gambling addicts love and true grinders hate

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I feel like you don't actually understand how game balance works, or understand that buffing can in fact nerf other items indirectly.

you clearly don't understand what he is talking about

30 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Aka Warframe "no new players allowed" version 

BS, this mechanic works in any major mmorpg

 

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Warframe's biggest issues typically stem from power creep, and lack of balance. This is only asking to make those limits more extreme. DE actually mentioned very recently that they were going to finally "pull the bandaid off" and work on armor scaling. We need a tighter range of enemy strength with more meaningful techniques to dealing with enemies (that rewards more than just nuke frames)...not just keep making enemies and frames infinitely more powerful.

DE works like this: they introduce power creep with every major update to get sales up, then when they made enough money out of it, they nerf it back

they just introduced the Kuva weapons, compared to the other weapons in the game, this is pure power creep

hence they don't care about power creep, they only care about people complaining about power creep

so they nerf and later reintroduce power creep

this is the ever lasting cycle of warframe and has been going on for 6 years

I already gave up expecting this to ever change

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This topic is the prime example of overanxiety leading straight to dementia.

To respect the rules i adress the topic:

No, we had this Korean system for a very long time. It was never intended to work this way, and I'm happy DE grabbed their guts and gone straight to nerfs.

If you like incredibly big numbers on screen I'd suggest you play some JRPG stuff to get some rest from cruel unforgiving Warframe, where atrocious developers take away your precious opness to correct their mistakes.

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5 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

What count is not the number displayed, it's the fun you get which is achieved with a good balance between time to kill

that might be for you, but for some people bigger numbers = more fun

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1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

If you like incredibly big numbers on screen I'd suggest you play some JRPG stuff to get some rest from cruel unforgiving Warframe, where atrocious developers take away your precious opness to correct their mistakes.

why does he have to leave to play another game? why don't you leave?

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2 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

I already gave up expecting this to ever change

I would like to give up the expectation, but every time I do they come out and promise they are working on balance. Then, as you say, the cycle just starts over....😕

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1 минуту назад, BlackVortex сказал:

why does he have to leave to play another game? why don't you leave?

Why don't you?

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il y a 37 minutes, SilverRook a dit :

corrosive is the only status effect thats actually used regularly

 

Still, don't forget Viral.

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22 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Why don't you?

Because I wasn't the one insisting on someone to leave the game, you were

and your toxicity is not welcome in this game, so you are free to leave this game and take your toxicity elsewhere, now I insist

Edited by BlackVortex
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58 minutes ago, Stonehenge said:

Still, don't forget Viral.

how could you both leave out the mother of procs: Slash

the one and only status effect that people are crying about because they want it nerfed for being too OP

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On several occasions, when discussing Warframe's balance and DE's balance philosophy over time, I remember citing Dragon Ball, and DB being cited by others... as an example of how not to do balance. For sure, the franchise is, or at least was immensely popular, but much in the way the Simpsons are still an ongoing show, as its run has become notoriously stale due to repetition: protagonist fights more powerful enemy, trains until they reach some new peak of raw power, then defeat the now-equally or less comparatively powerful enemy through sheer force. As this happens, the stakes need to be constantly raised, until even the fate of the entire universe is not enough (we're now at a point where it's the multiverse being threatened). Meanwhile, characters who used to be on par with the protagonist become so comparatively weak as to turn into joke characters, as happened for example with Ginyu and Krillin.

We see this in Warframe, where power creep has caused once top-tier weapons to turn into mastery fodder, and where any enemy intended to be challenging needs such a ridiculous amount of scaling, immunities, and special mechanics that a whole lot of frames end up having their playstyle invalidated. On top of it all, most of the game is not worth running for veterans, as its enemies are trivially easy and its rewards worthless. So long as we continue along this line of design, only a fraction of the game's content will see any amount of real play at any given time, and that's a degree of waste I don't think we can afford forever.

Edited by Teridax68
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14 hours ago, George_PPS said:

You only read the first 1. Which doesn't stand by itself. Go back to read and COMPREHEND them or simply approve my model. 

wow you're a bit special aren't you ? 

"Go back and re read them because obviously you're too dumb to understand, or just accept what i am telling you is true? "

 

regardless of the fact i did read them and STILL think you're idea isn't new and is still dumb.

/shrug

Edited by SilverRook

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14 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I feel like you don't actually understand how game balance works, or understand that buffing can in fact nerf other items indirectly.

 

14 hours ago, Loza03 said:

No they don't.

It might 'feel' good, but it's an unsustainable model. Look at the source material, Dragon Ball. One of the common jokes is just how quickly things that were once extremely important become complete non-issues. There was an entire official mini-movie based around two enemies that were about as strong as Frieza in a post-Buu saga world, the joke being that they just sicced the kids on the villains as playtime because it wasn't a threat. See also: Beerus. Remember when Beerus was an intimidating villain/chaotic neutral character? After a while, he became less of a threat, so they had to come up with Jiren, a character who nobody mentioned before who's quite literally stronger than god. There is a reason why the shows have each ended when they have.

 

14 hours ago, Genoscythe said:

Tl;dr unlimited powercreep. It's pretty silly to take a "damage model" from a choreographed fighting anime where every encounter is pre-planned and willingly made the way it is to a videogame where things happen dynamically and balancing should be a thing. DE have gotten themselves into many a mess, and we are already at a "buff everything" state, which leads us to enemies being made completely immune to most damage and status effects and actually only makes a fraction of all playstyles viable. "Buff everything" led to horribly designed annoying enemies like Nullifiers because the devs were unwilling to nerf back then. A well-placed understandable nerf can make a game enjoyable and unless you're a three-year-old that you can also understand it. Saryn got adjusted, people lived with it, Saryn even instakilled enemies (as in, yes, a scripted kill) with her 4 in her first iteration, people lived with it.

 

Oh, have I already mentioned that I hate Nullifiers? Nullifiers, are pretty bad, too. And those corrupted nullifiers, man those are pesky. If DE would have swung the nerf hammer back when they should have a lot of the current power creep and imbalance could have been avoided. But now we're stuck in a timeline with nullifiers. Can't wait for my time machine.

The power of warframes and their gears is balanced by ever stronger players. It's a dynamic process. Instead of having static enemy level design that is extremely hard to balance, the model solves this issue and no one's gears can ever be nerfed so much again. It's win-win. 

14 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

This is not a manga, or a comic book. This is an interactive, cooperative game. You don't get to be the hero that comes in and overwhelmingly makes the rest of your team obsolete...we already have enough issue with frames doing that as is.

"Rebalancing" after they release something too powerful. Have you noticed they've done the complete opposite lately? Now they release everything too weak, then buff it, because they know everyone will whine if they make it too powerful then take that away.

Then those players can leave. This isn't Dragon Ball Online. 

Your rules are bs, because you have poor concept of game design. Lol

It's the same that we do both activities for fun. The psychology behind both actives are the same too. Except that reading mangas and watching animes is completely afk in a sense we don't actually fight but we just spectate. These rules are really great. 

14 hours ago, krc473 said:

I read all your rules, it seems like a pointless idea. If you buff the enemies without an equal or greater buff to our gear, you nerf our gear. If I have the best possible setup, and it gets a 5% increase, but the average enemies get a 50% buff, you nerfed us.

You say we don’t get nerfed in rule 1, but then rule 2 says we do. You do not have to change any stats on our gear to nerf us. You have completely skipped over this. If you buff everything equally you achieve nothing. You are either buffing or nerfing players.

  • If you disagree, explain why. Don’t just say “read the rules again”.

Exactly that instead of nerfing players' gears to make players feel extremely bad to "balance", why not make enemies stronger to achieve the same mechanical result? Do you prefer to be nerfed to see your gears reduced to 50% or less strength or do you prefer enemies to be buffed by 50%? Most players will choose the former one and this model angers no one since when there are adjustments to enemies levels, many things gets buffed too but by different degrees. 
Finally, not everything is buffed at the same degree at the same time. It's dynamic, some enemies can be buffed more while some gears may be buff a little or nothing at all to achieve new difficulty paradigm and balance. 

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14 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

To be honest, I don't know you are trolling or seriously thinking it's a good idea...

What count is not the number displayed, it's the fun you get which is achieved with a good balance between time to kill, number of enemies, how your gear (weapons and mods) interacts with these, etc... and/or the feeling of progression.

  • For the first part, smaller numbers make it a lot easier to balance and understand.
     
  • For the second part, if you gradually increase the number through buffs over time, only already player will get this "feeling of progression" (which is not because it doesn't rely on your actual progression), so new players would start the game with already thousand billions of damage, which is what happen on a lot of bad MMO and phone games.
    Also, too big number are just too big for human to visualise, if I say 1, 3, 7, 30, you can imagine what it correpond to, if I say 100, 234, 1000, 32908 it already become hard to visualise and understand what exactly it mean, so if you decide to go higher and use number that can't fit on the screen, what's the point ?

Players love to see big numbers, and that is not an issue  for modern computers. And there are a lot of room to grow gradually. 

Second, the numbers don't need to grow to that "billions" quickly or available to new players. And if more than few weapons can top out the damage, just do unified number reduction every few years by the exponents instead of nerfing and making few % of players feel very bad and quit the game quarterly and monthly. 

I personally love to see big numbers and that is a huge fun factor if time to kill, numbers of enemies and these others factors are the same. We are simply very smart and we love everything we have that have numbers that grow, such our bank accounts, stocks, scores, you name it. Growing numbers are great. Shrinking numbers are terrible, just like your bank account.

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14 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

although I laughed at your naming and references, this is actually what DE sort of promised to us 6 years ago (No nerfing), but they did it anyway

the system you describe is the system implemented in every major mmorpg and it works indeed, but apparently this is not what DE wants, instead they prefer to implement other atrocious mechanics like RNG rewards which gambling addicts love and true grinders hate

you clearly don't understand what he is talking about

BS, this mechanic works in any major mmorpg

 

DE works like this: they introduce power creep with every major update to get sales up, then when they made enough money out of it, they nerf it back

they just introduced the Kuva weapons, compared to the other weapons in the game, this is pure power creep

hence they don't care about power creep, they only care about people complaining about power creep

so they nerf and later reintroduce power creep

this is the ever lasting cycle of warframe and has been going on for 6 years

I already gave up expecting this to ever change

Thank you. You totally understand it. Those who say  after Rule 1 they stopped or laughed have not  paid attention to what I ACTUALLY propose. They just pick 1 or 2 points and skip the contents of the proposal. This is actually an amazing model. It will TOTALLY eliminate %  of player loss every quarter and every month right after DE nerfs anything big. Imagine player base lossing at only 1% of the current rate that are caused by this. Imagine players so satisfied that their gears  only and mostly grow stronger over time; this point will attract a lot more players to join Warframe as well. 

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14 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

This topic is the prime example of overanxiety leading straight to dementia.

To respect the rules i adress the topic:

No, we had this Korean system for a very long time. It was never intended to work this way, and I'm happy DE grabbed their guts and gone straight to nerfs.

If you like incredibly big numbers on screen I'd suggest you play some JRPG stuff to get some rest from cruel unforgiving Warframe, where atrocious developers take away your precious opness to correct their mistakes.

I respect your opinion. My idea is really amazing if you actually know what I am talking about. 

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14 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

that might be for you, but for some people bigger numbers = more fun

Yes. Bigger and better numbers is extremely fun for vast majority of players. We as humans are trained to recognize numbers very early and know what it means to see, know, and see bigger and better numbers in ALL FIELDS of human endeavor, invention, competition, saving, speed, efficiency. THAT is a great selling point too for any systems, game or not.  

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7 hours ago, SilverRook said:

wow you're a bit special aren't you ? 

Go back and re read them because obviously you're too dumb to understand, or just accept what i am telling you is true? 

 

regardless of the fact i did read them and STILL think you're idea isn't new and is still dumb.

/shrug

I believe you are an intelligent being.  But you haven't understood it at all. Go back to read and study them or your comments are of no value here. This new proposal is great for you and everyone. 

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9 hours ago, SilverRook said:

lol that catchmoon balance really ticked you off huh? 

lol, my catchmoon is actually stronger after the last update

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Considering the number of posts on how much DB's power scaling is broken, I'm not sure choosing it as an example of your proposition is a good idea.

With that small pike out of the way, let's talk about the meat of your proposition.

What you are proposing is to create a change of perception. By always buffing, instead of using a mix of buff and nerf, you are giving the impression en empowering the players, rather than restrict them.
As the blizzard experiment on rested XP has shown, that kind of shift in player perception can work.
However, it is also far less effective on players that are invested in the mechanics of the game, and will compare all changes, resulting in those players realizing what was an effective nerf*, despite a perceived buff. Considering the number of invested players with good visibility on various platforms, such a realization will get transmitted to the rest of the player-base quickly.
In effect, this solution creates a smokescreen which will give the impression of a buff for a few days before realization sets in as the community discovers the losers of the buff race.

This is not the only issue with your proposition.

First, it makes balance actually harder, because neither the players nor the developers can rest on a standard level for balanced content. As the power level continuously grows, you can't easily look back to previous games states to accurately determine the evolution of the game state.

Secondly, power scaling ingame doesn't work as a single linear scale. Some power/mods can be too powerful not because they are more powerful that the alternatives, but because they built on top of other options, and buffing other mods will make it even more powerful, negating any attempt at a relative nerf (see the current debates around CO, or the fact that Gas damage gets double buffed by Toxin mods).
This is ever truer with effects that are non-numeric or already past any viable limit. If my (imaginary) mod lets me jump so high I get stuck in the ceiling each time I touch the spacebar, no amount of buff will ever fix that. If my build let me give -150% movement speed to enemies, they wont ever move unless you give them resistance to those kind of effects, which will further complicate the situation.

Thirdly, there is a point where humans lose their sense of scale in the face of higher numbers, and become unable to actually perceive more about numbers than "it's bigger". Considering that seeing billion damage have already occured, we're already to the point that people are stopping looking at the numbers, and going with feels. And if you buff bother players and enemies, you can easily feel like your weapon got worse, even if the game tells you it's better.

In summary, your proposition doesn't solve the issue it was supposed to, and introduce more problems, while implicitly telling any player discovering this scam that you think they are stupid.

It's a bad idea.


* effective nerf : if, in an update, most stuff get buffed by 50-75%, but a weapon get buffed by only 10%; The actual result is that that weapon was nerfed in comparison to the rest of the game; it was effectivelly nerfed.

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Very good idea, I will use this as a basis for my game when development starts.

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If your idea were a dog, I would take it out behind the woodshed and tell the kids it went to live in Australia.

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See... to cast a comment that I haven't seen much thrown around so far...

What... for?

Warframes, our weapons, the modding system, the companions, the arcanes, the Focus system, everything that our Operators can do, and even adding in gear items that allow some limitations to be bypassed there too... We are so powerful already that DE have only just implemented a system that creates an enemy that is supposedly as powerful as we are (which is instead artificially gated by making them situationally un-killable and able to insta-kill us instead).

There is no content, no enemies, no rewards that are unattainable with what we have already. Good players could take the old Ember (the one with only stun CC and no base survivability) and go for hours of survival while solo and go further in a team. And there is nothing up there at those difficulty levels that actually encourages us to get there.

Dragonball power scaling only works because each enemy is stronger than the last, and kicks the butts of the main cast every time they first appear to show how far out of their depth the main cast are, and how much they have to train to get stronger.

We don't have any strong enemies, we're gods among cardboard cut-outs. Our un-modded frames and weapons can competently handle level 30-40 content (which is all the Star Chart offers without staying multiple rounds) and with mods it becomes a geometric power conversion.

The only way your scaling system would work is if DE were consistently releasing enemies that were stronger and stronger to defeat us.

They aren't.

Therefore this philosophy cannot work.

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I'm not reading that whole wall of text and admittedly I never liked DB/DBZ. Maybe you're blinded by the fact you're a fan, but there's a reason people joke about the shows being 3 minutes of dialog and story with 20 minutes of static poses with moving backgrounds and "AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH" over and over with lots of other filler episodes. Also the "over 9000" meme. If you enjoy the show, great, enjoy it. I have my own terrible media things that I like and that's all ok.

But no. Power creep is already an issue without specifically designing for it.

Edited by Hobie-wan
typo

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