Give Us Back a Variant

[Kontrollo]

@[DE]joebuck Sorry for the ping, but seeing as no one looks into this subforum in months, I feel it's justified.

 

This iteration of melee is not good for the mode. Of note:

• 100% damage block^[1]
• Animation cancels with rolls, especially on slams^[1][2]
• Balance issues: knockdown/impair combos are spammable, with blocking working during animations; Telos Boltace can ragdoll players; one-shots; etc.

 

Also bugs: It's even possible to cancel both a slam and the roll that cancels it by timing it right.^[3] And from what I heard, Emotes can cancel animations, too.

 

Hilarious, though: Wall melee got even worse than before.

 

Now I suspect you guys are busy and other things have priority. So please, just reenable Opticor Variant, so we can play some PvP without all the bullS#&$, where everyone is on equal footing. Or "rework" one of the event Variant modes for general play (Quick Steel etc.), but either without melee or without knockdowns.

 

[1] Topics on melee

Spoiler

 

[2] Melee slam cancel examples

Spoiler

 

[3] Bug example

Spoiler

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Kontrollo
typos, added thread; more threads, 5 total now

[Renegade343]

5 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Also bugs: It's even possible to cancel both a slam and the roll that cancels it by timing it right.^[3] And from what I heard, Emotes can cancel animations, too.

Having seen your video, I would agree that it does appear to be broken for Conclave, but I think we could keep it as a feature in PVE and disable that in Conclave.

[Kontrollo]

Just now, Renegade343 said:

Having seen your video, I would agree that it does appear to be broken for Conclave, but I think we could keep it as a feature in PVE and disable that in Conclave.

I can agree with that, but it would mean to really separate some mechanic intricacies for both modes (like that is going to happen).

Also hilarious: it's not even all that useful in PvE, because most slams don't have knockdowns/ragdolls anymore.

[Renegade343]

1 minute ago, Kontrollo said:

I can agree with that, but it would mean to really separate some mechanic intricacies for both modes (like that is going to happen).

I mean, there has been some (not the extent that I would be proposing yet), but there needs to be some will from the developers to update Conclave.

1 minute ago, Kontrollo said:

Also hilarious: it's not even all that useful in PvE, because most slams don't have knockdowns/ragdolls anymore.

I'm not sure whether that's a bug or intended. Would be rather overpowered if the no knockdown thing turns out to be a bug.

[Kontrollo]

Just now, Renegade343 said:

I mean, there has been some (not the extent that I would be proposing yet), but there needs to be some will from the developers to update Conclave.

I'm not sure whether that's a bug or intended. Would be rather overpowered if the no knockdown thing turns out to be a bug.

Exactly, that was back when they had some devs working on it. Now, though?

No, they stated that they removed the ragdolls that we had in Phase 1

[Renegade343]

Just now, Kontrollo said:

Exactly, that was back when they had some devs working on it. Now, though?

I wish you all the best of luck.

Just now, Kontrollo said:

No, they stated that they removed the ragdolls that we had in Phase 1

Alright, forgot about that too. Time to reread the patchnotes again.

[AlphaPHENIX]

Ya, those are slams are...unacceptable.

[Rubbertubtub01]

Yes the Telos Boltace are completely out of hand... It's so game breaking regular conclave players are avoiding conclave because of one specific weapon. Please fix the Telos Boltace's ragdoll effect IMMEDIATELY. 

[--Q--ualityContent]

Well they could also just disable melee like they did to Wukong, Ember and Vauban.

Edited November 7, 2019 by --Q--ualityContent

[Loxyen]

On 2019-11-06 at 5:28 PM, Kontrollo said:

• 100% damage block^[1]
• Animation cancels with rolls, especially on slams^[1][2]
• Balance issues: knockdown/impair combos are spammable, with blocking working during animations; Telos Boltace can ragdoll players; one-shots; etc.

I haven't played THAT much Conclave since the update, because I had fun with the pre-ridiculed Lich system (thats another story), but I dare to give my 2 cents from the experience I made thus far:

 

• 100%damage block 

Yes the angle and complete dmg negation aren't suited for this game mode. And considering how far across the globe Conclave's active player base is spread it gets even worse as soon as you tackle opponents with high ping or inconsistent connections. The 45° angle or what it is can suddenly turn into a fully 360° for some miraculous reason (delay) and even playing around ppl ain't help you then. I can understand that blocking can be a decent strategical option, but within its current state blocking is outrageous ridiculous in Conclave.

The suggestion I came up with so far would be a smaller value of damage reduction that is falling off from the center (crosshair) to these 45°. And for the center a very short energy consuming 100% (or close to that) block on 'channeling' similar to an ability. The energy cost should either be a fixed cost drawn on activation or a fast energy draining toggle activated on 'channel blocking' so it'll be a quick tactical option instead of an impenetrable fortress. (the toggle probably would be a fitting option for pve aswell with the auxiliary weapon slot and 'channel efficiency' mods) Please deliberate a fair value of energy drain/cost for both sides, considering the inherent energy gain value in Conclave. During that 'channel blocking' the falling off dmg can get an increased blocking value aswell, but should still fall off in value to the outsides. A fixed minimal cost for activation should limit the extent of exploiting this blocking mechanic.

I'll condense my intention: In Conclave, a competitive pvp mode, I see blocking rather as an optional tool to get a short instant of space to think about a counter, re-positioning,etc.. a brief moment to stay alive a little longer so you get a chance to turn the tides after blocking instead of it being the devastating steamroll it is now. Thus it should reward skilled/tactical gameplay with its blocking focus on the crosshair and energy economy. A balanced 'channel blocking' mechanic would be a great foundation for that.

 

 

• Animation cancels with rolls, especially on slams

Imho I love how smooth the melee system works in Conclave since the Old Blood Update, especially the transitions into and between combos. However it brought lots of problems with it.

Many damage and range values are over the top and simply have to be re-balanced for Conclave across the board. In addition many slams and copter attacks are one hit kills, which is problematic considering how spam-able they are. And as we all know... all this gets even worse with an increasing ping or fighting people with a bad connection.

I like how melee has become a greater threat and fits the movement system better through its new smoothness. Thus grounded combat has gained more of its former importance back since the friction increase from a couple years ago. The aerial movement combined with air melee as well as grounded melee form a great versatile repertory which benefits the flow and pace of the matches. Being more wary about taking the risk and going close quarters or rather depending on spacing has become more critical than ever. That said it is still possible to break loose the momentum a combo gives you and just catapult yourself around the map like this:

Spoiler

As fun as it is to go mach 10 such moves break the balance and give you a huge advantage. I doubt these are intended features so these bugs should be fixed!

While talking about smoothness and a versatile repertory I think cancels within these combos are important to stay on par with the game's pace. For that being able to roll out to any direction (or how some mods would describe it as dodge) is a great option. Rolling might stop your combo and changes your direction at an instant, but still locks you into the roll animation as a little drawback one has to remember. On slams however should be a little drawback too, canceling its whole animation on ground contact is broken. Slams are already quick, you can steer them to a decent extent and in the current state of the game many one-hit-kill and are highly spam-able as it has already been shown here:

On 2019-11-06 at 5:28 PM, Kontrollo said:

[2] Melee slam cancel examples

  Hide contents

 

(A midair cancel before hitting anything would be something else though)

Of course this bug should be fixed aswell:

On 2019-11-06 at 5:28 PM, Kontrollo said:

[3] Bug example

  Hide contents

 

 

 

In short: A re-balance of damage and range values is necessary, as well as bug fixes on slam bugs and combo momentum breaking bugs as shown above.

 

 

• Balance issues: knockdown/impair combos are spammable, with blocking working during animations; Telos Boltace can ragdoll players; one-shots; etc

As already said blocking, damage and range values have to be balanced and bugs fixed properly. I don't think a guy spamming dash combos would be that much of a problem then, because if everything works as intended it makes him predictable again. Many dash combos also work like this: 1-2 hit for the dash and a 3rd stationary as a little downtime. Brain dead spamming them won't get you anywhere and blocking during attacks/combos shouldn't work like that either.

I haven't had the pleasure to meet one of those Telos Boltace users since the update, but remembering how ridiculous it already was before the update there should be an intervention from DE asap. Either remove its effect or the weapon itself from Conclave. (Or maybe turn down its damage drastically to a Sonicor-Talon similar value for being a mere tool for crowd control?)

 

Please fix.

[-Gwanox]

I'd personally make a "competitive" variant with a limited choice of carefully balanced weapons & Warfames (maybe 3 in each weapon category like for primary autos: braton, karak and stradavar) excluding the annoying AOE's like Ignis and Staticor.

Edited November 10, 2019 by -Gwanox

[Sylonus]

On 2019-11-06 at 10:39 AM, Kontrollo said:

I can agree with that, but it would mean to really separate some mechanic intricacies for both modes (like that is going to happen).

Also hilarious: it's not even all that useful in PvE, because most slams don't have knockdowns/ragdolls anymore.

I can agree that a lot of these changes are probably unhealthy for conclave, but It's exceedingly useful for fast travelling and combat in PVE, slams do have knockdowns, heavy slams have lifts, being able to roll out of a slam for mobility is just amazing, I love the feeling of using a slam to accelerate my movement, and not getting locked into the long slam recovery at the bottom, also being able to roll cancel out of a forward moving lunge is great for mobility as it conserves momentum.

[Kontrollo]

On 2019-11-10 at 5:14 PM, Sylonus said:

I can agree that a lot of these changes are probably unhealthy for conclave, but It's exceedingly useful for fast travelling and combat in PVE, slams do have knockdowns, heavy slams have lifts, being able to roll out of a slam for mobility is just amazing, I love the feeling of using a slam to accelerate my movement, and not getting locked into the long slam recovery at the bottom, also being able to roll cancel out of a forward moving lunge is great for mobility as it conserves momentum.

The AoE of most slams in PvE only staggers (Impact proc), they need to be very close to get knocked down. Rolling out of a slam is in PvE is not nearly as useful as in PvP, because your enemies barely even take advantage of the recovery, and you usually have one or more attack speed mods on your weapon, anyway.

The problem in PvP is that the slam recovery is important to balance the impact of a knockdown, because that is easily punishable on a lot of weapons.

 

Cancelling out of a forward moving lunge is not as problematic, though.

[Loxyen]

On 2019-11-06 at 5:28 PM, Kontrollo said:

Balance issues: knockdown/impair combos are spammable, with blocking working during animations; Telos Boltace can ragdoll players; one-shots; etc.

 

On 2019-11-09 at 3:44 PM, Loxyen said:

I haven't had the pleasure to meet one of those Telos Boltace users since the update, but remembering how ridiculous it already was before the update there should be an intervention from DE asap.

Yea about that.... finally had the pleasure and discovered a couple bugs right away.

 

    1. You can keep shooting an automatic rifle and aim down sight while getting rag-dolled until the stand up animation starts:

Spoiler

 

 

    2.The rag-doll effect is just too much. A simple knockdown was already a pain in the arse, but a rag-doll effect and a stand up animation lock is game breaking + it keeps bugging out:

Spoiler

 

 

    3. Apparently you can suppress the rag-doll effect with a melee animation, but it'll desync you and you gonna get teleported to the place the server/other client rag-dolled you into:

Spoiler

 

 

 

On 2019-11-09 at 3:44 PM, Loxyen said:

Either remove its effect or the weapon itself from Conclave. (Or maybe turn down its damage drastically to a Sonicor-Talon similar value for being a mere tool for crowd control?)

Now that I've experienced that rag-doll effect first hand I'd say remove the effect or Telos Boltace from Conclave! Even as a mere crowd control tool it has no place in Conclave's fast pace and balance. Melee already has a lot of balancing issues that came along with the rework of our melee system, but Telos Boltace is game breaking in Conclave.

 

Edit: Here another nonsense teleport caused by Telos Boltace...

Spoiler

 

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Loxyen
added another gif