Is the exponential energy drain a new trend ?

[Otakuwolf]

I might sound a bit ranty but, if that is the case just stop. And also remove it where is already present.

Seriousely, first I try the Ember rework and I was just done saying "wow this is pretty cool" until I realized her 2 drains energy esponentially with time, and then I was just done saying "Grendel seems like a nice support/tank" until I realized enemies stored with 1 also drain energy esponentially with time.

Being FORCED (not it being an option but mandatory) to juggle abilities and force yourself open for enemy attacks IS NOT FUN, is just an annoyance and a chore to do, and even more so when there are Warframe that can do a better job without such a hassle.

I might be blunt but please, take the exponential energy drain mechanic and trow it out of the window, all it does is make potentially good things not worth bothering with.

[(PSN)Ragology]

Maybe DE is selectively reading posts about how we've got too much energy and can spam abilities nearly nonstop in a mission without challenge or consequence?

[Threa]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Ragology said:

Maybe DE is selectively reading posts about how we've got too much energy and can spam abilities nearly nonstop in a mission without challenge or consequence?

I think you're correct here. It feels like they're trying to appease players who think energy management isn't an issue because of all the methods to regenerate it. I disagree with them, mostly because energy management with most frames, especially at higher level content becomes necessary. So nerfing or adjusting energy regeneration or changing how it works just to appease people who complain about it in lower levels isn't the way to go about it. I know they need a way to get players to use abilities more wisely so we actually use our brains but they can do it without, as the OP said, feeling forced to do it. I don't have any ideas myself but I know that the exponential energy drain isn't the answer, or at least not in its current state. At minimum it needs some tweaking.

[Tiltskillet]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Ragology said:

Maybe DE is selectively reading posts about how we've got too much energy and can spam abilities nearly nonstop in a mission without challenge or consequence?

Hah, -very- selectively if so.   Nearly all of the complaints I see about it talk about energy (lack of) management as Zenurik, Arcane, pizza, and/or mod-related, or as a systemic problem, rather than specific to certain kinds of abilities.

[Goodwill]

I do not have an issue with Ember's energy. I just run Dethcube with Energy Generator and Arcane Energize and I don't even use Zenurik or pizzas. Honestly, I found her overly efficient which may be because duration is not a very necessary stat on her allowing you to slip in both Transient Fortitude and Fleeting Expertise without losing much in exchange as long as you have Primed Continuity in.

 

[keikogi]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

ah, -very- selectively if so.   Nearly all of the complaints I see about it talk about energy (lack of) management as Zenurik, Arcane, pizza, and/or mod-related, or as a systemic problem, rather than specific to certain kinds of abilities.

Warframe has a broken energy system. When I was a new player I remener using skills about 5 times on mission because I had no energy regeneration or meaninfull efficiency. Today I don't even care about energy cost most of the time because I use 75% efficiency ( effectivily mutiplier all energy income by 4 times ) and zenuril. 

If I somehow run out of Energy  I have energy pizzas readily availible using hotkeys.

I don't even have arcane energize and I can spam skill like there is no tomorrows.

There is no in between , you are either a pleb that cant offord to cast anything or you have so much energy income that even using negative efficiency and dealing with mutiple parasitic eximus you are spaming your skills like there is no tomorrow.

[Teridax68]

I agree, and from what I've experienced with Ember at least I got the distinct impression her Energy costs were balanced around high-end players with lots of Energy to spare. This might initially sound like a good way of dealing with our out-of-control Energy at that point, but is also likely to make her extremely difficult for newer players to use, which is all the weirder considering she's typically been one of the game's most beginner-friendly nuke frames. It's also one of the reasons why she doesn't feel as good as other frames, e.g. Saryn, because those other frames don't need to deal with heaps of Energy costs and drains to be effective. Our broken Energy economy needs to be addressed systemically, not by changing individual frames, and I think one of DE's biggest mistakes this update has been to try to address systemic gameplay design issues such as Energy, enemy damage scaling, and enemy armor scaling via band-aids on individual frame reworks.

[Excelion-Skyclaw]

You said it in yourself - you don't want to jiggle attack and defense, you don't want to micromanage. New ember is that - so she is not met for you, she is no longer AFK frame she was. Her energy is not a problem if you build her properly, or understand when she needs it and where. There are just "so many" ways to get energy nowadays that the actual energy is not the problem. is that she needs to be taken care of.  - Ofc that is only once you ran out of enemies, if you have enemies she has pretty much endless supply of energy and health (you might want to check her personal mods ^^ they are are awesome) but once the battle is over, just reset 2, and you're back to 50% reduction to the next fight.

[Raikh]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb Excelion-Skyclaw:

You said it in yourself - you don't want to jiggle attack and defense, you don't want to micromanage. New ember is that - so she is not met for you, she is no longer AFK frame she was. Her energy is not a problem if you build her properly, or understand when she needs it and where. There are just "so many" ways to get energy nowadays that the actual energy is not the problem. is that she needs to be taken care of.  - Ofc that is only once you ran out of enemies, if you have enemies she has pretty much endless supply of energy and health (you might want to check her personal mods ^^ they are are awesome) but once the battle is over, just reset 2, and you're back to 50% reduction to the next fight.

Just resetting your immolation back to 50 can kill you in endurance runs. A dmg reduction is there to protect you, you shouldn't have to turn it off at every corner in order to be able to manage the Frame. There is also a difference between just micromanaging a kit and having to constantly press abilities or have your energy drained regardless of the situation. You need to cast abilities to get your immolation up to dmg reduction percentages that make you live longer against high level enemies, then you need to cast abilities to not get drained in seconds even with 175% efficiency and if you then even want to use them for damage you are pretty much alternate spam casting 3 and 4 and if you then dare to use your weapons you probably lose energy immediately to the drain of the instantly capping immolation.

She needs to spend energy to not get her energy drained which is quite ironic and excessive. A Warframe should also not be based on having Access to Zenurik while running a specific augment possibly combined with Arcane Energize to top it off.
If it was just the damage that was increased by immolation and you would have to manage it fo get your ability damage going I would be fine with it, but since her survuvability also depends on it its a bit too much tedium with too little pay-off.

I really like her new kit but after a few missions I'm basically always asking myself why I should bother when there are similar frames in function who don't have that tedium or energy consume or LoS restricitons on abilities. For like lv50 missions its a lot more manageable ebcause you can just flick immolation off whenever you feel like itx getting annoying but in lv50 mission I can do whatever I want anyway as the Grendel missions have proven. The more you actually need her kit the less practical she becomes and that is something that keeps her down from being a truly good Frame right now.

Similar things for Grendel. He could be akin to Inaros just with a few more useful tools in trade for less raw EHP. But his constant energy drain to even be able to use his abilites make him extraordinarily cluncky to play and you get into the situation where you are more concerned (similarly to Ember) with playing your Frames ability mini-game than playing the actual game.

[selig_fay]

3 часа назад, Raikh сказал:

A Warframe should also not be based on having Access to Zenurik while running a specific augment possibly combined with Arcane Energize to top it off.

I think these words should be written at the entrance to DE office. So many frames are simply broken due to a banal lack of energy. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

It's only a new 'trend' in so far as it's happened to finally hit more than one Warframe (and, at that, hit two new ones at a time).

Ivara's Navigator was the first exponential-drainer a long time ago... On a skill that implicitly locks you in place thus stopping you from out-pacing a static energy drain with orb drops. Never made any sense. At least with Ember and Grendel you're mobile through it all.

[Excelion-Skyclaw]

4 hours ago, Raikh said:

Just resetting your immolation back to 50 can kill you in endurance runs. A dmg reduction is there to protect you, you shouldn't have to turn it off at every corner in order to be able to manage the Frame. There is also a difference between just micromanaging a kit and having to constantly press abilities or have your energy drained regardless of the situation. You need to cast abilities to get your immolation up to dmg reduction percentages that make you live longer against high level enemies, then you need to cast abilities to not get drained in seconds even with 175% efficiency and if you then even want to use them for damage you are pretty much alternate spam casting 3 and 4 and if you then dare to use your weapons you probably lose energy immediately to the drain of the instantly capping immolation.

Wait, you misunderstood me. In endurance run you should never be able to run out of energy, you run out of energy when you run out of enemies for two long 
- Yes I admit that having good efficiency in her is must, but since she has great ability scaling on her own is a decent price. 
- You should only spam 3 if you need to heal - if you have the healing mod
Otherwise if you're well in enemies - Modding 4th skill to give you energy orbs is pretty much permanent max energy (provided you can kill the enemies) <- Great on low lever endurance
For high level stuff 100+ enemies do so much damage that even with 90% reduction mods like Rage/Hunter adrenaline are effective tools.
Again you only want to reset 2, when you are gonna be enemy free for a while and it will drain more than half your energy. Otherwise on survivals or Escavation, that shouldnt be problem. In defense can be tricky. She has enough innate health and armor to survive on 50% on pre 60 levels to gain the 2 buff to max. On higher levels if you need to gain it fast -> just spam some low cost fireballs around ^^

[Endorphinz]

I agree with energy being a big issue for this game. It seems the assumption is that everyone will be either running Zenurik, or having a huge amount of energy efficiency. As one of the few players that chooses not to use Zenurik, all of my frames, save a few, use a high energy efficiency build. While useful, it's also a bit restrictive having to work energy efficiency into most of my builds. This is particularly highlighted when I'm playing solo, since usually in groups I can steal some energy from other's energy dashes, but while solo having to rely on energy orb drops makes me hold my breath at times.

This was also brought to light, coincidentally, during Grendel's missions, where you are forced to play without any mods. Without commenting on the difficulty of the missions itself, it became staggeringly clear to myself and many players how much we all relied on energy efficiency and regeneration. Without a trinity or a limbo on your team, those energy orbs are as precious as gold!

While Warframe may have started out as a game where ability casts were meant to be few and far between, things have clearly shifted by now to where gameplay demands that the players pick up the slack for demanding energy drains.

[selig_fay]

1 час назад, Endorphinz сказал:

~

But you also have to admit that with energy issues, players will use frames like Inaros that don't need abilities. Moreover, some frames can solve their energy problems with abilities such as Limbo/octavia/garuda/etc. Other frames can do absolutely crazy things for 25 energy. And there is frames, which eats 10 energy in second sake of moreover, to near hung turret with weak damage. Excess energy is not a problem of the energy system. The energy system itself is a problem because it is broken. You can get 10 energy orbs in 10 seconds, or you can get none in 2 minutes. That is, your strength depends on luck, which in my opinion only spoils everything, because you simply have no ways to play from abilities, except to use all those OP things to enhance the power supply. And without abilities, why me then choose frame, if there is 7K hp inaros? Or after the nerf of energy you want to take up healing?

[Endorphinz]

13 minutes ago, zhellon said:

 That is, your strength depends on luck, which in my opinion only spoils everything, because you simply have no ways to play from abilities, except to use all those OP things to enhance the power supply. And without abilities, why me then choose frame, if there is 7K hp inaros? Or after the nerf of energy you want to take up healing?

Yeah this is something I have trouble explaining. Without things like energy restores and zenurik, you're at the mercy of RNG... just like everything else in the game, I suppose.

Like, I don't want to have to rely on Zenurik. I prefer playing the part of the healer.

[EinheriarJudith]

22 hours ago, (PS4)Ragology said:

Maybe DE is selectively reading posts about how we've got too much energy and can spam abilities nearly nonstop in a mission without challenge or consequence?

if that was true then ember wouldnt have the kind of spam she does now.

Edited November 7, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[EinheriarJudith]

6 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It's only a new 'trend' in so far as it's happened to finally hit more than one Warframe (and, at that, hit two new ones at a time).

Ivara's Navigator was the first exponential-drainer a long time ago... On a skill that implicitly locks you in place thus stopping you from out-pacing a static energy drain with orb drops. Never made any sense. At least with Ember and Grendel you're mobile through it all.

difference is ivara has stealth so standing still is not a problem for her.

[EinheriarJudith]

19 hours ago, Goodwill said:

I do not have an issue with Ember's energy. I just run Dethcube with Energy Generator and Arcane Energize and I don't even use Zenurik or pizzas. Honestly, I found her overly efficient which may be because duration is not a very necessary stat on her allowing you to slip in both Transient Fortitude and Fleeting Expertise without losing much in exchange as long as you have Primed Continuity in.

 

this is detrimental to build diversity. she has a ridiculous energy drain on top of being ability spam. fireball is now a ranged landslide and fireblast is on spam to not have to be out of energy from immolation while being out of energy because its costs to much already.

[Violet_Xe]

   Personally I've never felt there was a problem with energy. The fact that you had to be careful with abilities before and don't have to now speaks volumes of positivity. At the start you're menat to be careful and cautious with abilities. They are valuable and costly. But in later stages of the game, Warframe rewards you with tricks to counteract energy being expensive opening the door to a multitude of new content with ability and weapon synergy, or just showing what abilities can do if you use them correctly. This brings new depth to the forefront of warframes once obtained meaning it's a form of progression. It's a landmark new players should aim towards.
   The issue is HOW you get energy, not the energy itself. Zenurik is the biggest boulder in the way of balanced focus schools. THere's always one school that has something over the rest. Before it was Naramon Shadow Step, this time it's energizing dash. If this problem sounds more familiar now, that's because the itzal blink is a very similar situation. DE could add it to all schools with Zenurik having a way to upgrade it, that;s an option. DE could also just outright remove the ability putting value into trinity and harrow again. Pizzas and Arcane Energize are fiar in my opinion. Energize has plenty of competition has only 2 arcanes can be used in tandem with one another and pizzas are literally spending your resources to craft a consumable. These are completely fair way to generate energy taking the players time and effort into consideration for the reward given.

   As for the EE Drain mechanic on abilities I also find this kind of stupid to be perfectly honest, at least for some warframes. Grendel is a fantastic candidate on paper for this EE Drain. DE's thought process was probably, "we can't have grendel eat the whole map so ensure he can't hold the whole map hostage in his stomach. Normal energy drain would be too slow so lets ramp it up". There's better ways to deal with this and exponential energy drain is probably just something taken from ember's rework or vice versa to spare time. One option off the top of my head would be to cap  how many enemies he can consume, scaling with stats.
   My biggest problem with grendel having EE Drain is that THIS applies to his entire kit. You can think that all his abilities are free sure... but they're not. His feast ability is the energy drain for your ultimate. His feast becomes near useless in a full squad of corrosive projection. His feast doesn't actually give you armor, that's his passive FOR SOME REASON STILL, Feast energy drain is required for nourish which already costs energy by itself, feast is required for regurgitate. His feast is an energy drain for his whole kit. For him to even be functional he needs to be eating his own energy. Why would he be made with this mechanic. Unlike valkyr he's not unkillable with enemies inside him.

   I'm... satisfied with ember's energy drain, but the result is underwhelming. Ember's main flaw is that she demands too much attention for what you gain in return. You only get 90% at max, "ONLY 90% WHAT DO YOU WANT!?" well, vex armor, shield of shadows, splinter storm, and so many other abilities provide the same bonus either passively or are easily achievable without the upkeep immolate does. Even then they all come with added benefits like damage reflection or enemy diversion. Even buffs like scarab armor, warding halo, and iron skin overshadow immolation. Halo provides 90% and status immunity. Iron Skin can go up to 100% with the right build and has simple upkeep. Scarab Armor doesn't even require energy or health to maintain. Even gauss laughs at her attempts to maintain immolation as he can easily stay above redline.
   Her immolation draining exponentially more and more energy isn't stupid but it certainly doesn't feel like you're getting an edge over other tanks in return for your attention. Now i'd find this somewhat more excusable if her augment allowed you to ghost past 90%. By that I mean you cap at 90% but the ghost stat would mean you have 180% damage reduction on immolation. This would allow the augment to still provide a 90% damage reduction to her team. Even this still is somewhat underpowered but would be appreciated. I mean gara can apply 90% damage reduction to her allies why can't ember.

   EE Drain seems unfair when so many other warframes are free of this mechanic. I'm not i want this applied to them god no. But if this is going to be a thing DE needs to make you feel like your effort and skill are rewarded. As it stands the current examples of EE Draining give basic results instead of great results for having mastery over energy control. The reason it was implemented was to make the frame more interactive and skill based but it won't work unless all parts of the system are functionally seamless similar to how gauss works.

[Goodwill]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

this is detrimental to build diversity. she has a ridiculous energy drain on top of being ability spam. fireball is now a ranged landslide and fireblast is on spam to not have to be out of energy from immolation while being out of energy because its costs to much already.

Her being detrimental to build diversity is less to do with her energy drain, but more that she does not really require to be modded for duration or range. She's too efficient in that regard and other frames have similar issues (benefits).

[Chaemyerelis]

I like juggling abilities. The frame feels interactive as opposed to the set and forget frames like Mesa.

[Leqesai]

The ramping of energy cost does feel anti-fun. They lead players towards particular builds instead of letting them be a bit more free with what they want to do (thus removing options for fun). 

 

I'm really not sure why Grendel and Ember have ramping energy costs to be quite honest. Neither frame is broken by a set energy cost. 

If the point behind Grendel is so he doesn't suck up tons and tons of enemies then make it so sucking up more enemies causes them to take more damage. Or make it so enemies slowly take more damage the longer they're in his stomach, so he can't just store tons of enemies. Or limit the max amount of enemies he can hold at once (10 is a good number).

Ember makes less sense to me. I'm really not sure why they'd implement the energy cost ramp-up... What makes sense to me is increase the base drain by like 30% and when you use the 3 to reduce her heat level it causes an -extra- layer of hardened armor (fast cooling metal) for a few seconds with an amount dependent on the amount drained from the heat bar. Say 50% drain off the heat bar translates to an extra 100 armor (dependent on power strength). This way you don't suffer as much of a damage reduction while juggling her abilities. 

[Annnoth]

I might be okay with them, but they just ramp up so unbelievably quick. With grendel I eat 5 guys to get some armor, I have to spit them out within 15 seconds because the energy cost is too much for a 250 armor buff. Nourish energy + rage helps greatly but any more than 5 is that number becomes silly very quick. If you plan on using regurgitate you better not eat too much because there's no benefit to having more than a couple and by the time you get through many of them the cost of feast ramped up and you need to just expel them and start over. The worst part is I just expel them to suck them back up assuming they don't die so I'm not sure what I'm achieving here to be honest.

it's all the worse when grendel has to eat enemies to do ANYTHING.

[Genoscythe]

Ember can be managed, I get DE don't want a frame that nukes quite a lot and easily to also be a damage sponge without effort, lowering the fire blast cost according to heat level would be a solution, because right now high eficiency build with exothermic are pretty much the only way to sustain. About Grendel it feels a bit harsh to drain energy for something he requires to cast other abilities. There needs to be something like a minimum of enemies he can hold before consuming any energy.

Rising energy drain is OK if there's a fair way to counter it, it's a bit wonky at the moment but could be made more accessible with some small adjustments. Not everyone has a full set of arcane energize, after all.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Genoscythe