bullet jumping is bad, should be regulated

[MJ12]

2 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

I have actually been thinking about this lately as well.

The main problem with Warframe's movement system is that all the different traversal options are not properly balanced against each other. Specifically, bullet jumping is more effective in more situations than any other option. This is why most people tend to bullet jump everywhere, instead of ever bothering to sprint, aimglide, or wallrun. But, its also the least interesting movement option, because it lets you ignore the terrain, instead of interacting with it. It makes it so that good level design doesn't matter. Why bother following a fun and intricate wall running path through a room, when you could just bullet jump across instead?

Bullet jumping does have its place, though. I just think it is a bit too good right now. I think a hard cooldown that would completely stop you from using it whenever would just end up being frustrating. But, maybe if they added some sort of "diminishing returns" system, like Erwes mentioned with the dodging in Smash Brothers. Every consecutive bullet jump would go a shorter and shorter distance, until you stopped for a bit to let it recharge. That way, you couldn't use it to simply fly through the entire level. But you could still use it for big gaps, or quick escapes.

This is an extremely myopic understanding of game balance, because it erroneously assumes that every single option at any time must be balanced alongside every other option, which isn't true. Having one option that's head and shoulders better than other options isn't bad balance all of the time (or even most of the time-game mechanics are almost always explicitly designed to encourage and reward specific playstyles, and do so by making a specific playstyle better than other playstyles), because a lot of the time options are not mutually exclusive with each other and having a strictly stronger option isn't a problem so long as every single tool has a purpose, even if that purpose is niche. 

This applies perfectly to Warframe mobility options, because you don't have to choose between mobility options. You have access to all of them at the same time, and they all complement each other because they don't actually do the same thing. Wallruns are useful for climbing, for small adjustments to positioning, and for angles which a bullet jump can't make. Sprinting isn't really a movement 'option' at this point given that there are no costs to sprinting, Warframes ready weapons instantly from sprint, and therefore it might as well be treated as the default (which is something Steve has mused about doing-getting rid of 'sprint' and making all Warframes' default movespeeds equal to their current sprinting speeds). Nevertheless, even sprinting is useful for slide movement, which is part of how you build and keep momentum in Warframe. Aimgliding is helpful for air control and crossing gaps, even with the existence of bullet jumps-it complements bullet jumping extraordinarily well.

And in a game with RNG maps and tons of different tilesets and tiles, you don't want mobility to be so tile dependent that you need to do things like "follow a fun and intricate wall running path through a room," because it means a poorly designed tile is less likely to be a huge issue. Titanfall's movement is fun, sure, but it's also extremely dependent on very tight map design, and the fun you get drops precipitously if you run into a bad map. And when you need to "follow a fun and intricate wall running path through a room" to get maximum speed, it makes veteran rushers even more frustrating for new players because not only do you need to realize that you can move faster than just sprinting, but now doing so is significantly more difficult than just using bullet-jumps. This not only means that the veterans will be frustrated (because newbies will take forever to catch up), but the newbies will be discouraged by the difficulty of faster movement and the speed differential.

Edited November 7, 2019 by MJ12

[rand0mname]

Think bigger. I suggest punishing those players who mindlessly hop around. If one falls into a pit, one should die.

On a serious note, I would just use Operators in place of bullet jumps. But if I would have more opportunities for cool ways of moving around, like wall runs... well, maybe I would jump less. Maybe.

Edit: why there are so many “nerf this” and “limit that” threads?

Edited November 7, 2019 by rand0mname

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

How about you, yourself, stop bullet jumping if you dont like it. 

There's also a hundred other games with weak, real life little hop jumps out there for you to utilize since you dont like moving too fast.

Hope you didnt play the spiderman game, he does a lot more than bullet jumping lol. Maybe head over to those forums when you're done.

[Emolition]

6 minutes ago, rand0mname said:

Edit: why there are so many “nerf this” and “limit that” threads?

They want Destiny 2 style slow and bullet sponge enemies =P

[Mr.Fluffins]

36 minutes ago, rand0mname said:

Edit: why there are so many “nerf this” and “limit that” threads?

Same man, what the hell is going on? Can please some of you "no fun" people move on somewhere else?

"Give abilities cooldowns" "Nerf bullet jumping" Thank GOD you people aren't in charge of game design. Seriously, if you want this kind of stuff, go elsewhere, play Destiny, play Anthem (lol), Borderlands, Division, I don't care, but please stop trying to infect this fun game with such unfun slowdown mechanics that benefit NO ONE. I am sick and TIRED of modern slow shooters, I used to love stuff like Unreal Tournament 2004 and Tribes Ascend where sh8t was FAST, it's one of the reasons I love this game.

EDIT. Or guys better yet, if you want this stuff, PLAY AT YOUR OWN FREAKING PACE instead trying to limit EVERYONE else in the game! "Oh but pubs are not going to.." Then don't PLAY with pubs, form groups of like minded individuals and run throught the whole level with sprint only for all I care, or play solo, instead of trying to force everyone else into your ruleset.

If you take away the speed of this game, people like me won't be able to make it faster, but YOU can make it slower for yourself right now if you want.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Mr.Fluffins

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, Erwes said:

It is not normal that it's the fastest way to travel on a flat land rather than running.

but it isn't. spamming Bullet Jump is slower than using Parkour at its fullest. so, there is no problem to begin with.
you're free to spam one button if you like, but that's your deal and if you don't like that, you're the one doing it, not everyone else.

 

and besides, your 'idea' is basically to make Player Movement have RNG in it.
what an amazing Gameplay Design.

1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

you don't want mobility to be so tile dependent that you need to do things like "follow a fun and intricate wall running path through a room," because it means a poorly designed tile is less likely to be a huge issue. Titanfall's movement is fun, sure, but it's also extremely dependent on very tight map design, and the fun you get drops precipitously if you run into a bad map.

and any such situation where you have a predetermined route that you have to take, where even IS the 'fun', anyways. you're not figuring anything out, you're just following directions.
idunno about anyone else but i stopped getting excited about being able to follow directions before i was even 10, let alone today.
do people get excited when they are using GPS guidance and they are successfully able to turn left in 500Ft as directed? god, i hope not. there's nothing exciting about it.

Edited November 7, 2019 by taiiat

[Erwes]

c'mon I played way before coptering. Stop the troll, and be constructive to begin with. 

And for god sake, the topic is not about taking away bullet jumping. 

chill out

Edited November 7, 2019 by Erwes

[Erwes]

Citation

but it isn't. spamming Bullet Jump is slower than using Parkour at its fullest

because you think jumping should be faster than running initially ?

[Erwes]

Citation

I used to love stuff like Unreal Tournament 2004 and Tribes Ascend where sh8t was FAST, it's one of the reasons I love this game.

That's some pvp game. Hope you try Doom 2016, really great.

[Teljaxx]

1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

This is an extremely myopic understanding of game balance, because it erroneously assumes that every single option at any time must be balanced alongside every other option, which isn't true. Having one option that's head and shoulders better than other options isn't bad balance all of the time (or even most of the time-game mechanics are almost always explicitly designed to encourage and reward specific playstyles, and do so by making a specific playstyle better than other playstyles), because a lot of the time options are not mutually exclusive with each other and having a strictly stronger option isn't a problem so long as every single tool has a purpose, even if that purpose is niche. 

This applies perfectly to Warframe mobility options, because you don't have to choose between mobility options. You have access to all of them at the same time, and they all complement each other because they don't actually do the same thing. Wallruns are useful for climbing, for small adjustments to positioning, and for angles which a bullet jump can't make. Sprinting isn't really a movement 'option' at this point given that there are no costs to sprinting, Warframes ready weapons instantly from sprint, and therefore it might as well be treated as the default (which is something Steve has mused about doing-getting rid of 'sprint' and making all Warframes' default movespeeds equal to their current sprinting speeds). Nevertheless, even sprinting is useful for slide movement, which is part of how you build and keep momentum in Warframe. Aimgliding is helpful for air control and crossing gaps, even with the existence of bullet jumps-it complements bullet jumping extraordinarily well.

And in a game with RNG maps and tons of different tilesets and tiles, you don't want mobility to be so tile dependent that you need to do things like "follow a fun and intricate wall running path through a room," because it means a poorly designed tile is less likely to be a huge issue. Titanfall's movement is fun, sure, but it's also extremely dependent on very tight map design, and the fun you get drops precipitously if you run into a bad map. And when you need to "follow a fun and intricate wall running path through a room" to get maximum speed, it makes veteran rushers even more frustrating for new players because not only do you need to realize that you can move faster than just sprinting, but now doing so is significantly more difficult than just using bullet-jumps. This not only means that the veterans will be frustrated (because newbies will take forever to catch up), but the newbies will be discouraged by the difficulty of faster movement and the speed differential.

I never said it all has to be perfectly even. Proper balance rarely means everything is exactly the same. But there does need to be a good reason to use every option given to you. Otherwise, why have them? If this were a single player game, you would be right. Having unbalanced options wouldn't be much of a problem, because every player would be free to choose whatever they wanted to use, OP or not. But in a multiplayer game, there needs to be limitations. Otherwise, as long as one player uses the meta, everyone else has to as well, or they get left behind.

Right now, bullet jumping is far better than anything else in almost any situation. You mentioned a couple cases where other things are useful. But just how often do you ever actually do those? And how often do you bullet jump? The instances where bullet jumping is not the best option are extremely rare.

This wouldn't really be a problem if bullet jumping was the most fun option. You have to remember, almost all of the tilesets in this game were designed before bullet jumping existed. They were created with just sprinting and wall running in mind, not flying. And because of that, they used to be much more interesting to traverse. Have you ever noticed just how many little wall running spots there are all over the place? And how often do you ever see anyone use them? Everyone just bullet jumps around instead, meaning that all that nice map design has completely gone to waste.

Part of learning how to play used to be learning all the best paths through each tile. But now, you don't have to learn anything, because the answer is pretty much always "bullet jump". Its just one of the many ways this game has gotten less interesting over time.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good high mobility movement system in a game. I am extremely glad that Warframe doesn't use the all too common, and lazy, "jog and jump" setup that basically every other shooter sticks to. And I do like bullet jumping. But, as I said, it is just a bit too good right now. It shouldn't completely go away, but it does need to be a bit more limited than it is now.

[Anarbitrio]

I wouldn't mind if bullet jumping stayed, but sprinting were the optimal way of moving faster. There really isn't a reason to not just jump all the time. Even with heavy modding, most frames are still faster when bullet jumping.

Was that intended? I mean the fact that the main form of movement would have to be jumping instead of running?

Edited November 7, 2019 by Anarbitrio

[Erwes]

Citation

But there does need to be a good reason to use every option given to you. Otherwise, why have them? If this were a single player game, you would be right. Having unbalanced options wouldn't be much of a problem, because every player would be free to choose whatever they wanted to use, OP or not. But in a multiplayer game, there needs to be limitations. Otherwise, as long as one player uses the meta, everyone else has to as well, or they get left behind.

 

Damn I couldn't say better. I'm not an english speaker myself so it's difficult to express clearly and defend an opinion, thanks

[-QUILL_PETER-]

6 hours ago, RX-3DR said:

a limitation on Bullet Jumping rapidly

You mean like some kind stamina system?

[Heiven]

1 hour ago, Erwes said:

And for god sake, the topic is not about taking away bullet jumping. 

True its not, but is it so? Your main argument is that high mobility should be in favor of sprinting than bullet jumping. But if its made like that, then what would be the point of using bullet jumping at all? And in that sense wouldn't it be fair to say that if DE makes so then bullet jumping should just have to be removed!?

Also lets not forget that the bullet jumping we have now is how DE envision it when they first introduced it. Sure it over shadows sprinting and it does bother me from time to time but i suggest instead of changing the bullet jumping system how about we change sprinting? As in improving it like say: wall running at the same time as you sprint(that could be really funny, like in the matrix movies) plus additional parkour velocity, plus some new moving animations to make things faster, more fluid and more interesting in the closed tile sets where bullet jumping isn't so great?!

Don't change what works good, change the thing that's lacking.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Heiven

[MJ12]

29 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

I never said it all has to be perfectly even. Proper balance rarely means everything is exactly the same. But there does need to be a good reason to use every option given to you. Otherwise, why have them? If this were a single player game, you would be right. Having unbalanced options wouldn't be much of a problem, because every player would be free to choose whatever they wanted to use, OP or not. But in a multiplayer game, there needs to be limitations. Otherwise, as long as one player uses the meta, everyone else has to as well, or they get left behind.

Right now, bullet jumping is far better than anything else in almost any situation. You mentioned a couple cases where other things are useful. But just how often do you ever actually do those? And how often do you bullet jump? The instances where bullet jumping is not the best option are extremely rare.

This wouldn't really be a problem if bullet jumping was the most fun option. You have to remember, almost all of the tilesets in this game were designed before bullet jumping existed. They were created with just sprinting and wall running in mind, not flying. And because of that, they used to be much more interesting to traverse. Have you ever noticed just how many little wall running spots there are all over the place? And how often do you ever see anyone use them? Everyone just bullet jumps around instead, meaning that all that nice map design has completely gone to waste.

Part of learning how to play used to be learning all the best paths through each tile. But now, you don't have to learn anything, because the answer is pretty much always "bullet jump". Its just one of the many ways this game has gotten less interesting over time.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good high mobility movement system in a game. I am extremely glad that Warframe doesn't use the all too common, and lazy, "jog and jump" setup that basically every other shooter sticks to. And I do like bullet jumping. But, as I said, it is just a bit too good right now. It shouldn't completely go away, but it does need to be a bit more limited than it is now.

The problem with unbalanced options is when they're options and lock you out of other, superior, options. There are no opportunity costs to having bullet jumping and wallrunning and mantling and sprinting and dodging and regular jumping. You don't have to choose between Sprint and Bullet Jump. You don't have to choose between Aimglide and Bullet Jump. You don't have to ask yourself "do I want to wall run, or do I want to bullet jump?" The options all exist as default capabilities, which are useful for different things. So it doesn't actually matter that bullet jumping is by far stronger than the other movement options because the other movement options are not actually competing with bullet jump. Complaining about the 'bullet jump meta' is seeing a fighting game and complaining about the 'punch and kick meta.' Or maybe angrily complaining about the 'shooting guns at enemies meta' in Call of Duty. Bullet jumping is the core element of Parkour 2.0 and the Warframe movement system, of course it's going to "outclass" other movement mechanics, which are pretty clearly specialist mechanics that exist to complement bullet-jumps, not as a replacement for bullet-jumps. Knowing when to use said mechanics is important and will get you farther in movement, but they're not supposed to be alternatives to bullet jumping and therefore they aren't balanced as alternatives to bullet-jumping. They're aids to bullet-jumping (the core of the movement system) and work fine in that context.

And bullet jumping has actually made movement in Warframe better. Now, instead of having to memorize specific paths in each tile, you just need to get a feel for your movement abilities, making the game both more interesting and actually making skill, rather than rote memorization, useful. Now you can actually go through tiles quickly, without having to memorize specific shortcuts, if you understand that vertical obstacles aren't really obstacles, you can basically climb any surface of any height, and you can glide very long distances. This means that you don't need walkthroughs or rote learning, all you need is practice and understanding the movement system. I was there when the tilesets were "much more interesting to traverse" and they sucked, dude. The game was slower, movement was fiddlier and more frustrating, rushers just stacked endless sprint mods or Zorencoptered to skip content, creating the exact same problem except if you didn't load up on equipment specifically to rush, you would never be able to make comparable speed to a rusher, and it wasn't all that fun or useful to do fiddly wallrunning (which tended to only be actually useful for a handful of puzzles) based upon rote memorization of predetermined paths.

Edited November 7, 2019 by MJ12

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

THe bullet jump was settled on after significant research into the problem back when coptering became a big thing.  if its adjusted much from what it is a significant part of player base will just look for a new coptering mechanic that is not ment to be in game

[(PSN)death404]

4 hours ago, Fast_Pickle said:

I love meme topics that bait replies.  next you're gonna tell me forma should take 3 days to craft to prevent players from leveling too fast

I assumed the OP was trolling w this thread. I think he's actually serious. 

[(NSW)Quarky]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Cargan2016 said:

THe bullet jump was settled on after significant research into the problem back when coptering became a big thing.  if its adjusted much from what it is a significant part of player base will just look for a new coptering mechanic that is not ment to be in game

Actually, why haven't we found another movement mechanic to layer on top of bullet jumping? I want mooooooore speeeeeeed. Like, I wish volt's speed boost or Nova's escape velocity applied to bullet jump, I would be so happy.

1 minute ago, (PS4)death404 said:

I assumed the OP was trolling w this thread. I think he's actually serious. 

I... think I might have to agree. The opening post wasn't condescending enough to trip my trolldar but the specific topic has obviously been hashed and rehashed soooo shrug.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

The movement of the game works fine as is.  If anything it takes to long atm to get movement mods like rush.  Or get your archwing launcher for venus or cetus.

New players get shafted greatly.  Our greatest advantage over the ai is our speed and movement.

Which then suffers again once we unlock the operater and haven't powered it up.

The game isn't a hardcore dark souls kinda game.  Its a casual looter shooter.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

they could "solve" " this (I don't see it as a problem but sure) by one of the following:

- make sprint speed mods worth a damn outside of meme builds.

- bring back Coptering BUT with a cooldown, or a mechanic where you can either use a heavy attack as normal or use it in mid-air for a burst of speed.

- increase the base movement speed of all Warframes slightly.

personally though I think if you're being that bothered by others bullet jumping, avoid people or don't use it yourself. or use a frame that can move fast without parkour like Nova or Gauss.

[Erwes]

Citation

True its not, but is it so? Your main argument is that high mobility should be in favor of sprinting than bullet jumping.

sorry it's not. The two things should communicate, neither one should take over the other and it isn't the case. 

 

Also. big reveal. Speed doesn't mean skill 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Erwes

[Joltyboi]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

feet exclusiveness.

thanks for the chuckle :D

[BLI7Z]

I just don't understand why people want to lower Warframe's power. 

Isn't that the fun thing about playing Warframe?? Having immense power at our disposal?

Nerfing movement, or power levels should NEVER be an option. But buff AI of enemies and their mechanics.

There are plenty other games in which you can feel helpless and with no power against enemies. Warframe was never like that.

DE is listening to the wrong kind of ideas, they are totally ruining their own game because of this.

Edited November 7, 2019 by BLI7Z

[Giagantic]

I heartily disagree, Bullet jumping is one of the best things added to Warframe since it's inception.

Pure Bullet Jumping isn't the fastest but rather a combination of things such as Bullet Jumping, mid-air rolling, sprinting and so forth. This takes skill and knowledge of knowing when to use what. Bullet Jumping in smaller spaces is much more janky and likely to result in hitting something like a wall. Sprinting in these spaces is much more controllable and convenient especially if on say mission types like exterminate. There are uses for everything and it is dependent on the frame you are using, the map, etc...

It does not matter that we can run by enemies, even without Bullet jumping we could do the same. Regardless of the AI improvements, we could do the same barring the addition of some crazy things like an ordinary grineer being able to catch a tenno in their warframe.

 

Also, your statement,

"It's overused, it's an issue. The mechanic is too powerfull. It is not normal that it's the fastest way to travel on a flat land rather than running."

Kinda of confuses me purely because I don't get why you are trying hold space ninja's to real life logic. (This is also ignoring that it isn't universally true that the fastest on flat land is bullet jumping, it is frame and build dependent.)

Edited November 7, 2019 by Giagantic

[Joltyboi]

like other people keep saying, bullet jumping isnt the sole thing that makes you go so fast, its a combination of things from the whole movement system

1: bullet jump

2: jump immediately afterwards

3: roll

do all that in very quick succession over and over and youll go just about as fast as you can with the movement system, and like others are saying, warframes about having immense power, people need to stop suggesting to bring our power levels down all the time, youre asking warframe to change the type of game it is and thats the last thing it needs