bullet jumping is bad, should be regulated

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

1 minute ago, Joltyboi said:

just here to point out that "should be regulated" was never in the title originally and was probably only added for all the backlash about how removing it or nerfing it would be a stupid idea

Noticed that too cause definitely remembered a different title cause there's no way there's another person complaining about bullet jumping for petty reasons

[PhoenixFury]

Good joke m8, 10/10, got my reply.

[mraz641]

On 2019-11-07 at 3:38 PM, Erwes said:

 

 

It's unbalanced. So it's overused. So it's an issue. The mechanic is too powerfull. It is not normal that it's the fastest way to travel on a flat land rather than running.  

 

Because of some extreme defenders I can not see DE take it off, it's part of the identity of Warframe.

However the game would benefit from quite a simple thing : REGULATION. "Excesses and debauchery demoralize infinitely more than privations" say Émile de Girardin.

Because I like constructive criticism here an example from myself that I'm sure will inspire you others : just add a countdown, few seconds, or more you spam less it's effective kind of limitation, you will have to wait to be able to reuse it normally (it's just an idea).

Remember when SSBu change the dodging to make it less and less effective when you spam it, that was an issue and a complain on the SSB wiiu version.

 

That's one of the reason that I slowly began playing play less and less to finally just come back for big updates. For me it is obvious that it participates in the problems difficulty of the game. It breaks the level design, the ia reaction which can't keep up and also some warframe abilities that are less effective (invisbility was a thing, now I don't remember feeling sufficiently in danger to have to think of his using or find it cool anymore).

Were are space ninja, not space grasshopper...

 

Edit  :

1. Also, it's not wanting a return of the old parkour systeme, stamina bar, or the removing of bullet jump. It's about balancing of a badly implemented gameplay design. 
2. Buffing generally breaks more than it repairs. Changing everything just because of one thing and hoping it will coherently work is illusory.
3. I think the game have more to offer than just grinding infinitely, and the "fun" shouldn't be limited to that. Otherwise the gameplay is just an excuse to slow you down from having your reward and so spending more time in the game. And if so just go play hazard base game, or go to the casino. 
4. Take the time to understand that I don't want to modify the game for my own selfish pleasure. I want the game to respect itself, respect the effort of DE, and showing that there is some core issue in the game, fixing the news update will never make the game "better". Content is basically just a pretext for you to spend more time on a game by agitating new, shinning things. 
5. Bonus, your fun is personal, people enjoy different things. I respect that. But "fun" doesn't mean "right". My point is not that I hate the mechanic, it's about what I can't enjoy with. Bullet jump breaks what the game itself is proposing (it's obviously not the only thing of course).

 

As I'm not an english speakers myself here some quotes in this thread that I like which really well explained what I wanted to show : 

by @Teljaxx :

on bullet jumping overused

on nerfing and buffing

by @Pallie

by @Mach25

by @CephalonSolo

i like everything about this, bullet jumping makes grinding bareble but without bulletjumping it would be more strategic, boxes would have a use of you hiding behind them. i would like bullet jumping to be gone, that way every mission wont be a speedrun and teamplay will  become more of an option, ash teleport would be usefull again(after melee 3.0), but if its too big of a bandage to take off, then like op said make it being lower and lower distance the more you use it.99% people who cry about stamina bar coming back never even played with stamina bar. warframe before bulletjump was something different. and i would like for it to be what it was meant to be, not what people who wanted to break the map and speed things wanted it to be. there should be more people like op(we already have nerfed bulletjump that operators use, and its much better because of the cooldown, imagine operators just spamming ctrl space to traverse everything, thats what DE allowed with bulletjump). we are not grasshoppers, we are the tenno, we are space ninjas

[Aadi880]

7 minutes ago, mraz641 said:

i like everything about this, bullet jumping makes grinding bareble but without bulletjumping it would be more strategic, boxes would have a use of you hiding behind them. i would like bullet jumping to be gone, that way every mission wont be a speedrun and teamplay will  become more of an option, ash teleport would be usefull again(after melee 3.0), but if its too big of a bandage to take off, then like op said make it being lower and lower distance the more you use it.99% people who cry about stamina bar coming back never even played with stamina bar. warframe before bulletjump was something different. and i would like for it to be what it was meant to be, not what people who wanted to break the map and speed things wanted it to be. there should be more people like op(we already have nerfed bulletjump that operators use, and its much better because of the cooldown, imagine operators just spamming ctrl space to traverse everything, thats what DE allowed with bulletjump). we are not grasshoppers, we are the tenno, we are space ninjas

Problem. If you think "Bullet jumping" is the most ideal movement that players perform, you are playing the game wrong here.
Bullet-jumping is not the cause of players "speed running" missions. Far from it actually. It primarily used in combat than it is in being used in traversal

This does:

Slide - Bulletjump - AirGlide - Roll - AirGlide - MultiAirSlide and OperatorVoidDash.

Sliding is more used than bullet jump.

If you want the players to play what you think is best, you will have to "regulate" EVERY SINGLE mode of movement, and I'll tell you, that's never gonna happen if DE wants their movement to remain fluid.

Remember coptering? The thing that inspired DE to introduce bullet jump? You know that you can still do coptering with the reworked melee stances? Yeah, that's what's gonna happen.
And yes, space ninjas involves being a grass-hopper, specially since survivability depends on it on higher levels of content.

[Erwes]

Citation

just here to point out that "should be regulated" was never in the title originally and was probably only added for all the backlash about how removing it or nerfing it would be a stupid idea

Noo way it's possible. Who could do that. What a monster

 

Also, I don't modified the original text, and it was already writted regulated if you had read. I just added it in the title to help you understand, because i'm a kind and patient man. 

[Celimbor]

What should be regulated is the amount of inane posts, like this OP, or DE might actually start considering some of those completely moronic suggestions and turn the game into an even bigger slog.

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

For f sake OP. Bullet jumps ARE OPTIONAL.............. No one forces you to do it. Effectively all you're saying is, "others travel in a way that displeases me, so DE should nerf it and take it away" 

Where do you get off arrogantly telling the community, "my way is better, and you should suck it up and learn to play my way"? 

We get it your skills in movement are sub par. Get gudder....... 

[eboomer]

The OP must just be trolling?  The parkour system is by far my favorite part of the game, and bullet jumping is the backbone of that system.  And I'm FAAAAAR from the only person that thinks that way.  And this game has more mobility options than any other game I'm aware of, like Volt speed boost, Wisp's Haste mote, Zephyr's air dashing, movement speed mods, void dashing, Hydroid's tidal wave, Wukong's Cloud Walker, Nova's teleporting, Gauss's 1, K-Drive, and Archwing.  If you can't find mobility options in all that which suit your fancy, the problem is not with the game.

[k05h]

Am 7.11.2019 um 15:38 schrieb Erwes:

Because of some extreme defenders I can not see DE take it off, it's part of the identity of Warframe.

For me personally bullet jump is part of Warframe's identity, as wall-running is for Titanfall, long-jumps are for Dirty Bomb and floaty slow jumps for Destiny. 

I would not like to see nerfed. It is just part of the Warframe power fantasy that provides a fast paced gameplay. There you have it and I know you wont like it 😉

[taiiat]

On 2019-11-07 at 4:14 PM, Erwes said:

because you think jumping should be faster than running initially ?

well, yes. it should be. because Parkour is more complex and interactive than just holding W is. so yes, more complex Movement should be better than less complex Movement.

otherwise why is there even a human sitting in front of my Computer playing Warframe, a robot can hold W and M1 just fine.

[Teljaxx]

2 hours ago, k05h said:

For me personally bullet jump is part of Warframe's identity, as wall-running is for Titanfall, long-jumps are for Dirty Bomb and floaty slow jumps for Destiny. 

I would not like to see nerfed. It is just part of the Warframe power fantasy that provides a fast paced gameplay. There you have it and I know you wont like it 😉

To me, sliding and wallrunning are the main things that give Warframe's movement its identity, not bullet jumping. I think that bullet jumping has ruined that identity, and replaced it with something much less interesting.

This is partly because I started playing long before parkour 2.0, so I played for a very long time without ever having the option of bullet jumping. And I'm curious: Just how many of the people defending bullet jumping have ever played the game without it? Either playing before it existed, or by choosing not to use it. If you never have, you should try it sometime. You might be surprised at what you find.

[(PSN)OccultSif]

What next are you gonna go onto a Smash board and say they should take your Up B if you decide to jump first because that's too much recovery?

It's a movement system. Frames still at their slowest besides Cold procced are a lot faster than almost any enemy in the game. Besides, if you put a limiter on bullet jump people will then just literally run past everything instead of bullet jump past everything.

[Teljaxx]

2 hours ago, (PS4)OccultSif said:

What next are you gonna go onto a Smash board and say they should take your Up B if you decide to jump first because that's too much recovery?

It's a movement system. Frames still at their slowest besides Cold procced are a lot faster than almost any enemy in the game. Besides, if you put a limiter on bullet jump people will then just literally run past everything instead of bullet jump past everything.

Your argument fails because Smash Bros was designed with up B recovery moves from the very beginning. Warframe was not originally designed with bullet jumping in mind.

If up B recoveries were added to Smash Bros years later, the way bullet jumping was in Warframe, then it very well could have been "too much recovery" because the entire game would have already been properly balanced without them. So, by adding more recovery than necessary, it would make getting KOs much harder than originally intended. Matches would drag on forever as no one died, and the whole game would suffer from a single unplanned change.

This is the same thing that has happened with Warframe. Not just with movement, either. Because of how many things have been added, or modified, in this game after the fact, very little still works the way it was originally intended to. And almost none of these changes have been properly accounted for by DE. This has led to rampant powercreep, almost nothing being balanced properly, and a complete lack of challenging or engaging gameplay. Bullet jumping is one of the many contributors to all those problems.

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

17 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

...Because of how many things have been added, or modified, in this game after the fact, very little still works the way it was originally intended to. And almost none of these changes have been properly accounted for by DE. This has led to rampant powercreep, almost nothing being balanced properly, and a complete lack of challenging or engaging gameplay. Bullet jumping is one of the many contributors to all those problems.

Its really not my man. Bullet jumping and warframes movement in general are it’s best features. Nerfing it or changing it would be a really bad idea. A better path forward would be altering the rest of the game to play nice with how mobile we are. If you look at the newer content, that’s actually what DE is doing.

The new Jupiter Gas City is built to really test peoples traversal abilities with all the door traps, puzzles and bottomless pits. The next Level rework will probabaly do more of the same.

[Joltyboi]

3 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

To me, sliding and wallrunning are the main things that give Warframe's movement its identity

i can understand wallrunning, but sliding? you can slide in loads of other games, its not anything super special here

oh, and to answer "And I'm curious: Just how many of the people defending bullet jumping have ever played the game without it?" i have, im using a different account because when i came back to PC frame the email used for my original account was no longer around and i forgot the password so i couldnt do anything about it, but i played before parkour 2.0 or even star chart 2.0, so i have played the game without bullet jumping, and i gotta say, bullet jumping and all the other movement systems, when used together to go as fast as you can, is so much better

try doing your next farming run without bullet jumping, or just go and do a good chunk of missions without bullet jumping, and see how far you get before you give up and start doing it again, bullet jumping is great and should not be removed or nerfed, its part of warframe, and the game wouldnt be the same without it

Edited November 11, 2019 by Joltyboi

[Joltyboi]

7 hours ago, Erwes said:

Also, I don't modified the original text

whenever im looking at notifications on the forums i tend to just look at the end of the thread title to see what the notifications on, and i DEFINITELY remember the title ending with "is bad", "should be regulated" was not there before

[Anarbitrio]

33 minutes ago, Joltyboi said:

whenever im looking at notifications on the forums i tend to just look at the end of the thread title to see what the notifications on, and i DEFINITELY remember the title ending with "is bad", "should be regulated" was not there before

Doesn't really matter. The addendum to the title was needed because everyone was acting like the OP wanted to delete bullet jumping from the game.

I'd also see sprinting getting a bit more use. The current system is more akin to constantly swimming horizontally to the ground than it is jumping or running.

It isn't space ninjas, it's space squids.

[CaptainMinty]

Part of what makes Warframe unique is the multitude of ways to play it. Bullet jumping serves an important role of granting the players enhanced mobility without making it a warframe power. Let's not forget that at one point one of Excalibur's abilities was to jump good.

The issue here lies within your approach. A majority of players use bullet jumping because it is a universal ability. Every warframe has it, and it offers speed, and defense while also creating options to close gaps or create one, or even to deny an opponent cover by getting a height advantage. Bullet jumping therefore, is one of our strongest abilities simply because it offers such utility. But at the same time, bullet jumping is also incredibly fun and satisfying.

So why wouldn't you bullet jump? Simple. There are certain ways to play that don't involve bullet jumps. Stealth is a more methodical approach, and slower. Bullet jumping can break Ivara's stealth, and a poorly timed jump can alert the enemies. What about sprinting? A good deal of tankier warframes have poor sprint stats, and as such sprint mods perform poorly on them. However a select few frames have abilities or naturally high sprint speed that benefit their ground maneuverability. Gauss, Loki, and Volt are great examples of this.

Also, to bullet jumping being the answer to even the toughest of challenges, I respond with the Warframe itself is the answer. Mighty may be the bullet jump, but a lot of frames can outright demolish entire rooms with a passing glance, let alone putting effort into it. To avoid a problem is but just one of the many tools in our arsenal of handling problems.

[Teljaxx]

1 hour ago, Joltyboi said:

i can understand wallrunning, but sliding? you can slide in loads of other games, its not anything super special here

oh, and to answer "And I'm curious: Just how many of the people defending bullet jumping have ever played the game without it?" i have, im using a different account because when i came back to PC frame the email used for my original account was no longer around and i forgot the password so i couldnt do anything about it, but i played before parkour 2.0 or even star chart 2.0, so i have played the game without bullet jumping, and i gotta say, bullet jumping and all the other movement systems, when used together to go as fast as you can, is so much better

try doing your next farming run without bullet jumping, or just go and do a good chunk of missions without bullet jumping, and see how far you get before you give up and start doing it again, bullet jumping is great and should not be removed or nerfed, its part of warframe, and the game wouldnt be the same without it

Its Warframe's specific style of sliding that is unique. Most games just give you a quick, slightly faster slide that only goes a very short distance. But Warframe actually has unique physics, and different friction to how its slide works. And, you can use it in the air. So overall, you can do so much more with Warframe's slide than any other game. Especially if you use Nezha or mods to lower your slide friction even more. I have never seen another game that has a slide mechanic that works anything like Warframe's.

 

Basically the only time I ever regularly use bullet jumping is if I am playing online and everyone else is spamming it, so I need to as well to keep up. Otherwise, I only use it sparingly. Mostly in combat, to get in and out of melee fights. I actually have trouble completing the 150 bullet jump Nightwave challenge because I use it so little. I actually use it even less than I used to. I used to use it to line up slam attacks, but I don't need it for that anymore. And since I have been mostly playing Gauss lately, I jyst use Mach Rush whenever I want to go fast.

As I said previously, I do think that bullet jumping has its place in Warframe. But I also think that its current implementation is far too unlimited, and is detrimental to how fun this game can be. Mostly because not enough people have the self control to not just use the dominant strategy every chance they get, even if it means ruining the game for themselves.

[Xaero]

22 minutes ago, CaptainMinty said:

What about sprinting? A good deal of tankier warframes have poor sprint stats, and as such sprint mods perform poorly on them.

So DE wanted to balance tankiness by lower speed. However, the difference in speed between frames is almost completely eliminated by the fact that bullet-jumping capabilities of all frames are equal. Perhaps DE should readjust bullet-jumping speed and distance for each frame individually?

And I mostly agree that bullet-jumping, as well as Operator's dash, eliminate the risks of travelling through enemy hordes towards the target. Limiting bullet-jump/dash capabilities by reducing their speed and distance when spammed too much sounds like a good idea to me.

[Xaero]

2 hours ago, Joltyboi said:

try doing your next farming run without bullet jumping, or just go and do a good chunk of missions without bullet jumping, and see how far you get before you give up and start doing it again, bullet jumping is great and should not be removed or nerfed, its part of warframe, and the game wouldnt be the same without it

I've played some single-player game with money cheats for so long that whenever I start it anew, trying to play fairly, after some time I give up and use money cheats again. Does that mean that money cheats is a good mechanic? Or maybe it means I'm too impatient and addicted to this unfair move?

[Joltyboi]

5 minutes ago, Xaero said:

I've played some single-player game with money cheats for so long that whenever I start it anew, trying to play fairly, after some time I give up and use money cheats again. Does that mean that money cheats is a good mechanic? Or maybe it means I'm too impatient and addicted to this unfair move?

youre comparing a cheat to an in game mechanic, bullet jumping isnt a cheat code you type into the chat to enable something youre normally not supposed to be using

[CaptainMinty]

1 minute ago, Xaero said:

So DE wanted to balance tankiness by lower speed. However, the difference in speed between frames is almost completely eliminated by the fact that bullet-jumping capabilities of all frames are equal. Perhaps DE should readjust bullet-jumping speed and distance for each frame individually?

And I mostly agree that bullet-jumping, as well as Operator's dash, eliminate the risks of travelling through enemy hordes towards the target. Limiting bullet-jump/dash capabilities by reducing their speed and distance when spammed too much sounds like a good idea to me.

Except that reducing speed and distance when jumping repeatedly would slow down the fast pace that Warframe has taken on with stride, and perhaps has become a part of the identity of Warframe.

And you just highlighted yet another problem. The Operator's Void Dash. Void Dash far outclasses bullet jumps in terms of distance, speed, and crowd control. And everyone has it. And it offers invulnerability. Sure, it has an energy cooldown, but, and hear me out, what happens when bullet jumping slows down on consecutive jumps? Players will most likely trade between the two. When their bullet jump slows, they transition to Void Dash, and then back to bullet jumps when dash is on cd, cycling back and forth and we return to the problem that players can just avoid everything again.

Plus, (and this is my experience and opinion) when bullet jumping over enemies and simply avoiding them, it is often to get to extraction, or to a capture target, and then get out. Part of ignoring the enemies is because frankly, why bother shooting them to death when they pose little threat to begin with?

Also, I am a practitioner of the secret Joestar technique, and therefore am legally obligated to use my own legs as efficiently as possible.

[Xaero]

1 hour ago, Joltyboi said:

youre comparing a cheat to an in game mechanic, bullet jumping isnt a cheat code you type into the chat to enable something youre normally not supposed to be using

Does it really make a difference? At one point Iron Skin was on timer and gave you complete immunity to damage. Sounds pretty much like a cheat, no?

1 hour ago, CaptainMinty said:

Except that reducing speed and distance when jumping repeatedly would slow down the fast pace that Warframe has taken on with stride, and perhaps has become a part of the identity of Warframe.

That's pretty arguable. The only fast-paced thing in the game is our movement capabilities. Enemies move and react incredibly slowly compared to us. Objectives don't force us to travel at supersonic speeds (actually, there was one, but it was about archwing, and many players complained that they couldn't keep up). Levels aren't designed for such speed. The game is not even advertised as fast-paced. Have you seen the new intro (not in the game yet)? People in comments: "if you want to know how this game is really played, set video speed to 1.75".

1 hour ago, CaptainMinty said:

Players will most likely trade between the two. When their bullet jump slows, they transition to Void Dash, and then back to bullet jumps when dash is on cd, cycling back and forth and we return to the problem that players can just avoid everything again.

It's all about adjustment level. Spamming wouldn't be so mindless anyways.

1 hour ago, CaptainMinty said:

Plus, (and this is my experience and opinion) when bullet jumping over enemies and simply avoiding them, it is often to get to extraction, or to a capture target, and then get out. Part of ignoring the enemies is because frankly, why bother shooting them to death when they pose little threat to begin with?

My argument was exactly about enemies who possess real threat. You can easily avoid them with bullet-jump/dash spamming. That's actually how I completed Grendel survival challenge on my first try despite being completely unprepared and playing solo.

1 hour ago, CaptainMinty said:

Also, I am a practitioner of the secret Joestar technique, and therefore am legally obligated to use my own legs as efficiently as possible.

Is ThAt A jOjO ReFeReNcE?

Edited November 11, 2019 by Xaero