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Kuva Weapon Rivens + Disposition Process Changes

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3 hours ago, NinjaKitsune56 said:

If you have a Gorgon riven, it's compatible with ALL Gorgon variants. The same with almost every weapon in Warframe, if a weapon has variants, the riven will work for them as well.

Have you actually checked the stats for the Gorgons (in your example)? If you did, you would quickly notice that what you are saying is nonsense, since the variants have different stats and using the same riven on all of them is... well, nuts. Buffing crit chance on a status weapon is just wasting a slot, and vice versa. And the same is true of many of the variants, they differ quite a lot from each other in their basic stats.

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8 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Have you actually checked the stats for the Gorgons (in your example)? If you did, you would quickly notice that what you are saying is nonsense, since the variants have different stats and using the same riven on all of them is... well, nuts. Buffing crit chance on a status weapon is just wasting a slot, and vice versa. And the same is true of many of the variants, they differ quite a lot from each other in their basic stats.

Yes, each variant has its' own benefits and drawbacks. Yes, each one can take better advantage of differing mod loadouts. What I'm saying is that, stats aside, any Gorgon riven can be used on any Gorgon.

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On 2019-11-07 at 1:51 PM, Raikh said:

While Its nice to differentiate weaker versions of the same weapon to stronger primed or similar versions it opens a new can of worms.

You literally can't release a new prime weapon anymore that doesn't absolutely destroy its counterpart if you apply a lower disposition, especially so when the dispo drops below 1.0.

We already have the dilemma with Dragon Nikana and Nikana Prime. Nikana Prime is the distinctively better weapon but Dragon Nikana has a 1.35 dispo, while Nikana P has 0.5. This leads to Dragon Nikana being the stronger weapon with an accordingly strong riven as that allows it to outpace the basic stat advantage of Nikana P. The Issue is softened by not having weapons drop below 1.0 as 1.0 still provides enough stats to solidify the use of a riven and thus the primed version as the stronger one but as soon as it goes lower and the rivens generally are not necessarily worth using that much at all anymore which leads to newly primed weapons being worse than the original for riven invested players.

not really if we remember that prime dispo was affected by base one. With this change there is a great chance that they will became at least on par in riven+ weapon power

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On 2019-11-19 at 5:33 PM, Gilley said:

Well great, now all the forma I put into the Vasto Prime well be wasted and I'll have to re-craft the Vasto and forma and catalyst it, and at the end of the day that's all this change well do, it just means you have to forma and catalyst a different version of the same weapon and the forma and catalyst you put on the other variant is wasted it doesn't do anything crazy like change the meta or anything like that, people are still gonna use the same weapons just now they need to sink more resources in to a different variant. I really hope you guys think about what this change is actually gonna accomplish because this just makes new primes, vandals, etc. pointless for anyone that uses Rivens.

or you should be less dependant on then, as hey are doing what they aways stated tha will do, balance the rivens.Also, unless the prime dispo change soon, the riven isn't wasted.

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On 2019-11-20 at 8:55 AM, Spugelius said:

fJnigem.png

I feel stupid...and betrayed.

Long story short: Got Kuva drakgoon, mastered it, crafted zarr with the fully polarized vanilla one, only to find out the riven is better on the original.

Aight, gimme the dunce cap and put me in the corner.

so, its enough to affect the dps? because if the variant its still higher, that should be the right thng

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18 hours ago, -HoB-AngelofRevenge said:

and 90% of primes are slightly batter than normal counterparts. yet now normal will be batter, so to say, than primes. why have prime In first place? why not fine tune kuva weapons and balance things a bit. karak was not popular until kuva version, brakk also. you could buy their rivens for 10-20p. more insane than this is that we need to invest 5 forma per weapon just for mr fodder and now you get "nerfed". DE need to refund us with invested forma. just 2 forma per weapon would do the job for mr fodder. 

holy molly, the changes aren't even out yet and you already think that the dispo will make the normal ones vastly beter than primes

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On 2019-11-09 at 11:34 AM, Sylonus said:

Yeah, this is a pretty incorrect statement, there are lots of alternate solutions being suggested here, I'm also a vet, the last thing I want is for the riven situation to stay the same, I agreed with the guy a few pages ago who suggested flattening and simplification, personally I think RNG and thus the slot machine that is rivens should be taken out altogether, and it to become a more "build-a-bear" type of system, and balance not being based on use except in extreme cases, (I support Catchmoon's riven Dispo getting nerfed, for example, but not the nerf to the weapon itself).

Plenty of people like myself have criticized this system without saying we want it to stay the same, we just think this particular change is a bad one.

I think one of the best way to at least make the riven market better is to make us 'sacrifice' the mods with the status we want to have in the riven, so no more rng. then maybe make then a little rarer i necessary

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9 minutes ago, LupoDWolf said:

holy molly, the changes aren't even out yet and you already think that the dispo will make the normal ones vastly beter than primes

If it's anything like the difference between kuva and regular weapons, that may well be the case.  Would you really be surprised if a bunch of primes got slapped with a 2-3 dispo while their regular versions stayed at 5?

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16 minutes ago, Aggh said:

If it's anything like the difference between kuva and regular weapons, that may well be the case.  Would you really be surprised if a bunch of primes got slapped with a 2-3 dispo while their regular versions stayed at 5?

Yes if the net result is that trash mastery fodder weapons get better than primed weapons

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"Fun"? 
Reduce the ridiculous grind, then we can call it fun.

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On 2019-12-05 at 11:09 PM, -Kittens- said:

Interested in what, exactly? If the base weapon performs better than the prime, there's zero point in owning a prime; nevermind having a prisma/vandal/wraith as a sidegrade to just straight better but oh wait we need to have four gorgon riven types. Oh by the way you get 120 slots to cover what will now be about 500 rivens.

No comment.

actually it means that you only need a riven until you get the prime or better variant. then the prime performs just as well and i won't need to put in a forma just for a riven. it might occur to people that they don't need a riven for every weapon (not that you needed them before but people did it anyways). There will always be a need to own all of the weapons or at least level them for mastery. the rivens don't give that and are now much more expendable to the general public (who hoarded rivens a lot of the time) which will mean prices might not be as stupid in general and things could relax. it's all good as far as i'm concerned. Rivens were treated as a necessity for every weapon and people gouged eachother to hell over them now they can be seen as a true luxury for some weapons but really not needed for others.

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Beside all the possibilities of actually changing weapon behaviour and focusing ONLY on the dps/"lethality"-factor, rivens have (and should have) a role in weapon progression (towards higher dps/"lethality"):

basic weapon => basic weapon w riven => primed weapon => primed weapon with riven

Currently many rivens simply are too powerful, which both messes this type of understandable "ranking level" up AND moves some "primed with riven" weapons into a "meta-god build" sphere, where the "weapon+riven"-combo is both "too good" and clearly better than other alternatives (at the same level).

But if you nerf rivens overall, they run the risk of becoming unusable if they add so little to a weapon (compared with standard mods) that it doesn't make sense to waste a mod space on a riven.

With exilus slots now available, an easy solution would be to nerf riven stats overall but make all rivens exilus mods => the riven won't add the same level of game-breaking stats to weapons any more, but instead you could add it as "an extra" to your existing build.

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At this point if DE is really determined to mess with rivens, it would be high time they changed how rolling stats works!

It's a slot machine right? Actual slot machines let you keep or roll single lines out of those active, for a price, get us the same functionality on rivens!

If I HAVE to roll a mod 165 times just to get something that isn't +faction damage -recoil - 250% damage, I want at least guaranteed or controllable progression

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On 2019-12-06 at 7:43 PM, LupoDWolf said:

holy molly, the changes aren't even out yet and you already think that the dispo will make the normal ones vastly beter than primes

why not? that is rivens for in forst place xD and which wepon is wasty batter as prime than normal? it is just minor tweak thats all

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To reiterate, if DE intent was to bring trash weapons on par with better material by giving mk1 trash 5 dots of disposition... well it doesn't work very well when you get 90% maluses out of it.

i.e. counterintuitively higher disposition imparts also worse debuffs, so, for instance a despair riven with disposition 4 dots netted me +279% damage and -90% ammo maximum among other stats, where the damage increase is noticeable but not enough to raise the weapon from low tier, but the negative reduces max ammo to 26 kunai plus the 10 in hand...

Edited by Ikusias
fixesome typos

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On 2019-12-08 at 9:25 AM, -HoB-AngelofRevenge said:

why not? that is rivens for in forst place xD and which wepon is wasty batter as prime than normal? it is just minor tweak thats all

Gram prime? 

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Am 6.12.2019 um 19:33 schrieb LupoDWolf:

not really if we remember that prime dispo was affected by base one. With this change there is a great chance that they will became at least on par in riven+ weapon power

It really depends on the weapon and the level of power creep it introduces. Gram vs Gram Prime is such a vast difference that even 1.5 vs 0.5 won't make that difference up. But then again base Gram is incredibly weak and Gram Prime overpowers all the other Heavy Blades quite significantly. A little elss so since U26 which brought them closer together but its still qutie significantly ahead.

But how does that work with for example the Bazza, since we will get it in about a week. Baza is already up there as a weapon. Its not a an ancient bottom of the barrel weapon like base Gram. It mgiht not be the very top but its fiarly wellb budgeted as a weapon. How far higher can you push that weapon without introducing significant power creep? Imagine it gets like 5% crit and status and like 20% more base dmg just as an example. Now the weapon starts being quite popular because thats already fairly strogn as the base is laready a pretty good weapon. DIspo is adjusted to 0.5 for the prime and base sits at the 1.0 it currently has. This disposition difference is already capable of nullifiying the difference between the 2 versions in this particular example. With an especially good roll the base version should even come out ahead.

Now its no guarantee that Baza Prime will drop to 0.5 dispo. There is no guarantee it will be only buffed by 5% CC/SC and 20% base dmg. It might be more, it mgiht be less. But regardless its a fragile point int he system. DE needs to constantly check if a Prime is good enough to not lose against a rivened base variant. They also should not mercilessly powercreep the game to run away from strong high dispo base weapons, especially sicne we already have no content to match the current powerlevel we have.

Its a huge additional balancing act and it can twist either weapon power level or riven power levels in weird ways and we'll have to see if thats worth what we're gaining out of it.

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6 hours ago, Raikh said:

It really depends on the weapon and the level of power creep it introduces. Gram vs Gram Prime is such a vast difference that even 1.5 vs 0.5 won't make that difference up. But then again base Gram is incredibly weak and Gram Prime overpowers all the other Heavy Blades quite significantly. A little elss so since U26 which brought them closer together but its still qutie significantly ahead.

But how does that work with for example the Bazza, since we will get it in about a week. Baza is already up there as a weapon. Its not a an ancient bottom of the barrel weapon like base Gram. It mgiht not be the very top but its fiarly wellb budgeted as a weapon. How far higher can you push that weapon without introducing significant power creep? Imagine it gets like 5% crit and status and like 20% more base dmg just as an example. Now the weapon starts being quite popular because thats already fairly strogn as the base is laready a pretty good weapon. DIspo is adjusted to 0.5 for the prime and base sits at the 1.0 it currently has. This disposition difference is already capable of nullifiying the difference between the 2 versions in this particular example. With an especially good roll the base version should even come out ahead.

Now its no guarantee that Baza Prime will drop to 0.5 dispo. There is no guarantee it will be only buffed by 5% CC/SC and 20% base dmg. It might be more, it mgiht be less. But regardless its a fragile point int he system. DE needs to constantly check if a Prime is good enough to not lose against a rivened base variant. They also should not mercilessly powercreep the game to run away from strong high dispo base weapons, especially sicne we already have no content to match the current powerlevel we have.

Its a huge additional balancing act and it can twist either weapon power level or riven power levels in weird ways and we'll have to see if thats worth what we're gaining out of it.

the chance of a good gimmick can help it. Or a different damage distribuition, or a different direction for the build, like status instead of crit. Its possible to have a increased in dps (making it worth as a prime upgrade) with some small changes. opticor vandal was a good starting example of how DE should start thinking about vaiants of weapons

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On 2019-11-07 at 4:47 PM, Totterson said:

So you guys will be able to ensure all of the newest equipment comes pre-nerfed on disposition. Great. It's exciting alright.

If all the newest equipment comes at a neutral disposition then yes, by your logic, it is pre-nerfed, why don't you just play without rivens if you're so salty about it, I don't use them precisely because their stats change based on popularity, and yet you complain about stats you wouldn't've had in the first place, just ludicrous.

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