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[DE]Connor

Kuva Weapon Rivens + Disposition Process Changes

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So long as Rivens are a popularity contest this system will CONTINUE to have problems. Disposition should be based entirely on the weapon, not the meta. 

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I think this is a horrible idea, because of the complexity involved. You can have the same riven on several weapons but the stats surprisingly change on different weapons, according to two internal number most players never see (the riven's internal roll stats vs the weapon-specific disposition number).

And the disposition number then potentially changes every few months (if the usage changes), making riven-adapted weapon builds moot (achieving 100% status or crit, or other decimal-dependent numbers).

First of all there is absolutely no need to have disposition set with 2 decimals, so just use 1 (decimal). That would make the system a little bit more stable (going from 0.5 up to 1.5 in steps of 0.1). This is actually the same as a 100% scale, starting from a base 50% increase and going up to 150%. 

If you really want weapon-specific disposition, please apply a fixed bonus-difference between "top" versions (prime, kuva, vandal etc.) and "basic" versions, which is the same for ALL weapons. Like 0.2 (or 20%), or 0.3 (30%). So if the top-basic difference was set to 0.3 a riven for "Ogris" would have 1.4 (as an example) and a "Kuva Ogris" would have 1.1 (1.4 - 0.3 = 1.1).

This would be a system we could manage (it would be like the mods). If you need to buff or nerf some weapons to fit them in, just do it.

But making rivens into an even more complex calculation-based system that very few will ever understand and where nothing is connected to anything and nothing is stable... not a good idea.

And on a different note: there are a lot of different weapons that deserve to shine, and they potentially could with a system that specifically buffs them. But the player base generally doesn't appreciate the nuanced differences between weapons, and few are willing to buy weapon slots to even be able to have them ("all weapons"). If you really want more weapons used the way to go is a bigger differentiation in damage types (which means not allowing for status mods making all weapons more or less the same and damage-wise overriding the inherent damage types). Not just equalizing "total damage" or dps for all weapons.

And finally, with disposition weapon-based and not family-based those players who really use riven-based weapon-builds will now want/need different rivens for the different weapons inside the same family, so hopefully you are thinking about doubling or "unlimiting" the number of riven slots. Otherwise the change might actually lead to even less weapon used.

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Generally I'm impartial to rivens because I only use 3 or 4 of the 400 something weapons but 1 of those 4 is opticor vandal and I have a 209.8% damage 206.6%cc -25% reload speed riven for it so this change will effectively put a riven for it on the bottom of the list because it will get nerfed to 0.5 and the normal is Completely unusable anymore it really needs to get buffed 

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On 2019-11-11 at 3:25 PM, tarfeef101 said:

You'll have to be careful not to make this so drastic that "worse" versions of weapons don't end up being better due to disposition. 

i.e. a normal karak + riven shouldn't outperform a kuva/wraith with an equally good riven.

I feel that if that occurs, that kind of "cheapens" primes/vandals/wraiths, etc.

My concern. 

I don't care about plat sales, minus when I've bought them, but I do care about this potential imbalance. Especially when weapons aren't used that often or won't be used often, like properly  used opposed to the usual new prime access spike we see which tends to affect Riven deposition reviews, get hit a bit harder. 

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Currently weapon riven dispositions are hiden till riven for said weapon or veild riven is obtained , can we perhaps have this stats alwasy displayed instead of having it hiden ?

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Well great, now all the forma I put into the Vasto Prime well be wasted and I'll have to re-craft the Vasto and forma and catalyst it, and at the end of the day that's all this change well do, it just means you have to forma and catalyst a different version of the same weapon and the forma and catalyst you put on the other variant is wasted it doesn't do anything crazy like change the meta or anything like that, people are still gonna use the same weapons just now they need to sink more resources in to a different variant. I really hope you guys think about what this change is actually gonna accomplish because this just makes new primes, vandals, etc. pointless for anyone that uses Rivens.

Edited by Gilley

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On 2019-11-09 at 7:07 PM, Morthal said:

Or you could just do the job right the first time. Hire a real team of QA testers and play high level content ( lvl 300+ ). If no, then clearly all of these changes are simply to cause a false conflict, to which at some point DE will be selling the solution. Please don't be the typical mobile game company and join the likes of EA.

Yeah I bet hiring a QA team so they can test content for <.01% of players that play level 300 content would be a great use of company resources lol.

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I think it would be nice if this change was put in the early days of Riven emergence and then relaxed to the current situation.

The problem is that the reverse operation feeling we are considering now will only drain more players.

Weapon variants allow players to have more weapons to try, while Riven is its assistant to let them have more ways to play.

 If you consider reducing the Riven tendency of variants of weapons, you might as well change them to skin.

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2 hours ago, Aggh said:

Yeah I bet hiring a QA team so they can test content for <.01% of players that play level 300 content would be a great use of company resources lol.

What are you even talking about? Taveuni is bugged STILL after 20 hotfixes related to Kuva missions. Just this morning I ran into 4 invisible walls that block enemy pathing and prevent the player from bullet jumping onto platforms and these are bugs that have been known for months now. 
An in house QA team is exactly what DE needs. They aren't paying us and these stupid bugs cause frustration for what is supposed to be a customer, not free labor.
Also, speaking about levels of enemies and Kuva tilesets, in only 20 minutes of Kuva Disruption you'll see level 180 enemies spawn in. that's around 12 waves on average, which is the minimum amount I'd prefer to spend considering the paltry sum of Kuva rewarded. 

Edited by Morthal

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2 minutes ago, Morthal said:

What are you even talking about? Taveuni is bugged STILL after 20 hotfixes related to Kuva missions. Just this morning I ran into 4 invisible walls that block enemy pathing and prevent the player from bullet jumping onto platforms and these are bugs that have been known for months now. 
An in house QA team is exactly what DE needs. They aren't paying us and these stupid bugs cause frustration for what is supposed to be a customer, not free labor.

I was mostly commenting on you saying they need to test lvl 300 content, but w/e.

You don't really think that a studio of DE's size doesn't have a QA team right?  They've posted job openings for QA positions plenty of time over the years.  There is no way to ever hire enough staff to quash every bug with the rate they have to add content to support a game like this.  Chances are if you've run into a bug in a game it has been logged before you ever saw it and there are other higher priority tasks.  No matter how many QA people there are, the various positions that will have to be allocated to fix it are a more limited resource, especially in a game that has been adding content for 7 years straight.

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fJnigem.png

I feel stupid...and betrayed.

Long story short: Got Kuva drakgoon, mastered it, crafted zarr with the fully polarized vanilla one, only to find out the riven is better on the original.

Aight, gimme the dunce cap and put me in the corner.

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On 2019-11-17 at 1:59 AM, Graavarg said:

I think this is a horrible idea, because of the complexity involved. You can have the same riven on several weapons but the stats surprisingly change on different weapons, according to two internal number most players never see (the riven's internal roll stats vs the weapon-specific disposition number).

And the disposition number then potentially changes every few months (if the usage changes), making riven-adapted weapon builds moot (achieving 100% status or crit, or other decimal-dependent numbers).

First of all there is absolutely no need to have disposition set with 2 decimals, so just use 1 (decimal). That would make the system a little bit more stable (going from 0.5 up to 1.5 in steps of 0.1). This is actually the same as a 100% scale, starting from a base 50% increase and going up to 150%. 

If you really want weapon-specific disposition, please apply a fixed bonus-difference between "top" versions (prime, kuva, vandal etc.) and "basic" versions, which is the same for ALL weapons. Like 0.2 (or 20%), or 0.3 (30%). So if the top-basic difference was set to 0.3 a riven for "Ogris" would have 1.4 (as an example) and a "Kuva Ogris" would have 1.1 (1.4 - 0.3 = 1.1).

This would be a system we could manage (it would be like the mods). If you need to buff or nerf some weapons to fit them in, just do it.

But making rivens into an even more complex calculation-based system that very few will ever understand and where nothing is connected to anything and nothing is stable... not a good idea.

And on a different note: there are a lot of different weapons that deserve to shine, and they potentially could with a system that specifically buffs them. But the player base generally doesn't appreciate the nuanced differences between weapons, and few are willing to buy weapon slots to even be able to have them ("all weapons"). If you really want more weapons used the way to go is a bigger differentiation in damage types (which means not allowing for status mods making all weapons more or less the same and damage-wise overriding the inherent damage types). Not just equalizing "total damage" or dps for all weapons.

And finally, with disposition weapon-based and not family-based those players who really use riven-based weapon-builds will now want/need different rivens for the different weapons inside the same family, so hopefully you are thinking about doubling or "unlimiting" the number of riven slots. Otherwise the change might actually lead to even less weapon used.

Having a more powerful version of a weapon but then having the riven automatically ''nerfed'' for the enhanced version wont necessary make that weapon better.

Example with stupid mat:

Ogris has base power 1 and the riven gives him 2 extra power, for a total power of 3

Kuva ogris has base power 2 and the same riven (which is nerfed for the kuva version) will give him 1, for a total power of 3

Whats the point of making a better version of a weapon if with a riven both weapons will perform similarly?

Its almost better playing without riven at this point, as its the only way to see the difference in damage between the 2 weapons, but lets face it, these dem kuva weapon are meant for veterans and hard grinders and these players all use rivens.

 

Also not to mention Ogris is not very used, and its not an endgame weapon, its not crit based, and its potential its limited, so nerfing the riven for it will not make this weapon likable, instead its prolly gonna be less used than before.

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On 2019-11-20 at 12:55 PM, Spugelius said:

fJnigem.png

I feel stupid...and betrayed.

Long story short: Got Kuva drakgoon, mastered it, crafted zarr with the fully polarized vanilla one, only to find out the riven is better on the original.

Aight, gimme the dunce cap and put me in the corner.

Yep, thats exactly what i was saying in my post, DE doesnt play their game enough so they dont know what they are doing.

Example:

Ogris has base power 1 and the riven gives him 2 extra power, for a total power of 3

Kuva ogris has base power 2 and the same riven (which is nerfed for the kuva version) will give him 1, for a total power of 3

Whats the point of making a better version of a weapon if with a riven both weapons will perform similarly?

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On 2019-11-07 at 11:14 AM, [DE]Connor said:

This has exciting implications for the future of Riven disposition changes!

Exciting... right... Nah, what's gonna happen is you'll tune the scores down for the Prime/Wraith/Kuva/Vandal variants depending on their stats (both weapon and usage) compared to base, and people will stop using the variants in favor of the better turnover using the originals.

I'll give you credit for trying, but I don't see much good coming from this in the long run. Guess we'll see,though, huh?

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Ill be honest here. Your heart is in the right place (balance), but you are not thinking clearly when it comes to the overall balance.

You want to break the meta, i get that, but with how you've built this game all you are going to do is make a new meta, and everything will get nerfed until its useless. Thats not balance, but breaking your own game.

People will like what is fun for them, and 9 out of 10 times that makes a meta. If you can't explain it, you can't predict it. Then something somewhere else is broken and needs looked into.

With how you've made this game, there will always be a meta. Yes, there will be some players that will find a way to break it, but in the end it will always come back to that.

I personally believe its in the numerous damage types that you offer, that causes the meta builds. Yes that lends to challenges when figuring out what you need, but it creates the original meta. Grineer/corrosive-heat/slash-viral, Corpus/gas-magnetic/electric-radiation, Infested/gas-radation/slash,

Follow this meta let's you do the most damage quickly, especial with how (in my opinion) broken enemy scaling is.

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I find the trend we're starting to see here disturbing.  DE may have started out trying to just balance, but the Catchmoon has shown that is no longer the intention.  Now the intention is to break the meta. 

The problem with this is that if you break one meta, it just creates another.  Gamers are always going to try and find the best thing, the best weapons, warframes, mod setups, etc.  That will by the nature of how things work just create another meta.  Another weapon, mod setup, warframe will become the new meta and the cycle will begin again.  I really don't want to see this situation lead to heavy handed nerf after heavy handed nerf but that could easily happen because that's what they had to do to shift people away from the Catchmoon.  Sour the milk so much that now I never see anyone use it. 

Ruining things is not a good way to move forward. Especially with Pablo mentioning potentially nerfing Saryn.  Given, she is powerful, but with the current mentality of nerfing things to oblivion to shift the meta I could see her being made effectively useless in the interest of again, shifting the meta.  And then after that, will the cycle turn to WuKong? Inaros? will the Tombfinger get smashed to death with the Nerfhammer? Rattleguts? Is anything popular a safe bet to invest forma and resources in anymore? 

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Please don't hurt my Gunsen.  I don't see anyone using it but me anyways.  😉

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and 90% of primes are slightly batter than normal counterparts. yet now normal will be batter, so to say, than primes. why have prime In first place? why not fine tune kuva weapons and balance things a bit. karak was not popular until kuva version, brakk also. you could buy their rivens for 10-20p. more insane than this is that we need to invest 5 forma per weapon just for mr fodder and now you get "nerfed". DE need to refund us with invested forma. just 2 forma per weapon would do the job for mr fodder. 

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On 2019-11-07 at 11:45 AM, kpa732 said:

This will be an interesting change. I expect to see a lot of meta shift, and *hopefully* a softening of the riven market as a whole.

 

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Actually now that i think about it this might in the long run make rivens actually do what they INTENDED from the get go. use on lower end weapons to bring them up while higher end versions might not even WANT them at all and will perform just as well. Honestly this has me pretty interested.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

Actually now that i think about it this might in the long run make rivens actually do what they INTENDED from the get go. use on lower end weapons to bring them up while higher end versions might not even WANT them at all and will perform just as well. Honestly this has me pretty interested.

Interested in what, exactly? If the base weapon performs better than the prime, there's zero point in owning a prime; nevermind having a prisma/vandal/wraith as a sidegrade to just straight better but oh wait we need to have four gorgon riven types. Oh by the way you get 120 slots to cover what will now be about 500 rivens.

No comment.

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1 hour ago, -Kittens- said:

four gorgon riven types.

Um... no.
If you have a Gorgon riven, it's compatible with ALL Gorgon variants. The same with almost every weapon in Warframe, if a weapon has variants, the riven will work for them as well.
Exceptions to this are... Mutalist Quanta, Mutalist Cernos, Dakra Prime, Dex Dakra, dual/single sidearms (ex: Can't use a Lex riven on an AkLex), Nikana/Prime and the Dragon Nikana.

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2 hours ago, NinjaKitsune56 said:

Um... no.
If you have a Gorgon riven, it's compatible with ALL Gorgon variants. The same with almost every weapon in Warframe, if a weapon has variants, the riven will work for them as well.
Exceptions to this are... Mutalist Quanta, Mutalist Cernos, Dakra Prime, Dex Dakra, dual/single sidearms (ex: Can't use a Lex riven on an AkLex), Nikana/Prime and the Dragon Nikana.

RIF-logo-resized.gif

 

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