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kwlingo

How Can We Fix Nukers?

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Line of sight/ objects interference creates damage decay aka walls or going through multi enemies aka Amprex coding. Why has Nuker and AI fix become suck a large topic? Close range line of sight can by pass decay 3-5m but anything else should start to fall off the further away they are.

Oh Sedna, Hydron if a nukers is in the group everyone leaves after first 5 waves. lol This is a real problem we all know is real. 90% kills and everyone goes to eat lunch and come back with mission accomplished. lol I still remember before nuking going into level 20-50 def was a thing of fun, now lucky if you can be in a public going pass 5???

Edited by kwlingo
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As far as I know, most "nuking" frames now do require line of sight. But it exists because that's what makes the grind easier to deal with for a lot of people.

Being able to turn on embers old 4 and just run through a mission as everything died was nice every now and then. Removing all forms of nuking would greatly demotivate me to play sometimes, and I barely even do it now days.

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I think the easiest fix is for people to stop treating it like a problem. I don’t generally use Nuke frames, when I do it is because I have to farm some long and tedious mission for very little reward.

 

I do not think adding damage decay scaling with range is a good choice. Given the number of enemies that can be hit at once this could impact performance. Consider Saryn, the spores spread and deal reasonable damage. How would your idea work when the enemies are moving, and you have to run 20+ calculations? Each tick could be different, and where would your origin point be?

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I got a solution, put harder missions in. Once you get around 100+ enemies, you can't one shot nuke anymore. Which is the problem people complain about. They are annoyed the enemy dies because they can kill it. Well when you put players with large amount of invested time into a game, they are going to pimp out their mods. Forcing those players back into low level content via Nightwave / New drops / ect. yeah you are going to piss people off. 

The new Lich mission are nice that they start at higher level but more options are still needed. 90-100+ missions should be an option for every node. Make only B and C rotation loot drop for the added difficulty. There is plenty of other options players have ask for.

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Warframe is a horde shooter as in we are meant to be killing large groups of enemies so Nukers are kinda...important to the gameplay. That being said, Line of Sight is a thing I noticed with Ember, specifically her 3, that fire pulse doesn't work if the enemy is behind certain terrain which was weird cause her 4 still targets them.

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The problem is:

In a co-op game with 4 player why after 40minute of gameplay 1 player should have 90% of kills , is it ok in squad maybe when u have a buffer an ev ( Trinity should loose that role too easy to give Mana with her in front of other warframes) and a cc  , but what about pubs where in Eso for example u see all running saryn cause u know in a shooter game killing is fun ? 

That said the new ember nuke is good , I don't care if a Mesa or ember kill everything cause that's his her spot and she kinda have an interaction with the enemies , but when a saryn high range show up that she can kill enemies 3-4 room ahead it's super frustrating .

Edited by CephalonSolo
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19 minutes ago, krc473 said:

I think the easiest fix is for people to stop treating it like a problem. I don’t generally use Nuke frames, when I do it is because I have to farm some long and tedious mission for very little reward.

 

I do not think adding damage decay scaling with range is a good choice. Given the number of enemies that can be hit at once this could impact performance. Consider Saryn, the spores spread and deal reasonable damage. How would your idea work when the enemies are moving, and you have to run 20+ calculations? Each tick could be different, and where would your origin point be?

But it is a problem, especially in a co-operative game, having power elements that can completely remove involvement of play from your teammates with ease is not a good design practice. When you see people afk'ing because they can't contribute or it wouldn't matter if they, or players just forced to go solo because they can't play otherwise, or just have people begrudgingly badgering others because the power scale is so off key they feel left out, for a co-op oriented game, that's a problem. I myself don't enjoy playing in groups nearly ever these days anymore because the growing problem of nukes has made playing with others all but a uninteractive mess where one person dominates the field more often than not while the rest just tag along to observe or waddle along behind, and may that's just the cost of me being a veterans and doing stuff other veterans do but it's just not a flattering experience and has made me grow less fond of this game since I enjoyed playing with others. 

Realistically the most apt solution to the problem is just bringing down nukes range, after all the primary problem with them is that they can cover full rooms near entirely and empty them giving non nuke players really no opportunity to react and engage in play themselves (unless of course they are another nuke in which it then becomes a competition of who gets in first) which is the whole conflict so far as just general team design goes. It'd also likely help on end of just balance problems as well, but that's a separate conversation of its own, what nukes do to the games balance as far as enemy difficulty goes. 

Edited by Cubewano
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2 minutes ago, CephalonSolo said:

In a co-op game with 4 player why after 40minute of gameplay 1 player should have 90% of kills

1 word. Leechers.

2 minutes ago, CephalonSolo said:

but what about pubs where in Eso for example u see all running saryn cause u know in a shooter game killing is fun ? 

because people are done with expecting others to carry their own weight to form a balanced group. Solution? F em and expect in the end to carry everyone else. It's a fail safe not a nuker issue with this one. I expect all pugs to be a sh|t show and might end up reporting the guy still at the spawn will 0% down the board.

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The nuking problem really stems from the issue that the game is built as a coop game but both isn't designed for it and only encourages it via force; like how Trials required four people to run them.

Go into a pub as Nyx and end up with a random Saryn and chances are you'll rarely see enemies, let alone have a change to kill any. Some people don't see this as a problem but others do when they have to play solo or pick these nuke frames in order to fight enemies otherwise.

 

As far as how to fix it the LOS changes have assisted in that but have yet to be applied to every frame and some would have little impact from it (Saryn and Octavia primarily). But have also been a bit of a detriment as well when more cluttered environments cause abilities to miss enemies because of some janky collisions.

I think the solution would be for enemies/mechanics put in to, somehow, not encourage killing enemies outright or somehow incentivize utility (cc) again. Mechanics that others have suggested like cooldowns or an ESO style spam prevention likely wouldn't help but so much and would also negatively impact frames/abilities that are already underused.

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1 minute ago, Zelmen said:

Leechers

Then u should play with my saryn sometimes , and try to find any enemies around the map , or even volt ... Then I will call you leecher and u will see what frustrating gameplay means 

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27 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

But it is a problem, especially in a co-operative game, having power elements that can completely remove involvement of play from your teammates with ease is not a good design practice.

I see it more as a symptom. We are forced to use these in order to farm optimally. DE forces people to do all levels of content to get stuff (e.g. relics). Now, as someone that is not a new player, having to farm missions with below level 20 enemies is never going to be a challenge. So I use a Nuke frame to speed it up. There are so many cases where the game is just so incredibly easy, but it will still take ages if not for Nuke frames. This will also never feel engaging - imagine doing an Excavation Defence on Earth for 30 mins with just Valkyr (or other non-Nuke), a Bow and a melee weapon (replace with any three single-target weapons).

 

We need Nuke frames because of the way the game is setup. If DE can find a solution to that then maybe people would use them less.

Edited by krc473
I confused mission names
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28 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

Line of sight/ objects interference creates damage decay aka walls or going through multi enemies aka Amprex coding. Why has Nuker and AI fix become suck a large topic? Close range line of sight can by pass decay 3-5m but anything else should start to fall off the further away they are.

Oh Sedna, Hydron if a nukers is in the group everyone leaves after first 5 waves. lol This is a real problem we all know is real. 90% kills and everyone goes to eat lunch and come back with mission accomplished. lol I still remember before nuking going into level 20-50 def was a thing of fun, now lucky if you can be in a public going pass 5???

Speak for yourself there, dude. I don't play any nukers myself but am happy to see them in my missions. If it's a defense I am usually speed Nova so am counting on having a nuker in the squad. 

At this point who cares if they have all the skills? My e-peen is still intact.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)death404 said:

Speak for yourself there, dude. I don't play any nukers myself but am happy to see them in my missions. If it's a defense I am usually speed Nova so am counting on having a nuker in the squad. 

At this point who cares if they have all the skills? My e-peen is still intact.

I do enjoy it thats why I want my old Ember back. lol stand in middle and go to round 100 in def.

Edited by kwlingo
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1 minute ago, trst said:

The nuking problem really stems from the issue that the game is built as a coop game but both isn't designed for it and only encourages it via force; like how Trials required four people to run them.

Go into a pub as Nyx and end up with a random Saryn and chances are you'll rarely see enemies, let alone have a change to kill any. Some people don't see this as a problem but others do when they have to play solo or pick these nuke frames in order to fight enemies otherwise.

 

As far as how to fix it the LOS changes have assisted in that but have yet to be applied to every frame and some would have little impact from it (Saryn and Octavia primarily). But have also been a bit of a detriment as well when more cluttered environments cause abilities to miss enemies because of some janky collisions.

I think the solution would be for enemies/mechanics put in to, somehow, not encourage killing enemies outright or somehow incentivize utility (cc) again. Mechanics that others have suggested like cooldowns or an ESO style spam prevention likely wouldn't help but so much and would also negatively impact frames/abilities that are already underused.

How can u do that when cc was King there was not many tanky warframes and people were just not able to play saryn ( and that's the reality) power strght was not that high and range was only stretch or overextended for who was very lucky ... If u want the cc to be King again u should Nerf every Warframe back to square 1 and that's not possible , but maybe making every ability work only on sight or they lose powerwouldn't be such a bad idea , good skill player that are able to position well will be able to nuke rooms still , but at least other people will be able to do something either , the fps and total weight of Warframe in computerwill reduce either , the only problem would be to rework saryn first again cause it that case she will lose always too many spores dmg 

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3 minutes ago, krc473 said:

imagine doing an Excavation on Earth for 30 mins with just Valkyr (or other non-Nuke), a Bow and a melee weapon (replace with any three single-target weapons).

I run nekros and solo them all the time. So don't see your issue here. Excavation is time based not kill count. You bring nuke because you want to kill everything before anything can bother you. Your example is poor but the point is correct: they aren't engaging. Which back to the whole point, is not an issue with nuke frames. Nuke frames should be fore mass blanket damage not one button delete.

 

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Why do people say nukers when they mean saryn? Also line of sight would break some nuking ablities like thermal sunder and the detonation from gara's mass vitrify. If the problem is saryn's spores traveling all over the map and killing everyone before anyone gets a shot at them let's talk about that rather than lumping all nukers in together and saying they've all got to use identical limiting mechanics regardless of there particulars.

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13 minutes ago, Zelmen said:

1 word. Leechers.


Oh for Pete's sake..
"Leechers."

You know, the stuff that makes you good in this game is based on chance to drop..
You have to level things several times over...

The odds are at any time that Anyone doesn't have a perfect kit.
Performance in this game has little to do with skill, and much to do with RNG.
So if someone is underperforming, That is To Be Expected.

If this were like an Overwatch kinda game, where everyone was handed the same complete kit,
and gameplay performance was based more on skill than random luck and just being around
at the right time... then yeah, I'd get your point.
But it's not, so I Absolutely cannot whatsoever sympathize with that state of mine.

If it disgusts players to possibly be in public with people who haven't gotten everything together,
that sounds like a solo play only, to me.

There are so many more instances where a player may be unable to perform because that is
how the game is designed to it's core, than an intentional slight to others.
YEEESH.
 

Edited by kapn655321
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6 minutes ago, Troposphere6 said:

Why do people say nukers when they mean saryn? Also line of sight would break some nuking ablities like thermal sunder and the detonation from gara's mass vitrify. If the problem is saryn's spores traveling all over the map and killing everyone before anyone gets a shot at them let's talk about that rather than lumping all nukers in together and saying they've all got to use identical limiting mechanics regardless of there particulars.

Volt, Mesa, Ocavita, and Equinox. At least Equinox is a build to release instead of just plain out out high damage. But still line of sight or give me back melee with 20 meters through walls. When melee was better then guns. lol

Edited by kwlingo

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8 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:


Oh for Pete's sake..
"Leechers."

You know, the stuff that makes you good in this game is based on chance to drop..
You have to level things several times over...

The odds are at any time that Anyone doesn't have a perfect kit.
Performance in this game has little to do with skill, and much to do with RNG.
So if someone is underperforming, That is To Be Expected.

If this were like an Overwatch kinda game, where everyone was handed the same complete kit,
and gameplay performance was based more on skill than random luck and just being around
at the right time... then yeah, I'd get your point.
But it's not, so I Absolutely cannot whatsoever sympathize with that state of mine.

If it disgusts players to possibly be in public with people who haven't gotten everything together,
that sounds like a solo play only, to me.

There are so many more instances where a player may be unable to perform because that is
how the game is designed to it's core, than an intentional slight to others.
YEEESH.
 

He asked why someone would still be at 90% outside of a support frame. This is the truth. After ~40 min nukers are no longer gods and the single target frame pick up pace. At ~40 in (which lets face it, is a farming group) no one should be at 90%. The other have zoned out or just afk. This makes them leechers. 

Just to clarify. Leeching is a complete negative term for someone who does nothing to participate and is rewarded everything for no effort. I only spell this out because I do not consider under geared player trying to participate as leechers. Those people are just being carried through the mission. There is nothing wrong with being carried and even the best / gear players get carried from time to time.

Edited by Zelmen
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What is wrong with you people? "Frame X can do something my favorite frame can't do so it needs to be nerfed" is utter bovine excrement. If you want to do what Frame X can do, play Frame X, that is how you "fix nukers". If you don't want to group with Frame X because they hurt your ego by getting more kills then don't play with them, just abort a mission if you get in one with them. I do it all the time if I end up in a group with a bad Limbo. No one cares about kill count anyway. Has anyone ever, even ONE time, criticized you for having a low kill count, especially if there was a Saryn, Octavia, Mirage, or Mesa in the group? My guess is that it has NEVER happened and never will. FWIW I routinely out damage and/or out kill most frames/players with WISP (my primary frame) while only using her #1 ability. So I guess next you will be asking how to "fix" Wisp. Get over it already

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6 minutes ago, CephalonSolo said:

How can u do that when cc was King there was not many tanky warframes and people were just not able to play saryn ( and that's the reality) power strght was not that high and range was only stretch or overextended for who was very lucky ... If u want the cc to be King again u should Nerf every Warframe back to square 1 and that's not possible , but maybe making every ability work only on sight or they lose powerwouldn't be such a bad idea , good skill player that are able to position well will be able to nuke rooms still , but at least other people will be able to do something either , the fps and total weight of Warframe in computerwill reduce either , the only problem would be to rework saryn first again cause it that case she will lose always too many spores dmg 

Actually pre-rwork Saryn was more of an outright nuke frame than she is right now when Miasma did far more damage due to a negative duration bug.

But yes, nerfing and rebalancing frames and weapon damage could make way for CC to have a purpose again but we're talking about an overhaul of most of the game and fixing years of powercreep and poor design. Instead someone making new mechanics that encourage other abilities being used other than outright damage could create the niche non-nuke frames need, like how Ancient Healers are a pain when you can't overkill enemies but a fame like Nyx can remove their auras instantly and keep them off.

But certainly outliers like Saryn and Octavia would need more direct changes either way. That is assuming DE is ever going to address the issue or deal with it by just adding stronger enemies.

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13 minutes ago, krc473 said:

I see it more as a symptom. We are forced to use these in order to farm optimally. DE forces people to do all levels of content to get stuff (e.g. relics). Now, as someone that is not a new player, having to farm missions with below level 20 enemies is never going to be a challenge. So I use a Nuke frame to speed it up. There are so many cases where the game is just so incredibly easy, but it will still take ages if not for Nuke frames. This will also never feel engaging - imagine doing an Excavation on Earth for 30 mins with just Valkyr (or other non-Nuke), a Bow and a melee weapon (replace with any three single-target weapons).

 

We need Nuke frames because of the way the game is setup. If DE can find a solution to that then maybe people would use them less.

What if fixing nukes will come with a easier rng ? Instead of dancing whyle another guy press a button .. and u call that farming , what if u put efforts and get rewarded in the end , incredible but that is a gameplay , this 1 we have is not a co-op game and people are just lazy 

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Remove mana add Cooldown based abilities.... I’ve said it before, but no one wants this. 

I would think after Grendel missions people would see how being able to use abilities based on drop RNG is a little lame.

To each his own.

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