krc473 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, Zelmen said: I run nekros and solo them all the time. So don't see your issue here. Excavation is time based not kill count. I meant to put Defence, but I got distracted as I was running Excavation. I agree, Excavation is not a good example. I changed it in the post. 10 minutes ago, Zelmen said: Nuke frames should be fore mass blanket damage not one button delete. Personally, I would be happy with more abilities like Saryn's Spores and less like Miasma [not exactly the same obviously]. Having an ability stack passively stack damage on enemies if far better for me than spamming abilities to achieve the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubewano Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 minute ago, krc473 said: I see it more as a symptom. We are forced to use these in order to farm optimally. DE forces people to do all levels of content to get stuff (e.g. relics). Now, as someone that is not a new player, having to farm missions with below level 20 enemies is never going to be a challenge. So I use a Nuke frame to speed it up. There are so many cases where the game is just so incredibly easy, but it will still take ages if not for Nuke frames. This will also never feel engaging - imagine doing an Excavation on Earth for 30 mins with just Valkyr (or other non-Nuke), a Bow and a melee weapon (replace with any three single-target weapons). We need Nuke frames because of the way the game is setup. If DE can find a solution to that then maybe people would use them less. Forced how? No content in this game requires emptying maps in an instant to do even moderately well, outside maybe ESO (a mode designed directly around nukes), and those aspects could be rebalanced worse comes to worse. What farms we do have typically don't revolve around maximizing kills so nukes aren't essential that way, and those that do are typically aimed at loot harvesting from foes which lends to loot frames being more optimal than nukes as you stack their double dipping. Defense maybe is a mission type that really pushes the value of nukes to be optimal but that's a single game mode, and I'm not sure what defenses are even farmed these days since the mission over all is just viewed as not optimal regardless. So where are they really optimal or necessary? With or without them we can stomp most enemies with ease, and with CC we'd have a strong protective barrier in their absence if it came to that, which would of course give value to a playstyle category that more or less has lost all value because of nukes. I honestly don't think nukes are as essential as some may believe them to be. They're easy and safe at the best, but wholly nonessential. You mention doing 30 min excavation with a Valkyr as an example of why nukes are important, but like, if I wanted anyone on a excavator as an optimal pick it'd be a Frost over even a nuke since the goal to move forward rewards is to defend more than just a wholesale killfest, and if we had a Frost it wouldn't matter what other people are on my team so long as they're going to work because really anyone can kill enemies well enough to keep the mission going if geared adequately. The only difference between that and having a nuke is how many of the people there are afk or not because they don't have enough to do along with em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwlingo Posted November 7, 2019 Author Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Cubewano said: No content in this game requires emptying maps in an instant to do even moderately well, outside maybe ESO (a mode designed directly around nukes), and those aspects could be rebalanced worse comes to worse. I agree If so we just need the old Ember back and more like old Embers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Currilicious Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 I don't know man. Having someone kill all the stuff and fill my affinity bar while I do some work (or fell asleep) don't look like a bad deal to me. So, I guess I'm a part-time (or accidental) leecher lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troposphere6 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, kwlingo said: Volt, Mesa, Ocavita, and Equinox. At least Equinox is a build to release instead of just plain out out high damage. But still line of sight or give me back melee with 20 meters through walls. When melee was better then guns. lol Mesa already requires line of sight. Octavia requires enemies to be inside a certain area which can move around sure but they still have to be in a specified place. Volt can be annoying with his daisy chaining electricity but rarely out right kills everyone. Equinox as you said has to charge her damage up first which limits mend & maim. Line of sight wouldn't fix any of the frames you mentioned especially because in endless missions where they tend to be problematic there is often a large amount of unrestricted space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwlingo Posted November 7, 2019 Author Share Posted November 7, 2019 Just now, Currilicious said: I don't know man. Having someone kill all the stuff and fill my affinity bar while I do some work (or fell asleep) don't look like a bad deal to me. So, I guess I'm a part-time (or accidental) leecher lol. Now that i think about it. I should have dont this also. I waisted so much time try to get kill when I could have caught up on my homework for class. lol We do need Old Ember back lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krc473 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, BDMblue said: Remove mana add Cooldown based abilities.... I’ve said it before, but no one wants this. I believe DE has said no to this. It was discussed in a previous stream (no idea which) and they were against the idea. 4 minutes ago, CephalonSolo said: What if fixing nukes will come with a easier rng ? Instead of dancing whyle another guy press a button .. and u call that farming , what if u put efforts and get rewarded in the end , incredible but that is a gameplay , this 1 we have is not a co-op game and people are just lazy But fixing Nukers is unlikely to make RNG less problematic. DE relies on RNG to encourage people to buy stuff. Why would they make it easier to acquire items? You do have to consider that this is a game, and it is meant to be enjoyable. Who really enjoys farming non-engaging content for stuff they need when getting mainly stuff they don't? Many missions we have to do are quite boring, yet we are forced to do them if we want the drops. A Nuke frame makes it more tolerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(NSW)Quarky Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 *curtains open* *The setting is Hydron, Sedna. The actors are Saryn and her floosies* Saryn: Hey guys! Who's ready to affinity farm! Alright! Floosies: Wooohooo! *floosies go off and start killing things* Saryn: GAAAAIIIZZZZ. DO YOU NOT KNOW HOW AFFINITY DISTRIBUTION WORKS??!! Floosies: Distribution? How do you spell that? You get affinity by killing things right? Saryn: *facepalm* ----- Story of my life on Hydron. The problem isn't nukers, the problem is that people don't want to leech. Gawd. Plz just stand on the defense point while I kill everything for you kthnx. I'm here for focus and you're here to get carried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No1NParticular31 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, (NSW)Quarky said: *curtains open* *The setting is Hydron, Sedna. The actors are Saryn and her floosies* Saryn: Hey guys! Who's ready to affinity farm! Alright! Floosies: Wooohooo! *floosies go off and start killing things* Saryn: GAAAAIIIZZZZ. DO YOU NOT KNOW HOW AFFINITY DISTRIBUTION WORKS??!! Floosies: Distribution? How do you spell that? You get affinity by killing things right? Saryn: *facepalm* ----- Story of my life on Hydron. The problem isn't nukers, the problem is that people don't want to leech. Gawd. Plz just stand on the defense point while I kill everything for you kthnx. I'm here for focus and you're here to get carried. It wouldn't be so funny if it wasn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloudyvisage Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 I found that the halloween game mode was a very simple way to fix nukes and was very entertaining as well, if DE made that mode a more commonplace thing for infested enemies I would love that, it forced your teammates to actually work together but not in a stepping on each others toes kind of way and also made too much range meaningless or, in some cases, bad. As an example, I played volt the first few times and rapidly realized that I shouldn't use his 4 at all given I had either my 250% or 280% range build on. This would slow the enemies getting to us which was bad. Having small scale nukes was still strong but the enemies were always right behind that so even if an equinox nuked the entire space there were still large amounts of enemies back inside the circle to kill within moments for everyone else. In fact, the only thing I didn't particularly like was the speed with which the lantern dropped power, it kinda necessitated a speedva, something I changed to and did the rest of the event as. Change that by a few seconds and I would gladly have that be a major game mode. It would be a mode where nukers are on a pretty even keel with everyone else. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwlingo Posted November 7, 2019 Author Share Posted November 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, (NSW)Quarky said: Story of my life on Hydron. The problem isn't nukers, the problem is that people don't want to leech. Gawd. Plz just stand on the defense point while I kill everything for you kthnx. I'm here for focus and you're here to get carried. But Saryn users leave after 5 rounds also. Even when I use her. lol ESO is better for focus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDMblue Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 minute ago, krc473 said: I believe DE has said no to this. It was discussed in a previous stream (no idea which) and they were against the idea. Ya I think they did. It’s a lot of work for the game, but the possibility’s it opens. Mana to me is an old mechanic that was used to balance mages stronger abilities to an archers. In every game it only holds the players back for the vary start then the whole system is bypassed. i have no idea why games even today still use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No1NParticular31 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, krc473 said: Many missions we have to do are quite boring, yet we are forced to do them if we want the drops. A Nuke frame makes it more tolerable. I have a fully built out Saryn Prime and can solo ESO with her (unless I get unlucky and get an infested map where every 3rd mob is an energy drainer), but I really don't do that very often. Outside of that I really don't use Saryn. I do use Octavia a lot for Defense, and Mobile Defense, I just dig her vibe. From a pure physics point of view sound DOES travel through wall and around corners, etc so adding LOS to her would be stupid. Not to mention her range is already sort of limited. Other than those two, I never use any other "nuke frame". If I am in a group with one and they kill more mobs than me, so be it. I don't want to see them nerfed b/c of it. I know you are not one advocating for nerfs, but I wanted to add my reasons to yours for not wanting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwlingo Posted November 7, 2019 Author Share Posted November 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, BDMblue said: Ya I think they did. It’s a lot of work for the game, but the possibility’s it opens. Mana to me is an old mechanic that was used to balance mages stronger abilities to an archers. In every game it only holds the players back for the vary start then the whole system is bypassed. i have no idea why games even today still use it. Yes to be able to nuke is okay to a point. But the ability to set macros to keep repeating spamming nuke abilities mean sit back till end of mission is done. Its the same concept of spin to win melee reworked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 whats to fix i wonder they seem to work great for their intended role given most frames with specific setup, loadout can be nukers i find this funny 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagernator22663 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) Step one: You stop crying like a little baby about it. Edited November 7, 2019 by Swagernator22663 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No1NParticular31 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, kwlingo said: Yes to be able to nuke is okay to a point. But the ability to set macros to keep repeating spamming nuke abilities mean sit back till end of mission is done. Its the same concept of spin to win melee reworked. If someone is using macros to play the game for them while "sitting back doing nothing" then report them. It's a banable offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KosmicKerman Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, kwlingo said: Line of sight/ objects interference creates damage decay aka walls or going through multi enemies aka Amprex coding. Why has Nuker and AI fix become suck a large topic? Close range line of sight can by pass decay 3-5m but anything else should start to fall off the further away they are. Oh Sedna, Hydron if a nukers is in the group everyone leaves after first 5 waves. lol This is a real problem we all know is real. 90% kills and everyone goes to eat lunch and come back with mission accomplished. lol I still remember before nuking going into level 20-50 def was a thing of fun, now lucky if you can be in a public going pass 5??? What are you talking about? If I am on Hydron I’m there to level stuff. Of course I want a Saryn, Volt, or Equinox there to ease the pain of leveling MR fodder. I wouldn’t leave until my gear was leveled. I’d also add that I play Saryn when: I don’t want to have to worry about squad mates not using corrosive projection on augmented armor sorties or more generally when I don’t want to worry about my squad mates being woefully under equipped for missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(NSW)Quarky Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 57 minutes ago, kwlingo said: But Saryn users leave after 5 rounds also. Even when I use her. lol ESO is better for focus That seems like a "you" problem and not a nuker problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IIDMOII Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) Imagine that. They design frames who excel at casting abilities. And people use them as they were designed. Someone could just as easily join with an overpowered AOE weapon and have the same results. As some above mentioned, it's not a problem. The problem is the content isn't scaled high enough for powerful builds. So these people are joining the only content available. They don't need to be nerfed. They need content that can challenge them. Also, why would anyone torture themselves for so many waves? The loot is so terrible in this game, there's no incentive to play that long. 5 is about when I start wishing it was over. Tedium, repetition and lack of rewards and interesting loot are your enemy not nukers. If loot didn't suck in warframe, I don't think anyone would truly complain about getting a free carry. Edited November 7, 2019 by IIDMOII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thegarada Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 When I hear "nuker" problem, I am like: why do people keep insisting to balance the game around level 30 content?! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubewano Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said: When I hear "nuker" problem, I am like: why do people keep insisting to balance the game around level 30 content?! if you need a nuke to handle anything above level 30 you are doing something terribly wrong 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) If you don't want to leave the game after 1 round, don't play Hydron. In fact, just don't play Hydron. Edited November 7, 2019 by schilds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea_Blue_Stars Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 A lot of my problems are with Saryn in specific. She's pretty tanky, and the biggest problem nuker to boot. I find her ridiculous and annoying to play with at the very best. (And very boring to play myself.) Most I have played with have been in one spot, and deal all their damage from there. They don't move around a lot, just enough to cast a couple Spores and make sure they aren't booted. As it stands now, there's no solution that will really work. People are straight-up opposed to cooldowns, line-of-sight, and reworking things to fit better in a cooperative role. And just leaving them is bad for the game, especially in the long run. Eliminating gameplay for those around you is not okay. I really don't understand why that is such a topic of debate. No one likes to be dragged along and used to make more enemies spawn, as a lot of nukes tend to do. We all know spawn rates suck solo, and it might be cool to elimate 50+ enemies at once, but it's not cooperation or teamwork in a game with emphasis on teamwork and cooperation. People also tend to say that Nuke frames would he useless when reworked to remain good, but encourage team play. Things can still be useful without killing everything for everyone. That said, if you're nothing without it, then you shouldn't have it. At this point, I'm not sure what really can be done, honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Cartographer Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Nukes themselves aren't a problem, they're meant to be an "oh $#!%" button. But they become problem when energy is so abundant there's no reason to spam the actually intended spam abilities (normally #1,) so we just spam the warframe's "ultimate" instead. So the fix to this problem would be nixing most if almost all sources of energy except orb drops, but that would piss off a LOT of people, so DE has started exploring a clever concept - build up, aka, warframe specific resource. See: Ember's heat meter. Some of her abilities are weak when it's closer to 50%, but build it up and she can get a lot more mileage out of them. Not quite a cool down, but sort of acts as a soft cooldown. You could spam her #3 and #4, but they wouldn't be as strong if her heat meter were built up first. Otherwise, DE's been getting better about warframe design. Notably, the more recent frames don't really feature room wide abilities. And Ember's AoE's don't necessarily last very long, they're a quick burst that does something then it's back to the player needing to do something themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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