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RS219

Valence Transfer is worthless if all subsequent duplicates are of inferior quality

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Suppose you get a Kuva Chakkhurr that's 50% bonus damage. That's great, you just need to get a higher damage percentage to replace that bonus with.

Then you get other Chakkhurrs that rate 48%. 26%. 37%. 49%. All of them worthless to upgrade your 50% with.

There should be a way (Valence Addition or whatever it could be called), such that inferior quality duplicates can still strengthen the active weapon. Maybe each addition to permanently increase the bonus elemental percentage by 2%?

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I mean, DE's intention with Valence Transfer wasn't to make subsequent weapons useful, it was to make sure effort you spent on a weapon wasn't wasted. It being worthless if subsequent weapons are worse is not a fault of the design because it was not the intention of the design, Valence Transfer does what it is supposed to do.

DE can't "just" add a form of progression to Kuva weapons, that will take intentional design and conversations as to how it will be balanced. It is a separate issue to making sure your effort isn't wasted and could completly change the gameplay loop of Liches. There was nothing controversial about preserving a players effort so DE could move full speed ahead.

 

*That all said*, I think there should be some form of progression for Kuva weapons. How it should be done though is a bit more complicated, for example if you can infuse one weapon into another should you be able to change the element? Should the percent scale with the infused weapon? Maybe Kuva could be used as a intermediary resource.

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It should give a minimum +5% bonus. So, if u mix 2 weapons, at least wins a little bonus dmg (up to 60%, of course).

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Yep, garbage system is garbage. The only difference it makes is allowing you to farm the mastery up front without "wasting" forma invested in it. Your still stuck with generating new liches that you then have no real incentive to get rid of beyond grinding for hours just so you can generate another one and hope for a better weapon roll. They fixed worries about wasting investment in a kuva weapon without addressing the more massive problem of how bad it feels to generate a new lich with a weapon that's completely useless to you and be staring down a 2.5-3 hour solo non cooperative murmur grind just to get rid of it.

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I think DE thought people would be happy to convert liches, but a number of people would rather take a weapon they have no use for.

I think DE need to clearly communicate where they're going with the Lich system. I know I'm assuming that I'll eventually be able to do something with converted Liches. Other people are collecting weapons because they assume they are going to be able to do something with them.

In other words, people are making choices now with certain expectations in mind based on incomplete information. Coupled with the grind and random aspect of liches, this is going to be a recipe for severe burnout when DE finally implements more (or it turns out that what we see is all we're getting).

Edited by schilds

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3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I mean, DE's intention with Valence Transfer wasn't to make subsequent weapons useful, it was to make sure effort you spent on a weapon wasn't wasted. It being worthless if subsequent weapons are worse is not a fault of the design because it was not the intention of the design, Valence Transfer does what it is supposed to do.

DE can't "just" add a form of progression to Kuva weapons, that will take intentional design and conversations as to how it will be balanced. It is a separate issue to making sure your effort isn't wasted and could completly change the gameplay loop of Liches. There was nothing controversial about preserving a players effort so DE could move full speed ahead.

 

*That all said*, I think there should be some form of progression for Kuva weapons. How it should be done though is a bit more complicated, for example if you can infuse one weapon into another should you be able to change the element? Should the percent scale with the infused weapon? Maybe Kuva could be used as a intermediary resource.

Its simply really:

  • If Kuva weapons will have no pathway of `trading`, which the most optimal would be letting clans able to disown their kuva liches and anyone in that clan can pick up the ones thrown into the pile. Since the X hour wait to build a key plus the lock if i recall if you leave a clan would prevent people freely using clans as a `lich market`, Well this is under the basis if D.E. never plans to let us trade liches pre-conversion or the weapons themselves. Then D.E. needs to vastly reduce the grind or greatly buff the rewards gained from it so its not just simply the lich weapon you can get (since a random mysterious stranger is GARBAGE in this game`s context, especially if the lich cant revive you or anything).
  • If D.E. actually caves into making a form of trading for the liches, then they just need to create as many locks in place to prevent abuse. Such as maybe a limit of once per day you can do it, once a lich is `traded/disowned`, it cant be traded again after someone else picks it up(meaning people have to think twice on picking up a lich).

Granted, since D.E. decided to allow us to merge the weapons to swap the bonus stats but keep the bench, they kind of screwed themselves, where they need to have some kind of form of skewing the odds where if you own a kuva weapon, the chances of getting a duplicate of it can be vastly reduced thru a toggle somehow, plus create a boon such as being able to melt a kuva weapon down for say, 7k-10k asterite, since the amount of effort taken to just get said kuva weapon. Is easily going to be worth 10 or even 20 kuva siphon mission runs.

Edited by Avienas

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1 hour ago, schilds said:

I think DE thought people would be happy to convert liches, but a number of people would rather take a weapon they have no use for.

I think DE need to clearly communicate where they're going with the Lich system. I know I'm assuming that I'll eventually be able to do something with converted Liches. Other people are collecting weapons because they assume they are going to be able to do something with them.

In other words, people are making choices now with certain expectations in mind based on incomplete information. Coupled with the grind and random aspect of liches, this is going to be a recipe for severe burnout when DE finally implements more (or it turns out that what we see is all we're getting).

Problem is converting is half baked too. They rarely show up, and when they do they don't even use abilities and bugger off after 2 minutes.

Edited by GSDAkatsuki

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30 minutes ago, GSDAkatsuki said:

Problem is converting is half baked too. They rarely show up, and when they do they don't even use abilities and bugger off after 2 minutes.

That's why people aren't converting, but whether you're converting or vanquishing, at some point you're doing so based on an expectation that more is going to be done with the system, and in some sense making a bet that it will be an extension of whatever choice you're making. I'm curious as to why people are betting on weapons.

We know the Lich system is unfinished, duplicate weapons in this game have never meant very much, and converted Liches are incredibly limited at the moment, so if I were to bet on anything it's that we'll be able to do something more with converted Liches.

Regardless, with the heavy grind and layers of rng involved, I think DE would be wise to communicate where they're going with this.

Edited by schilds

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Even if they did show up, I wouldn't convert them! Actually, it'd make it even less likely for me to do that because they'd cramp my style, or worse steal a kill. Seriously though, there is no reason to convert your Lich beyond curiosity of doing so.

 

But yea, I seem to just have been on the lucky side, 10 Liches and only 1 duplicate weapon. I don't really care that much for the bonus thing, priority is just getting the weapons first. However the bonus thing shakes out is just a matter of if I might use any of them or not after leveling. But given that a lot of people haven't had such a streak of luck as I have, I do think that the way the weapon is determined (or possibly changed after the spawn) should be looked into (my suggestion remains in having a cash-in option for Defiled Requiem Mods to do that, or alternatively cashing in a Converted Lich for that). Valence Transfer having some sort of overall increase to the bonus on any duplicate should also be considered, since getting 60% bonus is so unlikely.

Though personally I think getting rid of the random bonus % and just setting all Kuva weapons to 60% would be better, the random bonus doesn't add anything and it's more than likely simply a deciding factor between actually using the weapon after slapping those formas on it or just leaving it on the shelf.

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17 minutes ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Though personally I think getting rid of the random bonus % and just setting all Kuva weapons to 60% would be better, the random bonus doesn't add anything and it's more than likely simply a deciding factor between actually using the weapon after slapping those formas on it or just leaving it on the shelf.

This is how it should have been implemented from the very beginning.

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Agreed. Valance Transfer would still have a purpose too for switching the element, which would actually be a cool feature that sets Kuva weapons apart and gives them a level of adaptability.

Edited by vaarnaaarne

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I hadn't read the patch notes, but I assumed the bonus would be to plunk 2 together to combine their stats up, and cap at max.

Hearing this is not the case is kinda junk to put it plainly.

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9 hours ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Seriously though, there is no reason to convert your Lich beyond curiosity of doing so.

In fact, there are strong reasons to actively not convert them. I for one do not like my game hard-locking for several seconds in the middle of combat.

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I do believe some of the +element damage is converted from the IPS base damage when the weapon is generated.

Which means not all weapons want max elemental. Some like the Kuva Quartakk probably want something around 20-25%, for a better slash/viral build, or have far more Corrosive on a Corrosive/Fire build.

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13 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

It's fine as it is. You can just not take the inferior weapon, y'know? It's not that hard. Just read the screen. You'll figure it out.

That's cute. Yeah, I could either let it sit in my foundry for eternity OR sell it for a measly 7500 credits I could earn in any two missions. What great choices! 

Next you'll be saying that there's nothing wrong with being forced to waste hours farming murmurs and waste requiem mod charges to get rid of a lich with a confirmed useless weapon roll. What next from you, "how dare you propose to reduce the grind" et al? 

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5 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

I do believe some of the +element damage is converted from the IPS base damage when the weapon is generated.

Which means not all weapons want max elemental. Some like the Kuva Quartakk probably want something around 20-25%, for a better slash/viral build, or have far more Corrosive on a Corrosive/Fire build.

Nope. Sorry to say, you are wrong. The % bonuses are based on the IPS base damage and then added on top of it, similar to the damage boost from adding elemental mods. 

In fact, 4 of the weapons are so much weaker than their normal counterparts that you need high rolls just to break even. See list here:

 

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2 hours ago, RS219 said:

Nope. Sorry to say, you are wrong. The % bonuses are based on the IPS base damage and then added on top of it, similar to the damage boost from adding elemental mods. 

In fact, 4 of the weapons are so much weaker than their normal counterparts that you need high rolls just to break even. See list here:

 

I am, right now, staring at two different Kuva Karaks with slightly different IPS damage. It's subtle, but it's there, and there's no reason that should be the case if there isn't some hidden modifier. Now that I'm looking at the, the Karak with the lower IPS also has lower elemental damage, so I suppose it could be a random modifier on the IPS, which is actually even worse than expected, but still.

The problem is testing this properly requires a stockpile of the same weapon, so unless you've got 5 or so of a given weapon sitting around you have to start getting people screenshotting their weapons for you. You aren't testing this properly.

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11 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I am, right now, staring at two different Kuva Karaks with slightly different IPS damage. It's subtle, but it's there, and there's no reason that should be the case if there isn't some hidden modifier. Now that I'm looking at the, the Karak with the lower IPS also has lower elemental damage, so I suppose it could be a random modifier on the IPS, which is actually even worse than expected, but still.

The problem is testing this properly requires a stockpile of the same weapon, so unless you've got 5 or so of a given weapon sitting around you have to start getting people screenshotting their weapons for you. You aren't testing this properly.

I notice these RNG'd weapons have a habit of being advertised with "rounded-up" values, but on obtaining have slightly varied IPS than advertised. I don't think this is a good thing that even IPS can be subjected to RNG.

Anyways, we will look at my 29% fire Kuva Kohm.

3.9 + 3.9 + 11.6 + 5.6.

100% IPS is the first 3 values, making it 19.4 without factoring in the 5.6 fire.

5.6/19.4 = 28.86, rounded up makes the fire effectively +29% bonus damage.

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