[The Old Blood] New Riven Disposition on Kuva Weapons make some of them worse than the originals (Kuva Kohm, Kuva Ogris, etc...)

[SprinKah]

I've been extensively testing this, I got a few Kuva weapons that are "upgrade" counterparts of the originals. Kuva Kohm, Ogris, Tonkor.

These are the 3 Kuva weapons so far that I noticed...have got "improvements" that can make them...worse than their originals, and that fact is only enhanced with the new riven disposition system. 

Also I reckon that some other Kuva weapons will possibly suffer the same effect, like the Kraken, Karak or even Drakgoon. 

Here are some videos that I recorded, extensively tested the weapons, with and without rivens, results may surprise you:

Kuva KOHM:

Spoiler

It'd be cool if we get the 245+ capacity from the Kohm back, and perhaps damage as well, just the same with KOHM. Is this considered worse than the og Kohm? Not really but it is still disappointing. I couldn't make a build that couldn't go through a single mag on the Kuva Kohm compared to Kohm. Technically, less ammo used but reloading is mandatory so it doesn't matter.

and the 30% status chance can really make over-armor-stripping a big issue. 

Also, I wouldn't mind Kohm getting a riven dispo nerf from 5/5 to 3/5, It doesn't sit very well with me that when it comes to riven, Kohm can potentially prevail more than Kuva Kohm. 

 

KUVA OGRIS:

Spoiler

I think it needs a little more stats other than a change of mechanic to truly make this perform better

 

I don't wanna go too in-depth on my...train of thoughts on these weapons when I was testing them, I'm sure nobody wants that.

One thing I can say, I do understand why the people at DE would implement this new riven disposition system, it makes sense. But there are a lot of better variants of weapons that just won't have....better enough stats to make up for the riven disposition change, like the Kuva weapons I listed above.

I don't really see the point of getting another version of a weapon that isn't really gonna benefit further with a riven.

I'm not asking for any crazy buff,, but an improved version of a weapon should be an improvement, not a rollback.

I think DE should look at these weapons a little more in depth, either buff them more to compensate for the riven dispo or increase the riven disposition for some of them. 

 

While I am aware that some of these weapons MAY be able to perform better than their original counterpart, Rivens exist and many players will want to min-max, to reach the full potential, they will not be please that their full potential ends up being rather...mediocre or worse, "nothing too special" versions compared to the their OG counterparts. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by SprinKah

[___Operator___]

I've played around with Kuva Kohm myself and you will get a little but more damage out of it with a triple stat riven with no SC and then 3 dual stats (don't underestimate the heat changes)  but your point is still 100% valid and I agree. As for Kuva ogris? not acceptable as a reward even if its disposition was not lowered. Its a completely garbage weapon and seriously needs to be buffed in the crit chance department but most importantly the magazine one. I understand DE want tonkor to be the crit launcher and ogris to be the status one but for it to be a viable status weapon it needs have a high rate of fire (which you can get with the new mechanic) but most important of all, follow up shots that take advantage of said status procs, which isn't gonna happen with a 3 round magazine.

[8faiNt]

but.. that's better than the normal kohm. what is your point with kohm?

[ExcaliburUmbra]

Weapons should not be balanced around an optional and unnecessary system. Not everyone owns a Riven for Kohm or Ogris, and for people who don’t the variants should still be an upgrade. If the variants aren’t worth it compared to the un-Riven’d regular version, then we have a problem that warrants buffs to those variants imo.

26 minutes ago, SprinKah said:

I think DE should look at these weapons a little more in depth, either buff them more to compensate for the riven dispo or increase the riven disposition for some of them. 

I imagine the latter will likely be the case. If the issue is with Riven dispositions then it should be a simple matter to bring them in line.

[taiiat]

with Ogris sure, it's not really any better in a meaningful way since Ogris is already Elemental Base with high Status.
and so ??? what is even different about it other than a different Fire Mode (essentially no difference).

as vanilla Ogris is already capable of filling the defined role as an AoE Gas applicator. but Kuva Ogris doesn't go anywhere from there, nor is it really different in any way.

 

Kuva Kohm is objectively better, though. saving Mod Slots on Status and maybe even on Fire Rate lets Kohm spec into Crits easier, which is really the only direction that Kohm could go from where it was with already filling the extreme for Status, the only thing left to add to it Stats wise would be Crits, and it got that.

Quote

and the 30% status chance can really make over-armor-stripping a big issue. 

you're joking, right? having nuclear levels of Status is literally what made Kohm so good in the first place.

 

- - - - - 

ultimately, i'd prefer Weapon Variants to go a different direction than other versions of said Weapon, so that they're different - but the game is all about pointless Powercreep (and then the Players get blamed for it when the game created it, but w/e), so if that's a must, then the Weapons do need to be better at something, then.

[SprinKah]

2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

with Ogris sure, it's not really any better in a meaningful way since Ogris is already Elemental Base with high Status.
and so ??? what is even different about it other than a different Fire Mode (essentially no difference).

as vanilla Ogris is already capable of filling the defined role as an AoE Gas applicator. but Kuva Ogris doesn't go anywhere from there, nor is it really different in any way.

 

Kuva Kohm is objectively better, though. saving Mod Slots on Status and maybe even on Fire Rate lets Kohm spec into Crits easier, which is really the only direction that Kohm could go from where it was with already filling the extreme for Status, the only thing left to add to it Stats wise would be Crits, and it got that.

you're joking, right? having nuclear levels of Status is literally what made Kohm so good in the first place.

 

- - - - - 

ultimately, i'd prefer Weapon Variants to go a different direction than other versions of said Weapon, so that they're different - but the game is all about pointless Powercreep (and then the Players get blamed for it when the game created it, but w/e), so if that's a must, then the Weapons do need to be better at something, then.

about the 30% status part, I truly truly mean it. I have got a riven that gives it 69% (nice) status chane, originally 90% on Kohm. Multishot and electric damagee. 

I built it for Corrosive and heat, as you can see if you watch thee vid....well, it strips armor in like a few shots, but it strips wayyyy too fast. And you know about the thingg with Corrosive, the 75% damage increasee only applies to enemies with ferrite armor and as I was fighting those corrupted gunners, at 80% or so health bar, most of them have already lost their armor, making it harder to chew through the rest of the health bar, using more ammo.

The thing with Kohm is that it doesn't proc corrosive on every pellet...but JUST enough to bring the armor down to a point that you can deal full dmg and still get the 75% dmg to Ferrite Armor. Dealing more damage, costing less ammo. I think you can notice that in the vid, hopeuflly. 

And man, I really wish we never had rivens but we do and it's a gateway to min-max-hell. I would be able to deal with Kuva Kohm performing maybe a wee bit worse than Kohm with the riven I had, jsut wish it had a little gimmick like how Kuva Seer has AoE and Quartakk has 2 fire modes. 

[SprinKah]

29 minutes ago, 8faiNt said:

but.. that's better than the normal kohm. what is your point with kohm?

Yes you are right I do admit that it kills faster...partly because of the better fire rate yes. But what I was referring to is riven, And I swear to god I wish we never had them but we do and personally, it's an aspect of maximizing your builds. SUre my riven isn't technically the best but I used it for both weapons, and from what I gathered, the Kuva Kohm didn't perform badly but not as good as Kohm. It is what it is...

34 minutes ago, ExcaliburUmbra said:

Weapons should not be balanced around an optional and unnecessary system. Not everyone owns a Riven for Kohm or Ogris, and for people who don’t the variants should still be an upgrade. If the variants aren’t worth it compared to the un-Riven’d regular version, then we have a problem that warrants buffs to those variants imo.

I imagine the latter will likely be the case. If the issue is with Riven dispositions then it should be a simple matter to bring them in line.

I doubt DE will likely do anything drastic with the dispo in the near future but one can only hope...And while I understand your point of view on the whole "riven is irrelevant" thing, I do share the sentiments, but the fact of the matter is, they exist and people want them, people want to min-max everything. I don't have a riven for every gun i use and personally, I don't collect and spend hundreds on them to get the best of the best. 

It's just one of the many cases where rivens will be used to determine the maximum potential of weapons, and I simply wanted to showcase how that is with the Kuva Kohm and Kohm. I hope that makes sense 😕

Should DE really care about that aspect though? I do not know but I do know there will be people out there who spent thousands of plats on rivens on certain weapons and better versions of them come out with the same Kuva weapons scenario here, some people will be a little salty. 

I mean, people will expect their rivens to work better on superior weapons, not the other way around yknow. 

[taiiat]

39 minutes ago, SprinKah said:

I built it for Corrosive and heat, as you can see if you watch thee vid....well, it strips armor in like a few shots, but it strips wayyyy too fast.

that's on you, with double Armor weakening. however that's exactly what you want, Kohm is... an Endurance Weapon. it's made for Lv500+ Enemies.
removing any and all Armor (or just Enemies not having Armor in the first place and it itself optimizes for Health Damage) and then starting to lag the game from applying thousands of Slash Status to all of the Enemies on the map at once is the exact thing what Kohm is supposed to do. and the only way to make that better, is to make it into Crit Slash.

Edited November 8, 2019 by taiiat

[ZarakkiZenn]

Haven't gotten my hands on them but as far as the Kuva Ogris is concerned, I'm not impressed.

I'm one of the few people who actually like the Ogris and plays with it regularly. I also have a godly riven for it.

Regardless, I wouldn't use the Kuva Ogris because three shots.. come on now. I even modded for reload speed on the regular variant because it was bad in that regard.

[SprinKah]

14 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that's on you, with double Armor weakening. however that's exactly what you want, Kohm is... an Endurance Weapon. it's made for Lv500+ Enemies.
removing any and all Armor (or just Enemies not having Armor in the first place and it itself optimizes for Health Damage) and then starting to lag the game from applying thousands of Slash Status to all of the Enemies on the map at once is the exact thing what Kohm is supposed to do. and the only way to make that better, is to make it into Crit Slash.

Well I mean....there aren't many options, at least not many that came to my mind, But I have definitely tested with....slashh build before. without riven, you have to go for Viral+Rad....I dunno about you but even after putting crit mods on AND using the riven I had....It still takes more than half of the Kuva Kohm's (I hope you're talking about thhe Kuva one) ammo capacity to get to 50% hhealth bar and let the slash do the rest...which also takes a long amount of time. (I even tested it in the video or so). 

Ofc, what I was testing in the simulacrum was its raw potential, without the use of any warframe abilities or enhancements. Naturally, Corrosive+Heat topped all of them (despite the over armor stripping thing). Corrosive+Cold still strips armor just as fast but without the 25%+ dmg from heat. 

I think when it comes to lvl 500+ (I've never gone that far), surely you stop relying solely on your weapons and more on specific....strats like some operator schools and crazy game-breaking warframe abilities...perhaps. There are certainly better ways to...strip armor than using Kuva Kohm 100% status if you're going that far....I mean, you wouldn't go that far without a coordinated team now, would you? 4 CP?

Edited November 8, 2019 by SprinKah

[taiiat]

35 minutes ago, SprinKah said:

I think when it comes to lvl 500+ (I've never gone that far), surely you stop relying solely on your weapons and more on specific....strats like some operator schools and crazy game-breaking warframe abilities...perhaps. There are certainly better ways to...strip armor than using Kuva Kohm 100% status if you're going that far....I mean, you wouldn't go that far without a coordinated team now, would you? 4 CP?

... i gave two options there, either Kohm removes the Armor and everyone else optimizes Damage, or the Enemies have no Armor to begin with(so yes, Corrosive Projection generally) and Kohm optimizes Damage. both options can be valid because Kohm will vaporize Armor pretty quickly and that especially nowadays there are quite a few interesting Auras to consider.

you don't stop relying on Weapons for quite a long time at high Levels, you just make your TTK more efficient. stacking Multipliers to increase your number of Enemies hit per Shot, Et Cetera. 

[SprinKah]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

... i gave two options there, either Kohm removes the Armor and everyone else optimizes Damage, or the Enemies have no Armor to begin with(so yes, Corrosive Projection generally) and Kohm optimizes Damage. both options can be valid because Kohm will vaporize Armor pretty quickly and that especially nowadays there are quite a few interesting Auras to consider.

you don't stop relying on Weapons for quite a long time at high Levels, you just make your TTK more efficient. stacking Multipliers to increase your number of Enemies hit per Shot, Et Cetera. 

guess so, that's quite a feat, but hear this. Let's say you are bringing either Kohm/Kuva Kohm to a mission.

without a riven, surely Kuva Kohm will probably do the job better than Kohm in most cases, and you're gonna be going through 0 armor enemies.

But let's say you DO have a riven, whatever riven, it be multishot or damage or fire rate. because of how the disposition is now for the Kuva Kohm, it will definitely fall short in terms of dps. Kuva Kohm already has 10 less base dmg already, the 19% crit chance is nice but not exactly a number you'd call reliable. even the 11% on Kohm crits quite regularly

So yeah, with whatever riven equipped, Kohm will probably become better stats-wise compared to Kuva Kohm, because it isn't a small difference, my riven got rekt rather hard witht he dispo, hence why my Kuva Kohm fell short in the video i recorded. I heard there's this one guy that had a 125% sc that got nerfed to 45%, I dunno if that's true though.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

If you need a riven to call your weapon good. You don’t know what a good weapon is.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, SprinKah said:

the 19% crit chance is nice but not exactly a number you'd call reliable. even the 11% on Kohm crits quite regularly

that's pretty contradictory.

the benefit is freeing up Mod Slots compared to vanilla, which certainly compensates for a small Base Damage loss, and lessens the impact of Riven losses. but then the Riven can switch over to Crits or merging more Mod Slots, so that more Crits can be utiilzed.

Edited November 8, 2019 by taiiat

[ekental]

3 hours ago, SprinKah said:

guess so, that's quite a feat, but hear this. Let's say you are bringing either Kohm/Kuva Kohm to a mission.

without a riven, surely Kuva Kohm will probably do the job better than Kohm in most cases, and you're gonna be going through 0 armor enemies.

But let's say you DO have a riven, whatever riven, it be multishot or damage or fire rate. because of how the disposition is now for the Kuva Kohm, it will definitely fall short in terms of dps. Kuva Kohm already has 10 less base dmg already, the 19% crit chance is nice but not exactly a number you'd call reliable. even the 11% on Kohm crits quite regularly

So yeah, with whatever riven equipped, Kohm will probably become better stats-wise compared to Kuva Kohm, because it isn't a small difference, my riven got rekt rather hard witht he dispo, hence why my Kuva Kohm fell short in the video i recorded. I heard there's this one guy that had a 125% sc that got nerfed to 45%, I dunno if that's true though.

 

The Kuva Kohm is way better than the normal variant. The whole point of the weapon, as mentioned is it can armor strip.

 

Specifically, at 100% status, every pellet in a shotgun weapon will proc a status. At <100% status, your status chance is divided among the pellets shot.

In your test you have ~3.8% status/pellet at full spool, compared to literally 100%/pellet; an utter waste of the Kuva Kohm's potential. Good on you for doing the science, but you had the wrong setup.

That makes the Kuva Kohm a major, objectively better weapon compared to the normal Kohm on high level enemies. Especially if you do NOT have a riven, because a normal Kohm's dmg is going to be terrible without the armor strip. You'll literally be doing 8-20% dmg on the first few hits. (high level mobs)

If you do have a Riven you absolutely want status chance, because it saves you slots & you can reach 100% status on a normal Kohm. This is going to be objectively better than dmg/multishot on high level enemies, as you'll likely 0 your enemy's armor in a single full hit spread.

That will multiply your dmg on the next shot by ~10x on high level armored mobs. WAY more than any pure dmg Riven.

Even better, a Kuva Kohm has innate elemental damage on it. Which means your procs will further weight in the elemental direction & if you use a sane pick for progenitor you don't need Blaze. Which basically saves you a mod slot right there.

As for the Riven:

On a normal Kohm you need +300% status to get to the 100% status threshold. That means your Riven breakpoints are multiples of 60%, and you NEED a +60% to even hit 100% status.
On the Kuva Kohm you need +233.33% status. The disposition is lower, specifically ~71.4% effective compared to the normal Riven. Your 1st breakpoint is 53.33%, then 113.33%,etc afterwards. No riven is actually required to hit 100% status.

For every breakpoint you reach, you save a mod.

That means you can put whatever stat you can't take advantage of on, which is a major increase in damage. Specifically you could take advantage of Crit/Critdmg, which as mentioned is the only thing you wouldn't have space for otherwise.

At base, 19% x2.3 on the Kuva Kohm with only +crit/critdmg mods you get x2.21 dmg avg. (after all other mods)
At base, 11% x2.3 on the Kohm, same as above you get x1.70 dmg avg. (after all other mods)
So the Kuva Kohm on crit/crit dmg alone is already 30% better, and that's assuming you could get a riven that would allow you to use crit/critdmg in the first place on the normal Kohm, no small feat.

You could argue that pure dmg is better on lower level mobs and just use the Normal Kohm for its disposition. Sure thing, let me introduce you then to an Ignis, Saryn, Equinox, Volt, etc. All the ez options that will far outkill a player having to actually aim with a Kohm.

tl;dr Kuva Kohm is better than the Kohm in all the ways that people care about. It doesn't require a riven to hit 100% status, it saves you a mod slot just by having one, more if you have a riven, and the riven roll itself is easier on the Kuva Kohm even after the disposition nerf.

As for the Kuva Ogris. It's garbage.

Edited November 8, 2019 by ekental
Formatting

[SprinKah]

5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

If you need a riven to call your weapon good. You don’t know what a good weapon is.

I mean...it is not like I ain't aware of that, I'veee always disliked what rivens have done to the game but the fact of thhee matter is whether I like it or not...they're a part of this game and well, they're the last piece of the puzzle to measure the final....potential of a weapon. I know not everyone is gonna get a riven for everything but despite how hard it is to get a good riven, it's always a possibility.

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

that's pretty contradictory.

the benefit is freeing up Mod Slots compared to vanilla, which certainly compensates for a small Base Damage loss, and lessens the impact of Riven losses. but then the Riven can switch over to Crits or merging more Mod Slots, so that more Crits can be utiilzed.

you know, I also have another riven, it has crit chance and damage, and if I remember correctly, it's 65%cc/128%dmg on Kuva Kohm and 92%cc/180%dmg on Kohm....riven disposition... 

You have no idea how much I've tested this weapons. I compare these weapons with various builds and various mods against lvl 140 corrupted heavy gunners....the Kuva Kohm always ends up consuming around 27 -35 rounds, sometimes reaching 50+ if I don't use a build that gets to 100% sc, While the Kohm, despite never truly able to reach 100% (99.98%), always capable of dispatching them with 22-31 rounds, no more, no less. With the riven disposition, unless you have riven with negative stats for better crit chance, it'll probably never be able to reach beyond 120% on Kuva Kohm, it might be able to with Kohm (because dispo), but not with Kuva Kohm. So really, even with more crit-focused rivens, Kohm's also capable of reaching almost the same level of crits that Kuva Kohm can bc of riven dispo, I would know because I have one.

3 hours ago, ekental said:

 

The Kuva Kohm is way better than the normal variant. The whole point of the weapon, as mentioned is it can armor strip.

Spoiler

 

Specifically, at 100% status, every pellet in a shotgun weapon will proc a status. At <100% status, your status chance is divided among the pellets shot.

In your test you have ~3.8% status/pellet at full spool, compared to literally 100%/pellet; an utter waste of the Kuva Kohm's potential. Good on you for doing the science, but you had the wrong setup.

That makes the Kuva Kohm a major, objectively better weapon compared to the normal Kohm on high level enemies. Especially if you do NOT have a riven, because a normal Kohm's dmg is going to be terrible without the armor strip. You'll literally be doing 8-20% dmg on the first few hits. (high level mobs)

If you do have a Riven you absolutely want status chance, because it saves you slots & you can reach 100% status on a normal Kohm. This is going to be objectively better than dmg/multishot on high level enemies, as you'll likely 0 your enemy's armor in a single full hit spread.

That will multiply your dmg on the next shot by ~10x on high level armored mobs. WAY more than any pure dmg Riven.

Even better, a Kuva Kohm has innate elemental damage on it. Which means your procs will further weight in the elemental direction & if you use a sane pick for progenitor you don't need Blaze. Which basically saves you a mod slot right there.

As for the Riven:

On a normal Kohm you need +300% status to get to the 100% status threshold. That means your Riven breakpoints are multiples of 60%, and you NEED a +60% to even hit 100% status.
On the Kuva Kohm you need +233.33% status. The disposition is lower, specifically ~71.4% effective compared to the normal Riven. Your 1st breakpoint is 53.33%, then 113.33%,etc afterwards. No riven is actually required to hit 100% status.

For every breakpoint you reach, you save a mod.

That means you can put whatever stat you can't take advantage of on, which is a major increase in damage. Specifically you could take advantage of Crit/Critdmg, which as mentioned is the only thing you wouldn't have space for otherwise.

At base, 19% x2.3 on the Kuva Kohm with only +crit/critdmg mods you get x2.21 dmg avg. (after all other mods)
At base, 11% x2.3 on the Kohm, same as above you get x1.70 dmg avg. (after all other mods)
So the Kuva Kohm on crit/crit dmg alone is already 30% better, and that's assuming you could get a riven that would allow you to use crit/critdmg in the first place on the normal Kohm, no small feat.

You could argue that pure dmg is better on lower level mobs and just use the Normal Kohm for its disposition. Sure thing, let me introduce you then to an Ignis, Saryn, Equinox, Volt, etc. All the ez options that will far outkill a player having to actually aim with a Kohm.

tl;dr Kuva Kohm is better than the Kohm in all the ways that people care about. It doesn't require a riven to hit 100% status, it saves you a mod slot just by having one, more if you have a riven, and the riven roll itself is easier on the Kuva Kohm even after the disposition nerf.

As for the Kuva Ogris. It's garbage.

 

 

I read everything you wrote, I am very much aware of Kuva Kohm's armor stripping capabilities and 100% sc....but the thing is, from what I've gathered...it is more of a....hindrance than anything really...Are you aware that corrosive only applies its 75%dmg bonus to enemies WITH ferrite armor? without ANY ferrite armor, it basically deals...75% less damage by default. Like I've said, the Kuva Kohm is you build for 100% corrosive blast, it will have 2 effects:

1) It strips entire armor completely in a few shots at like 80% health bar

2) It knocks enemies onto the ground constantly making it very hard to hit headshot 

I've already test no-riven build on Kuva Kohm already with corrosive+blast, with those 2 aspects....it chews through ammo even more than the build I used in the video that doesn't go full 100%. Bc in the vid, the build I used allowed me to ACTUALLY hit heads consistently, and it doesn't strip armor prematurely but just enough to keep the 75% dmg buff from corrosive. It is the most optimal build for a conventional situation. AND MY KUVA KOHM has HEAT bonus, not toxin or electricity.

But tbh, in the end, Kuva Kohm beats Kohm without riven, but not by a lot tbh.

 

BUT when it comes to rivens however, also like I've said, the riven disposition affects things harder than you'd think. I have 2 rivens

1) status chance, multishot and electricity

2) dmg and crit chance and -recoil. 

Stats on these rivens are quit dramatically lessened on the Kohm. 

So even with only 11% crit, Kohm can potentially get to the same level of crits as Kuva Kohm. And it will always be like that beacue Kohm will always have a higher disposition.

And with the first riven I listed, I'm able to reach 100% with only 3 6060 mods....but when I compared to the KOHM with the same riven, same setup like in the video....you can see that the Kohm handled itself very well without the 100% sc, IF ONLY Kuva Kohm doesn't strip the corrupted gunner's armor completely, it'd probably be better than the Kohm.

-I tried using only 2 6060 mods + another 90% toxin on the kuva kohm wit my riven, not fully reaching 100%, it performed worse than the build in the vid.

-I tried with laser sight instead of Primed Charged shell, keeping 3 6060 -> 100%sc....it still performed worse than the build in the vid, still over-armor-stripping. 

-I tried viral/radiation slash, crit build....it is a bloody joke.

Despite the fact that Kuva Kohm can technically dispatch the lvl 140 heavy gunner in the vid just a tiny bit faster BECAUSE it has a higher fire rate meaning consuming more ammo/running out of ammo faster, having to reload more often.

I also tried the crit-focused riven I have, sad to say it doesn't perform quite as good as the first riven I have. Maybe there are better rivens that MIGHT work better with Kuva Kohm than Kohm, but as far as I've seen, Kuva Kohm's performance with the rivens I had is a little questionable. 

 

 

[DrBorris]

Add this to the list of reasons why Kohm being immune to disposition changes is bad.

 

The OP is a bit misleading because of that fact, Kohm sits in a weird place where DE won't nerf its disposition despite them basically admitting that it should be lower. And as for Ogris, well, Kuva Ogris is just kinda bad in general.

[SprinKah]

5 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Add this to the list of reasons why Kohm being immune to disposition changes is bad.

 

The OP is a bit misleading because of that fact, Kohm sits in a weird place where DE won't nerf its disposition despite them basically admitting that it should be lower. And as for Ogris, well, Kuva Ogris is just kinda bad in general.

To b honeest with you, I wouldn't mind Kohm getting a riven dispo nerf. It just doesn't sit well with me that the SUPPOSEDLY better version of the Kohm, the Kuva Kohm, is...arguably worse or not any better than the Kohm when it comes to riven build.

The Kohm on its own right now is already pretty good, it being 5/5 disposition wasn't that big of a deal but it's still strong, now that the Kuva Kohm is out, I'd rather it take the spot of the superior version. 

[DrBorris]

42 minutes ago, SprinKah said:

To b honeest with you, I wouldn't mind Kohm getting a riven dispo nerf. It just doesn't sit well with me that the SUPPOSEDLY better version of the Kohm, the Kuva Kohm, is...arguably worse or not any better than the Kohm when it comes to riven build.

The Kohm on its own right now is already pretty good, it being 5/5 disposition wasn't that big of a deal but it's still strong, now that the Kuva Kohm is out, I'd rather it take the spot of the superior version. 

Kohm being 5/5 disposition was broken the day it happened. Kohm has never been that bad of a weapon. And as for nerfing Kohm's disposition, now that DE has set the precedent that it won't be nerfed there will be some very unhappy people if it is nerfed. Personally I would just say screw them, balance is more important than your toy, but in general DE avoids doing stuff like that.

So then the other option is to just buff Kuva Kohm's disposition so that it is better... which just reinforces the problem of Kohm Rivens being broken. Also power-creep.

 

DE is stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one, unfortunately I feel they will take the path of least resistance and just leave a Riven'd Kuva Kohm as inferior to a Riven'd Kohm. I don't like that outcome, but it is what I expect.

[SprinKah]

7 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Kohm being 5/5 disposition was broken the day it happened. Kohm has never been that bad of a weapon. And as for nerfing Kohm's disposition, now that DE has set the precedent that it won't be nerfed there will be some very unhappy people if it is nerfed. Personally I would just say screw them, balance is more important than your toy, but in general DE avoids doing stuff like that.

So then the other option is to just buff Kuva Kohm's disposition so that it is better... which just reinforces the problem of Kohm Rivens being broken. Also power-creep.

 

DE is stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one, unfortunately I feel they will take the path of least resistance and just leave a Riven'd Kuva Kohm as inferior to a Riven'd Kohm. I don't like that outcome, but it is what I expect.

tbh dude, Now that Kuva Kohm is out, I doubt people will be TOO mad if Kohm riven disposition is nerfed to like...3/5, I mean...as you can see the comments above don't seem to be very...accepting of my results on Kuva Kohm being a little bit underwhelming when it comes to riven compared to Kohm (in some cases, they're right)

People havent been TOO outraged about Kuva Kohm getting 3/5, MAYBE it's the false perception that because Kohm riven works well on Kohm, it will 100% work BETTER on Kuva Kohm...which based on my testing and recordings...not exactly the case. So yeah, if they neerf the Kohm to a 3/5, I don't think people will be too mad, they''ll all be drawn to the newer and the raw improvement of Kuva Kohm. 

That way, they dont need to worry about Kuva Kohm becoming TOO good if they were to up its dispo and Kohm being...better with rivens. 

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by SprinKah

[ekental]

Gotta break down the post so lots of quoting:

Quote

I am very much aware of Kuva Kohm's armor stripping capabilities and 100% sc....but the thing is, from what I've gathered...it is more of a....hindrance than anything really...Are you aware that corrosive only applies its 75%dmg bonus to enemies WITH ferrite armor?

Yes, armor stripping is a problem in theory. In a perfect world we would want mobs to get to 1 armor and keep them there, ala Shattering impact on Eidolons.

Lets also note corrosive is not a 75% bonus, it's markedly more than that as it double dips for armor reduction pre-proc & on the 75% damage bonus itself. The wiki is a good resource here if you want a better understanding.

Practically, lets consider what's happening when we look at a 100% status kohm vs one that isn't.

A lvl 140 heavy gunner has ~13.3k Ferrite armor. ~98.7% DR.

Either Kohm w/ Corrosive damage is going to get the bonus +75% until the target runs out of armor. We can ignore that part till that actually happens. Once it does the result is going to be dependent on how many Corrosive procs are on the mob. I understand fire is 1/2 armor for the duration as well, but lets just look at corrosive for a moment here to get the point across.

So just going by feeling, looks like for the first dozen or so corrosive procs you're getting good returns. a 21.75% -> 32.36% increase in dmg per proc. We're gonna need ~35 procs to strip armor with Corrosive alone.
Additionally we see armor DR% is a reciprocal function. A mob hits diminishing returns somewhere around 1200 armor, or maybe 900 depending on what your metric is.
Finally this chart isn't right either as it shows %dmg taken without taking into account that Corrosive dmg bonus, it only illustrates the trend DR trend of armor as it's stripped.

Until that point, both 100% status Kohms and any other variant using Corrosive will both get their bonus dmg applied. Difference is, the 100% status kohm will rack up the dmg increases much faster than the latter. If we reference the test video linked, ~25x faster.

So the question is does the dmg taken via armor degradation from Corrosive outpaces higher raw damage output? More relevant, what level of enemy is armor stripping going to outdo raw damage?

Clearly we can see if we threw a lvl 500 heavy gunner at a non-100% status kohm it would perform terribly compared to a 100% status one as ~129k armor will keep it at 99%+ DR for far too long. Conversely something without much ferrite armor but a lot of HP is going to take more damage with as little status chance as possible.

Additionally with the new fire proc that should keep a lower status chance Kohm with fire on it more viable to a higher enemy level than a 100% status kohm. Which... just means the Kuva kohm, with its ability to have innate fire dmg is even more valuable.

That's always been the eternal issue with armor and armor stripping weapons in this game. There's going to be a point where Armor stripping ala 100% status weapon is clearly, objectively better for DPS. That level of mob doesn't exist in normal content. You won't be running a sortie and seeing this, and even your test the level of mob is only tenuously at the old threshold of where people would seriously consider a 100% status weapon. Lets also note no one's fighting lvl 140 mobs with regularity either.

In normal content that everyone will actually be running, a 100% status Kohm will be worse than a <100% status kohm.

The problem is in normal content no one will want to be running a Kohm to kill trash in the first place. As noted before there are better weapons and frames than the Kohm for that sort of thing.

The reason people obsess over the Kohm is because of its ability to deal with the edge cases of unusually high level (ala high armored) enemies so well. Just in case you're doing some lengthy arbitration run it is one of the few primary weapons that will be effective there after hours in it, and that's solely because of its ability to hit 100% status while being a shotgun.

Which is why part of the misunderstanding here is what we even consider high lvl mobs and why:

Quote

2) It knocks enemies onto the ground constantly making it very hard to hit headshot 

Is acceptable if you don't have a Riven, because you would rather being doing relevant dmg to a prone lvl 250+ mob via armor stripping than empty your entire clip and maybe not even kill it without a 100% status Kohm.

 

We are typing about two different situations here.

The Kohm is a specific tool and in specific situation it does something better than any other weapon in the game. It's not a generalist weapon, as it's completely overshadowed by so many other weapons and many WF abilities in that role, as noted in the my 1st post.

Ok, but what if someone really wanted to use a Kohm for trash killing because they like it?

Quote

when it comes to rivens however, also like I've said, the riven disposition affects things harder than you'd think

Let's note that I do understand how riven disposition works as I literally wrote out what the difference between the two was in my 1st post.

Without a riven, even if you're just going to shoot low lvl trash and aren't running 100% status, the innate ele dmg is already THE reason to pick a Kuva Kohm over a kohm. As fire armor strips 50% you can pump more pure dmg on a Kuva Kohm than a regular one and get an ele. dmg bonus, almost the best of both worlds.

With a riven regardless of your roll you will get ~71.4% Riven effectiveness on the Kuva Kohm. (1/1.4)

Quote

So even with only 11% crit, Kohm can potentially get to the same level of crits as Kuva Kohm. And it will always be like that beacue Kohm will always have a higher disposition.

Regardless of the Riven roll we see 19% / 11% (Kuva vs Normal) = +72.7% > ~20.6% effectiveness reduction. So already we can see rolling crit/crit dmg nets you a better dmg bonus on the Kuva Kohm in comparison. So.. no you will not get to the same level of crits.

Math for the non-believer:

• a +120% crit rate Kohm riven is +85.7% on a Kuva Kohm. Or 24.2% vs 35.283% crit. You will crit 45.8% more often with the Kuva Kohm. As for the dmg you can refer to the previous post for how much better it'll do there.

As a sidenote, just looking at the video you're losing ~20% dmg using Vigilante armaments instead of Blaze. I can see why you'd use it for status but if you're going for trash killing you may as well go for dmg. Time to kill on simulacrum mobs differences you see with one over the other is going to purely be because of the specific case of their level and your status procs at that point, which is contrary to the point your trying to make.

If you have a Kohm, Multishot is where you'll get the most bang for your buck if dmg is all you care about. If you have a Kuva Kohm, you can pick any or all of MS/Crit/Critdmg, making the Kuva Kohm more versatile and easier to roll in that regard as well.

How you compare and mod any weapon depends on understanding how you can maximize it for what you want to do (general vs high lvl). The tests done in video only show you how some specific builds compare. i.e. you found a specific status chance% + dmg that beat out the other builds against the specific case of a 140 Heavy Gunner.

It doesn't inform comprehensive decisions on whether the Kuva Kohm is better than the Kohm.

The tl;dr on the previous post is still accurate, nothings changed there. The Kuva Kohm will be better than the Kohm if you optimize it for any specific case you have (armor or not). You might match it with the right Kohm roll, but it's also much easier to roll the Kuva Kohm if all you want is dmg.

Edited November 8, 2019 by ekental
1 word

[SprinKah]

2 hours ago, ekental said:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

34

Spoiler

 

Gotta break down the post so lots of quoting:

Yes, armor stripping is a problem in theory. In a perfect world we would want mobs to get to 1 armor and keep them there, ala Shattering impact on Eidolons.

Lets also note corrosive is not a 75% bonus, it's markedly more than that as it double dips for armor reduction pre-proc & on the 75% damage bonus itself. The wiki is a good resource here if you want a better understanding.

Practically, lets consider what's happening when we look at a 100% status kohm vs one that isn't.

A lvl 140 heavy gunner has ~13.3k Ferrite armor. ~98.7% DR.

Either Kohm w/ Corrosive damage is going to get the bonus +75% until the target runs out of armor. We can ignore that part till that actually happens. Once it does the result is going to be dependent on how many Corrosive procs are on the mob. I understand fire is 1/2 armor for the duration as well, but lets just look at corrosive for a moment here to get the point across.

So just going by feeling, looks like for the first dozen or so corrosive procs you're getting good returns. a 21.75% -> 32.36% increase in dmg per proc. We're gonna need ~35 procs to strip armor with Corrosive alone.
Additionally we see armor DR% is a reciprocal function. A mob hits diminishing returns somewhere around 1200 armor, or maybe 900 depending on what your metric is.
Finally this chart isn't right either as it shows %dmg taken without taking into account that Corrosive dmg bonus, it only illustrates the trend DR trend of armor as it's stripped.

Until that point, both 100% status Kohms and any other variant using Corrosive will both get their bonus dmg applied. Difference is, the 100% status kohm will rack up the dmg increases much faster than the latter. If we reference the test video linked, ~25x faster.

So the question is does the dmg taken via armor degradation from Corrosive outpaces higher raw damage output? More relevant, what level of enemy is armor stripping going to outdo raw damage?

Clearly we can see if we threw a lvl 500 heavy gunner at a non-100% status kohm it would perform terribly compared to a 100% status one as ~129k armor will keep it at 99%+ DR for far too long. Conversely something without much ferrite armor but a lot of HP is going to take more damage with as little status chance as possible.

Additionally with the new fire proc that should keep a lower status chance Kohm with fire on it more viable to a higher enemy level than a 100% status kohm. Which... just means the Kuva kohm, with its ability to have innate fire dmg is even more valuable.

That's always been the eternal issue with armor and armor stripping weapons in this game. There's going to be a point where Armor stripping ala 100% status weapon is clearly, objectively better for DPS. That level of mob doesn't exist in normal content. You won't be running a sortie and seeing this, and even your test the level of mob is only tenuously at the old threshold of where people would seriously consider a 100% status weapon. Lets also note no one's fighting lvl 140 mobs with regularity either.

In normal content that everyone will actually be running, a 100% status Kohm will be worse than a <100% status kohm.

The problem is in normal content no one will want to be running a Kohm to kill trash in the first place. As noted before there are better weapons and frames than the Kohm for that sort of thing.

The reason people obsess over the Kohm is because of its ability to deal with the edge cases of unusually high level (ala high armored) enemies so well. Just in case you're doing some lengthy arbitration run it is one of the few primary weapons that will be effective there after hours in it, and that's solely because of its ability to hit 100% status while being a shotgun.

Which is why part of the misunderstanding here is what we even consider high lvl mobs and why:

Is acceptable if you don't have a Riven, because you would rather being doing relevant dmg to a prone lvl 250+ mob via armor stripping than empty your entire clip and maybe not even kill it without a 100% status Kohm.

 

We are typing about two different situations here.

The Kohm is a specific tool and in specific situation it does something better than any other weapon in the game. It's not a generalist weapon, as it's completely overshadowed by so many other weapons and many WF abilities in that role, as noted in the 1st post.

Ok, but what if someone really wanted to use a Kohm for trash killing because they like it?

Let's note that I do understand how riven disposition works as I literally wrote out what the difference between the two was in my 1st post.

Without a riven, even if you're just going to shoot low lvl trash and aren't running 100% status, the innate ele dmg is already THE reason to pick a Kuva Kohm over a kohm. As fire armor strips 50% you can pump more pure dmg on a Kuva Kohm than a regular one and get an ele. dmg bonus, almost the best of both worlds.

With a riven regardless of your roll you will get ~71.4% Riven effectiveness on the Kuva Kohm. (1/1.4)

Regardless of the Riven roll we see 19% / 11% (Kuva vs Normal) = +72.7% > ~20.6% effectiveness reduction. So already we can see rolling crit/crit dmg nets you a better dmg bonus on the Kuva Kohm in comparison. So.. no you will not get to the same level of crits.

Math for the non-believer:

• a +120% crit rate Kohm riven is +85.7% on a Kuva Kohm. Or 24.2% vs 35.283% crit. You will crit 45.8% more often with the Kuva Kohm. As for the dmg you can refer to the previous post for how much better it'll do there.

As a sidenote, just looking at the video you're losing ~20% dmg using Vigilante armaments instead of Blaze. I can see why you'd use it for status but if you're going for trash killing you may as well go for dmg. Time to kill on simulacrum mobs differences you see with one over the other is going to purely be because of the specific case of their level and your status procs at that point, which is contrary to the point your trying to make.

If you have a Kohm, Multishot is where you'll get the most bang for your buck if dmg is all you care about. If you have a Kuva Kohm, you can pick any or all of MS/Crit/Critdmg, making the Kuva Kohm more versatile and easier to roll in that regard as well.

How you compare and mod any weapon depends on understanding how you can maximize it for what you want to do (general vs high lvl). The tests done in video only show you how some specific builds compare. i.e. you found a specific status chance% + dmg that beat out the other builds against the specific case of a 140 Heavy Gunner.

It doesn't inform comprehensive decisions on whether the Kuva Kohm is better than the Kohm.

The tl;dr on the previous post is still accurate, nothings changed there. The Kuva Kohm will be better than the Kohm if you optimize it for any specific case you have (armor or not). You might match it with the right Kohm roll, but it's also much easier to roll the Kuva Kohm if all you want is dmg.

 

 

holy crap, um, I gotta honestly give you props for all this highly detailed analysis. 

I do honestly have to admit, I've never thought of things beyond.....lvl 165 or something. I never really had a lot of time to go to great lengths to like....lvl 500+, i don't even know how to even get there but yknow...Warframe has endless missions, imo and it's just me, I think it's really pointless to think about how things are after level 165 or so. Bc the average players would never really go for that. And what if you go for 600, 700, 800, etc...

I apologize for if I misintepret any of your points, I do see a lot of validity in your arguments!

Clearly my tests against lvl 140 Corrupted Heavy gunners are still a little execessive in terms of normal content, but I wanted to stress test it I'm sure you understand, like your arguments with lvl500 and such. 

And I am sure that when in normal missions, you won't really...notice any crazy difference between the kohm and Kuva Kohm ( I do personally enjoy the faster fire rate but that ammo cap is really something...).

And to say one thing, i've done more testing between these 2 guns, probably more than you think, I had a 27 minutes video testing them, ofc I made it unlisted because it's long, I linked that vid in another kohm and kuva kohm comparison vid before the vid I posted on here...so yes, I have 3 vids comparing them, a bit exessive yes. 

And about the whole crit and riven disposition part. I gotta be honest with you, I am not much of an expert but from what I've gathered, yes I am aware that...19% on Kuva Kohm isn't something to be scoffed at...but to a lesser extent, 11% on Kohm too. Sure the crit capabilties on kuva kohm is a lot better than Kohm but with how shotguns are like, they shoot multiple pellets and all of them have a chance of critting, stuff you probably already know. With that....even with 11%, oftenly, I almost see just as many yellow numbers as Kuva Kohm.

I have one crit/damage focused riven I listed above, but I performs as well as the build that I went with on the Kuva Kohm in the vid, and compared to the build on Kohm, it got no chance. Then again, it's because it didn't allow me to get 100% sc with 3 6060 mods, so If I'm gonna roll some more with the riven, I need some damage, maybe crits but most importantly, at least 60% status chance. And even then...I still don't know if it will par against the Kohm build in the vid or even, the Kohm with the riven I might be able to roll. Theory is one thing but it's different in practice. 

I think a good choice is also going for Radiation bonus Kohm, it will make it Corrosive-Heat-Radiation which can potentially reduce the number of corrosive procs...maybe, thus retaining the 75% dmg bonus, and of course, the Radiation proc is also good for crowd control. 

Also, the reason why i went with Vigilante Armaments in the vid (I think) is bc I wanted to match with the Kohm build, for comparison sake. I tried corrosive-blast 100%sc ofc, but it falls behind in terms of shots-to-kill and dps, and the knockdown hindrance which like you said, is good CC for certain scenarios yes, but not my objective in the video. Hopefully this wasnt too painful to skim through. 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by SprinKah

[Galadonn]

On 2019-11-08 at 2:03 AM, SprinKah said:

I've been extensively testing this, I got a few Kuva weapons that are "upgrade" counterparts of the originals. Kuva Kohm, Ogris, Tonkor.

These are the 3 Kuva weapons so far that I noticed...have got "improvements" that can make them...worse than their originals, and that fact is only enhanced with the new riven disposition system. 

Also I reckon that some other Kuva weapons will possibly suffer the same effect, like the Kraken, Karak or even Drakgoon. 

Here are some videos that I recorded, extensively tested the weapons, with and without rivens, results may surprise you:

Kuva KOHM:

  Reveal hidden contents

It'd be cool if we get the 245+ capacity from the Kohm back, and perhaps damage as well, just the same with KOHM. Is this considered worse than the og Kohm? Not really but it is still disappointing. I couldn't make a build that couldn't go through a single mag on the Kuva Kohm compared to Kohm. Technically, less ammo used but reloading is mandatory so it doesn't matter.

and the 30% status chance can really make over-armor-stripping a big issue. 

Also, I wouldn't mind Kohm getting a riven dispo nerf from 5/5 to 3/5, It doesn't sit very well with me that when it comes to riven, Kohm can potentially prevail more than Kuva Kohm. 

 

KUVA OGRIS:

  Hide contents

I think it needs a little more stats other than a change of mechanic to truly make this perform better

 

I don't wanna go too in-depth on my...train of thoughts on these weapons when I was testing them, I'm sure nobody wants that.

One thing I can say, I do understand why the people at DE would implement this new riven disposition system, it makes sense. But there are a lot of better variants of weapons that just won't have....better enough stats to make up for the riven disposition change, like the Kuva weapons I listed above.

I don't really see the point of getting another version of a weapon that isn't really gonna benefit further with a riven.

I'm not asking for any crazy buff,, but an improved version of a weapon should be an improvement, not a rollback.

I think DE should look at these weapons a little more in depth, either buff them more to compensate for the riven dispo or increase the riven disposition for some of them. 

 

While I am aware that some of these weapons MAY be able to perform better than their original counterpart, Rivens exist and many players will want to min-max, to reach the full potential, they will not be please that their full potential ends up being rather...mediocre or worse, "nothing too special" versions compared to the their OG counterparts. 

I just did some tests on my own and i was shocked, after farming so hard to finally get the kuva ogris (which i was excited about since i like ogris) and i discovered that with my riven the dmg was lower than the normal ogris. Its SO stupid, tha'ts where you see that DE doesn't play their game enough.

And once again after all the time we spent grinding and farming, the ones who have to pay for these stupid changes are the veterans like us....