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Vit0Corleone

Why DE did not pursue the Eidolon progression systems?

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I was thinking today about periods on my Warframe "experience" where I felt like I was pursuing a clear goal, and the obvious thing that occurred to me was Eidolon hunting.

I remember when I first saw an Eidolon and mindlessly tried to smack him, and obviously repeatedly dying in the process, how impressive it looked and felt. And of course wondering what would take to take him down. Then I learned that was merely the first, and easiest, of 3 massive beasts.

At that point I was sold, I really really wanted to get into that and be able to kill them myself.

That of course led to lots of research ( which I appreciate doing ), and an intense period of grinding and practicing, both things that I also appreciate as well.

Pretty sure it took me more than 1 month to grind my way through, that between syndicates ( low MR.. ) , amps, arcanes, and focus/operator, until eventually I managed to do my first solo tridolon.

 

What strikes me when thinking about this experience, is that, besides the normal progression that a new player needs to go through on the game, this activity was ( and still is?) the only thing in Warframe that has a clear path that embraces challenge, grinding, and rewards, across a time window that can potentially last a long time, depending on the player. 

I ... miss that ... I wish there was more. I don't mean Eidolons specifically, but the system around that. The progression, the grinding, the challenge ..

I wonder, why did DE abandon this path? There is nothing in Warframe currently that comes close to this. No doubt for me it was the most rewarding experience if I think back in time, both in terms of actual rewards and the plain rewarding aspect of achieving a goal that takes quite a while to pursue.

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For older players, there wasn't really so much of a gap between it being there and killing it. People who had focus already didn't have to wait quite as long to make their operators not feel miserable to use, and higher MRs could get through the syndicate ranks pretty quick. I guess I hadn't really thought about how early into progression the Teralyst might get waved around into new player's faces, though.

In general, though, it would be hard for them to introduce something similar again, because they'd need to add another entire game system to try to mimic it. Eidolons were designed as end-game by trying to make frames as irrelevant as possible and instead being a boss fight almost entirely revolving around operators, which had just been reworked and had a new weapon system added that everyone was going to start from 0 on. Of course, they didn't quite pull this off well, so instead of frames being completely irrelevant the few roles that slipped through the design intent just became a sort of strict meta for players. It also turned out they horribly failed at balancing amp parts against each other, or focus trees for the task, and so the meta strategy ended up coming around to everyone sitting in invincibility until they're charged enough to just one-shot the phase.

Team coordination for everything to pull off the big chains in one night ended up requiring quite a bit more skill and coordination, but that's kind of just because it's a speedrun, and has little indication of what the bosses ended up being like in a vacuum.

But anyhow. Without another new system to try to throw everyone at a 0 point again, the most they really seem able to do is lock a boss fight behind syndicate grind, like Profit-Taker. I guess Railjack is coming up??? Good luck with that one, then.

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I just wish they'd get rid of the time-gate, make it so you have to start a bounty to spawn them, and cap the number of times per day the bounty can be ran to keep the farming in check (if that is an issue).  On top of that, I wish they'd add more eidolons that are even harder to kill, but without having that 48min time crunch.  Could be like a boss rush kind of mode, idk.  Would just love to see the system expanded upon further.  Though it would be nice if they'd fix the gd amps!  So sick of switching to a secondary to deal with voms... There is no way an x27 with fury should take 5-7 shots on a vom when thats roughly what it takes for the mote, but I digress

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Yeah it was the best addition to the game in years but then they dropped the ball hard with Fortuna and its lackluster bosses

Edited by Monolake
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Absolutely detest the operator syndicate grinds.

I will never ever catch up because I refuse to farm the shards. I'd rather pull my own teeth.

I'm glad it got abandoned and remained self contained on earth.

Tying operator advancement and amp/arcane acquisition to these systems was wrong. 

Still waiting for a catchup mechanic before I bother.

 

Edited by IIDMOII
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didn't we had a similar feeling when sentients were introduced? half baked/done lores and systems is the main theme in warframe<>> come @ me white knights. even the syndicate system seems to never involved 3 of the syndicates on the lore side of things, should've been the easiest to add parts to. then we get 2 open worlds that is mostly starved of meaningfull content. well it's warfarm afterall.

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Were I to hazard a guess, I would say that it is too narrow a progression system for the game at large.

Specific standing grinds with limited (and in the case of Heists completely locked) progression options creates the problem of long-term player retention.

Aside from a handful of other ways to get sentient cores the only way to meaningfully progress with the Quills was to do Eidolon hunts.

Compare this to Heists, which require Toroids (which drop randomly in 3 different areas at a low rate) and Systems (which drop at fixed but low rates ONCE per heist) in order to progress.

The key difference between the two is that you could theoretically get sentient cores elsewhere whereas in Fortuna the only way to progress was to stand in Fortuna and farm Toroids until your fingers bleed. Sure you could do Profit-taker for a chance at systems and a Crisma, but it was often just faster to pack a Nekros and afk farm in one of the Toroid facilities and run Heist two with a high power weapon over and over.

That is where the systems fail to be something that could be used as a more broad progression system, it narrows the range of gameplay down to the point where the repetition becomes painfully obvious. The lack of diverse content causes players to finish their grind and then never return because of it, the only exception to this is people who run Eidolons for Arcanes (which are usually just a plat farming thing).

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The thing I currently love most about this game is Tridolons. That's kinda the main thing I'm grinding towards: I've unlocked 3 waybounds and it just feels good being able to slowly kill these things faster. 

Such a fun fight. Rushing to get the lures and charging them before you break the limbs! Oh I love the sound of those limbs snapping off hahahahhaha lol.

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28 minutes ago, Monolake said:

Yeah it was the best addition to the game in years but then they dropped the ball hard with Fortuna and its lackluster bosses

I like fortuna bosses

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6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Aside from a handful of other ways to get sentient cores the only way to meaningfully progress with the Quills was to do Eidolon hunts.

Compare this to Heists, which require Toroids (which drop randomly in 3 different areas at a low rate) and Systems (which drop at fixed but low rates ONCE per heist) in order to progress.

The key difference between the two is that you could theoretically get sentient cores elsewhere whereas in Fortuna the only way to progress was to stand in Fortuna and farm Toroids until your fingers bleed. Sure you could do Profit-taker for a chance at systems and a Crisma, but it was often just faster to pack a Nekros and afk farm in one of the Toroid facilities and run Heist two with a high power weapon over and over.

Toroid farming to rank up on standing is an activity that has nothing to do with the Orbs. It's a pure grind wall that has no relation with the end goal.

Contrast this with Eidolons and there is a big difference. The best way is to face the Eidolons themselves, which is great because it gives you experience that you will need later on, it gives focus which is great for operator progression, and cores that you need for the Quills so you can get a decent amp.

Having a decent amp and a stronger operator, then helps getting better and better, while you keep the grinding going to the point where you get the best amp, your Madurai with VS maxed etc.

The activities are in a way connected. If I had to change something, would be just the time gate because of standing limits, especially for low MR players.

Seems to me that this was thought through, and that is why it works and makes sense.

But Heists.. just a pure grind wall, there's really not much to it.

 

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Just now, Vit0Corleone said:

But Heists.. just a pure grind wall, there's really not much to it.

I'll raise a glass to that one.

...I STILL don't have all the systems I need to even rank up to rank 2.

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2 hours ago, IIDMOII said:

Absolutely detest the operator syndicate grinds.

I will never ever catch up because I refuse to farm the shards. I'd rather pull my own teeth.

I'm glad it got abandoned and remained self contained on earth.

Tying operator advancement and amp/arcane acquisition to these systems was wrong. 

Still waiting for a catchup mechanic before I bother.

 

I was lucky that I liked Eidolons... I really don't like that all of the operator focus is essentially locked behind them (or ESO with an eidolon lens... no thanks)

Would love to see eidolons be expanded, but also have them detached from systems that affect the rest of the game so that they are there for those that like them, but can be safely ignored for those that don't... Before I realized I liked doing hunts I completely ignored focus/amps as well.  Thus far it hasn't really mattered (and amps are so pitiful in their weakness) but if it becomes more integral like DE is hinting at in the future I'd hope there is a catch-up mechanic.

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2 hours ago, ranks21 said:

didn't we had a similar feeling when sentients were introduced?

No. When Second Dream happened we were all ready for this cool new faction, unaware that the would only be restricted to one planet for the next two years

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3 hours ago, (PS4)segulibanez65 said:

I just wish they'd get rid of the time-gate, make it so you have to start a bounty to spawn them, and cap the number of times per day the bounty can be ran to keep the farming in check (if that is an issue).  On top of that, I wish they'd add more eidolons that are even harder to kill, but without having that 48min time crunch.  Could be like a boss rush kind of mode, idk.  Would just love to see the system expanded upon further.  Though it would be nice if they'd fix the gd amps!  So sick of switching to a secondary to deal with voms... There is no way an x27 with fury should take 5-7 shots on a vom when thats roughly what it takes for the mote, but I digress

This is basically what i declared with Eidolon hunting really needed, namely a daily or even weekly cap on how many times you can do it, OR the time window they spawn is a window that you can start the bounty for them, so even if your on your third or fourth hunt, the eidolons would not despawn after 50 mins have passed, instead it would be a 30 minute time limit for any bounty instance instead, meaning one would have to reset at that point to try again, while the window is still opened. Though i like the fact Shock trooper was a interaction to further give reason to be used with Volt, the fact his shield is the only thing that works with amps these days was silly, that i kind of wish they did the reverse by keeping the adarza kavat interaction and remove the volt shield interaction, since it at the very least further pushes players to try something else then lock specific frames 100%.

It does not help plenty of interaction bses are still present, such as item/enemy radar gets disabled soon as you go in operator mode, when the animal radar of animal instinct should still apply, Plus leveling the operator should be the main source to improve and power up the operator, Outside of very situational trigger buffs, most of it is just survivability things with nothing that really improves the operator damage except building the amp and the arcanes, which you have to hunt said bosses or put down a lump of plat to get the arcanes without needing to fight the eidolons first (or the orb mother fights for vox solaris).

Throw in the fact that yeah, vomysts need a redesign & durability nerf, such as have them easily die to operator amp shots (Since VOID is suppose to be rather lethal poison to creatures like Sentinents for cripes sakes!) and will ignore that ridiculous ghost element which i know is intended for charging lures, but the orbs kind of already do they could just have a vacuum like effect which will pick up the orbs if they get close enough, instead of vacuuming the vomysts when they die.

There is a prime reason i make use of the Lega prism, since it makes it easy to just sweep kill vommies, then relying on the shaksraffun whatcha ma call it shotgun secondary fire, which can be super in consistent on harming voms, plus buff orbs that hydrolyst spawn is just as much of a ridiculous annoyance, since plenty would ignore it despite having one of those voms get buffed by it usually causes the hydrolyst to quickly start regening its shield (speaking of which can that interaction be changed so the EIDOLON cannot instant regen its shield and become immune to all damage by removing the latter and demand they need around 5 vomysts near them before they can spawn that b.s. of a burd frocking block barrier?), cause i sure as heck am not a fan of abilities that just instantly happen with no real windup to be ready for when they happen.

 

 

Edited by Avienas

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2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

When Second Dream happened we were

no just you, I sure as hell wasn't. don't know about the rest of the community since I cant read minds nor do I run a large clan.

Edited by ranks21

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45 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

no just you, I sure as hell wasn't. don't know about the rest of the community since I cant read minds nor do I run a large clan.

"You were an exception among the community. Though I can't speak for the community"

Mutually contradictory sentences

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