Out of curiosity from the players who chooses not to kill their lichs

[Flameduel]

I just have to understand what you guys are thinking, I hate debating a point without understanding the other point. I hear it is because they don't have the right mods and do not have to die. So specifically on this reason for not killing a lich: what is so wrong with dying in warframe? 

Dying in warframe has basically NO repercussions? I guess I can see if you are leveling a weapon, but leveling does not take THAT much time to warrant such a one track mind, (at least I think, please correct me if I am wrong I guess)

 

Edit: I do want to refer to my second post, it does talk about my feelings about how someone else explained why, and (also read his post he did a really good job of compiling most of the notable problems in a fine spot so respect to -AoN-CanoLathra-)

Edited November 9, 2019 by Flameduel

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

34 minutes ago, Flameduel said:

I just have to understand what you guys are thinking, I hate debating a point without understanding the other point. I hear it is because they don't have the right mods and do not have to die. So specifically on this reason for not killing a lich: what is so wrong with dying in warframe? 

Dying in warframe has basically NO repercussions? I guess I can see if you are leveling a weapon, but leveling does not take THAT much time to warrant such a one track mind, (at least I think, please correct me if I am wrong I guess)

It levels up the lich, which greatly increases their eHP and the enemy level without granting anything in return. Many players cannot deal with the increased difficulty

It makes little sense thematically. You put them in a vulnerable state, and then they kill you? Why? Nothing about this is explained.

It feels bad. You are getting punished for either not already having the mods you need, or, even if you have all 8 mods and all 3 murmurs, not having them in the right order. It is trial-and-error gameplay for the sole purpose of trial-and-error gameplay. Punishing players for things they cannot control feels bad, even if the punishment itself is rather minor. It's like being written up at your job for something you had no control over. It may never lead to discipline or termination, and has no direct effect on you or your paycheck, and takes almost no time out of your schedule, but it still feels wrong because the punishment was unrelated to your actions.

In Warframe, dying is typically a punishment for something the player has control over. Occasionally this isn't the case (having everyone else in your squad choose 'extract' at the last second, for instance), but, for the most part, if you die in Warframe, it's because you didn't have the right stuff for the mission. Either you didn't use the right elements, or you didn't bring the right frame, or you just don't have enough progression to beat that level of content. No matter what the reason, the player is responsible for not bringing the right stuff, or doing a mission they weren't ready for.

Now let's look at liches: You cannot 'be ready' for them, because you have to risk them spawning before you have all of the murmurs. You cannot 'bring the right stuff', because the game won't let you know what the right stuff is without running into them along the way. And not only does the game punish you for not having what you literally can't know you need by killing you, but by also making it harder for you to learn what you need.

The fact that killing them without knowing the combination has an extremely high chance of failure, and the fact that that failure increases the difficulty of killing them in the future, explains why most players won't engage with their lich directly until they have all three murmurs.

Edited November 9, 2019 by -AoN-CanoLathra-
grammar

[Test-995]

Dying isn't the real reason to not kill liches.

[__S0ck__]

I don't want to make the Lich level up, it gives them more damage and makes them harder to kill when actually trying out Requiem Mods

[Flameduel]

23 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

- snip -

I guess I'll go down each paragraph and give a counter arguement for each of them (if they apply of course)

Fair, I won't argue about difficulty with this, the lichs do get pretty hard that I have troubles with it even with my Nezha, so you got me here

This one you also got me in a way, but I am more thinking gameplay side and not logically. I would like them to make more sense, at the very least make it a downed state, but gameplay wise if death is was the only reason to not stab a boss, then I don't see why to do what is essentially protest in other player's game. you at least see my reasoning on this right?

I guess fair, though death in Warframe really isn't a punishment unless you died 4 times. Though usually in missions like this you die only once to the lich. Though I guess this ties into making the boss more difficult so in higher ranks you might die more. which I can at least see a fix being, they simply down you, which if I were to see someone criticizing this point with the idea of changing it to a down state, or give an idea I usually give them props for being more than just "Bad mechanic." But fair overall

I'll just refer to the previous and save you time

I like to think of pubs as a way to get help from other people who also needs help, think Kayle, were to someone join and choose not to fight because it would kill her (try not think too much on this analogy). if you were planning on doing just murmurs for a rank 1 lich, would it not be easier for everyone to go solo and just ignore the boss (or join a squad for their missions that don't have your lich controlled). I will say I am not the biggest advocate for solo play, I actually think people SHOULD play with a squad when they can, this is just a simple idea till they make a simple change like make it a downed state instead. think bandage fix. (Give credit where credit is due, DE is listening to us with just about daily hotfixs till they get it right which I think they are getting close, I am not hating on criticize about this as long as it is civilized mindful) 

This one kind of comes down to a little math, though I do see why this can somewhat be a problem if RNG with some other stuff was not so gregariously low (case and point, I still do not sadly have condition overload). I like to think of it as trying to turn the odds in your favor, let's say the first murmur was not the first slot, that means at this point you've at least tested others and you have a roughly 6 different options or even less for the first slot. Brute forcing the first spot before you get the second murmur can completely remove the third murmur (the longest murmur to complete) as a factor. Yes this is a little luck based, but it does help a little. TL;DR, Look at your odds and try think of the best way to make your odds better.

(I tried this by stabbing the boss, and then leaving the mission if it was wrong, having no murmur progress so you don't get your second one too soon and with one stab closer, also to not lose aggression from the guy, it may be slightly annoying for squads for you to leave, but at least you stabbed yours? idk just an idea)

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Flameduel
Shortened the post

[Dreadwire]

I lvl up my lich to 5.

And he has this skill to freeze and slow. And has annoying dodge skill.

Took 3 players to take down and almost 15 min of fight.

A good fight. But i don't want to do that again.

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Dreadwire

[Flameduel]

14 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Dying isn't the real reason to not kill liches.

I know it is not the MAIN reason, but this is the main reason I want to topic on first, it's good to see both sides of the argument for EACH topic individually to not merge topics, instead of all at once. and I thought this one specifically which I have seen as an excuse would be the easiest for the community to discuss without going to a war and to keep civil, you know? think like if I were to ask you "Did you do something wrong and did you tell your parents that you were?"

[T.Hoagie]

Why should they be FORCED TO DIE in the first place? that is dumb design. I don't know about you, but I actively attempt to not die even on frames that tend not to die, it doesn't matter if "dying has no real consequences" according to everyone screaming for nerfs as is. It means you screwed up, it means you failed and it feels bad unless it happens under stupid circumstances that you can just laugh at.

Example, the last time I died on my Chroma Prime, I fat fingered the wrong key while trying to reactivate his elemental ward and Vex armor. The Eidolon I was fighting stomped on my head and took me out in one shot. That was my mistake and just silly.

But I HAVE to crash head first into this Lich and die if I don't have their crap RNG non-puzzle solved?, and then make it harder for me to deal with as I try my guess my way through?. Hell, no. This is supposed to be based off of Shadow of Mordor, and even if an Orc was immune to almost all your tricks, game play got to be the major factor in your success or losses, that is not the case here.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, Flameduel said:

I just have to understand what you guys are thinking, I hate debating a point without understanding the other point. I hear it is because they don't have the right mods and do not have to die. So specifically on this reason for not killing a lich: what is so wrong with dying in warframe? 

Dying in warframe has basically NO repercussions? I guess I can see if you are leveling a weapon, but leveling does not take THAT much time to warrant such a one track mind, (at least I think, please correct me if I am wrong I guess)

 

So let me get this straight...awesome Old-School Manic Finishers (which you could combat, btw) got nerfed into irrelevance, but you can’t understand why DE has so cheapened frame death (forced suicide) that they feel it’s okay to slap us in the face with it repeatedly because they can’t find a better way to make the Lich a threat?

It is insulting game design.  Not only has DE stacked RnG upon RnG, but DE has also railroaded us into repeated suicide animations and called it “challenging” or “power inversion”.

It is Requiem Roulette and nothing else.  Just go repeatedly die like a moron.

It has nothing to do with combat or skill or preparation or handicaps or how strong your Lich is or grinding to discover the sequence.

I’m astounded this decision made it past concept.  I daresay it was either the easy way out or the programmers simply didn’t have the skill or imagination after 2+ years to develop something more game-design and lore appropriate.

 Until changed, I want no parts of it.

It is an insult.

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Test-995]

2 minutes ago, Flameduel said:

I know it is not the MAIN reason, but this is the main reason I want to topic on first, it's good to see both sides of the argument for EACH topic individually to not merge topics, instead of all at once. and I thought this one specifically which I have seen as an excuse would be the easiest for the community to discuss without going to a war and to keep civil, you know? think like if I were to ask you "Did you do something wrong and did you tell your parents that you were?"

Whatever, i never felt anything about dying (mostly because i'll die like 20/day, cuz reasons), but energy reset thing is pretty annoying tbh.

Even when i got 500 energies, it'll be back to 75.

[Yamazuki]

I personally haven't noticed any change in difficulty between a Lich being level 1 and level 5. All that I noticed is the Lich level increases the level of the Grineer, but even then, that depends on who's hosting, Even if you had your Lich at level 1, if you join a pub Survival for example, the enemies could still be level 150 if you join one in progress, making it pointless to not level your Lich specifically to keep the Grineer at a lower level unless you're soloing.

[Wolfglaive]

No idea. I actively seek to level mine, since I play with at least one friend, and increased levels means more overlap of starmap nodes for better concurrent progress and potentially both of us getting one attempt in the same mission. They're easy to down for us, even at level 5, and when someone doesn't kill their lich, it takes up the invasion slot and is pretty obnoxious, especially if it happens early, so I figure there oughta be some kind of timeout if they've been forced to take a knee multiple times but no one comes to attempt an execution (I don't like running with PUGs, but he sometimes does). 

[Flameduel]

2 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

-snip-

I will defend players on this part, the lich does become a bigger bullet sponge, I have friend who has been seeing 10-20 damage on some of their more favored weapons. so I not specifically saying to nerf them, more that if they don't want to stab to avoid making the lich himself harder, I can at least see the reasoning

[Yamazuki]

2 minutes ago, Flameduel said:

I will defend players on this part, the lich does become a bigger bullet sponge, I have friend who has been seeing 10-20 damage on some of their more favored weapons. so I not specifically saying to nerf them, more that if they don't want to stab to avoid making the lich himself harder, I can at least see the reasoning

Some people are saying they don't level their Lich specifically because level 100-160 Grineer is too difficult; but your Lich level in regards to the Grineer level only matters when you're hosting. If you are pugging and you aren't hosting, then your Lich level won't matter. I've had several times where I just got my Lich and joined an in progress mission that was already 100+. The opposite is also true, the first day I had my Lich at level 5, but I was with a random group with someone else hosting the runs and the Grineer was at level 50 the entire time.

Not only that but how likely is it that a pug group has no one at all that can do damage anyways? Even 4 people tickling a Lich should be able to handle it. Just don't melee the Lich, as it seems they only kill targets that try to melee it.

[Zekkii]

2 minutes ago, Flameduel said:

but why? what is there to gain?

I mean they have a point.  If players can't handle high level Liches then they shouldn't be doing these missions and intentionally blocking players who can. 

[Flameduel]

1 minute ago, Yamazuki said:

-snip-

I feel like if there was no death penalty, and just a bleed out punishment, it would be much more willing to be stabbed? I cannot say but I've rarely had problem with the actual killing of the lich in multiples. but that is just me.

[Flameduel]

1 minute ago, Zekkii said:

I mean they have a point.  If players can't handle high level Liches then they shouldn't be doing these missions and intentionally blocking players who can. 

I am just going to quote myself quick if you would mind.

 

36 minutes ago, Flameduel said:

I like to think of pubs as a way to get help from other people who also needs help, think Kayle, were to someone join and choose not to fight because it would kill her (try not think too much on this analogy). if you were planning on doing just murmurs for a rank 1 lich, would it not be easier for everyone to go solo and just ignore the boss (or join a squad for their missions that don't have your lich controlled). I will say I am not the biggest advocate for solo play, I actually think people SHOULD play with a squad when they can, this is just a simple idea till they make a simple change like make it a downed state instead. think bandage fix.

It's not that I disagree with him, I am just asking him to not be as aggressive about it, that's really all

[Aldain]

30 minutes ago, T.Hoagie said:

Why should they be FORCED TO DIE in the first place?

This is the counter question.

Shadow of Mordor/War where DE lifted this concept from did not kill you for attempting to kill your nemesis, it killed you for LOSING to your nemesis.

Here you BEAT the nemesis, attempt to kill them, AND THEN DIE DESPITE WINNING THE OVERALL BATTLE (unless you luck out and have the right password).

Then the Lich levels up from you BEATING IT IN COMBAT.

The entire thing is just asinine design, even in old school arcade games which were designed to drain quarters from people you often would only die because your skills weren't up to par. Here you could literally beat the Lich with 0 damage taken and still get killed just trying to drive it off. The whole system is completely backwards from normal logical game design, and not in an innovative or good way.

[3rdpig]

Because I don't want to. 

I'm actually enjoying leaving his sorry ass kneeling waiting for the mercy stroke as I stroll out of a mission. Killing his thralls, collecting murmurs while keeping him in a constant state of impotent rage is rather pleasing and it's the way I want to do it. Is it taking me longer? Sure, but I don't care. I'm in this for fun, not to rip through the content as fast as possible. But if that's they way you want to play, more power to you.

I'm enjoying this solo, so there's no need to triggered.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

14 minutes ago, Zekkii said:

I mean they have a point.  If players can't handle high level Liches then they shouldn't be doing these missions and intentionally blocking players who can. 

It’s public matchmaking none of us have a say about how the next individual wants to play 

[Flameduel]

1 minute ago, 3rdpig said:

Because I don't want to. 

I'm actually enjoying leaving his sorry ass kneeling waiting for the mercy stroke as I stroll out of a mission. Killing his thralls, collecting murmurs while keeping him in a constant state of impotent rage is rather pleasing and it's the way I want to do it. Is it taking me longer? Sure, but I don't care. I'm in this for fun, not to rip through the content as fast as possible. But if that's they way you want to play, more power to you.

I'm enjoying this solo, so there's no need to triggered.

nope more power to you

Edited November 9, 2019 by Flameduel

[T.Hoagie]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

This is the counter question.

Shadow of Mordor/War where DE lifted this concept from did not kill you for attempting to kill your nemesis, it killed you for LOSING to your nemesis.

Here you BEAT the nemesis, attempt to kill them, AND THEN DIE DESPITE WINNING THE OVERALL BATTLE (unless you luck out and have the right password).

Then the Lich levels up from you BEATING IT IN COMBAT.

The entire thing is just asinine design, even in old school arcade games which were designed to drain quarters from people you often would only die because your skills weren't up to par. Here you could literally beat the Lich with 0 damage taken and still get killed just trying to drive it off. The whole system is completely backwards from normal logical game design, and not in an innovative or good way.

Considering I once spent around 30 dollars in an arcade to beat this one Marvel Beat-Em up game as a kid, yeah, the problem was my lack of skill to handle the situation at the time.

I don't die very often in Warframe, usually its a fluke, or like earlier I wasn't paying close enough attention while trying to hack a terminal on my Vauban Prime. Most things cannot kill me, cause I have gotten skilled enough and fluent enough in the game to know when I should back off.

People scream about room clearers like Mesa, but she's a glass cannon. Especially mine. If I don't actively attempt to keep things from her, she could get destroyed quite easily.

But again, it all comes back to that factor. This crap with the liches is just dumb, its bad design to the core. And it seems to punish EVERYONE involved, and for what?, are these Kuva weapons that good?. I mean if they are god tier, please someone let me know, cause I have to wonder what the point of all this crap RNG and guess work is really for.

It sure as hell can't be good for the life of the game.

[enemystand]

i used to leave the lich alive till they added the option to get murmurs and revealing requiem mods when attempt  to finish the lich

and now i always kill the lich when he stop spawning minions, but i'm questioning the efficiency of doing it, if you try to kill the lich you gain murmur but you lose aggro and wont see the lich again in like 5-7 missions, if he is full mad you will se him in every mission and probably get more murmurs that way than trying to kill it once every 5-7 missions.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, T.Hoagie said:

I don't die very often in Warframe, usually its a fluke, or like earlier I wasn't paying close enough attention while trying to hack a terminal on my Vauban Prime. Most things cannot kill me, cause I have gotten skilled enough and fluent enough in the game to know when I should back off.

Same here, I actually have been able to outlast several Nidus and Inaros players as Excalibur Umbra by being smart with my engagements and using my CC wisely.

Overall my core complaint isn't the death itself, it is that the death has no input from the player.

When a player goes down in Warframe it usually is one of two reasons, you messed up and stood in crossfire, or an enemy grenade decided it wanted to deal 12 million damage randomly.

[Flameduel]

1 minute ago, enemystand said:

i used to leave the lich alive till they added the option to get murmurs and revealing requiem mods when attempt  to finish the lich

and now i always kill the lich when he stop spawning minions, but i'm questioning the efficiency of doing it, if you try to kill the lich you gain murmur but you lose aggro and wont see the lich again in like 5-7 missions, if he is full mad you will se him in every mission and probably get more murmurs that way than trying to kill it once every 5-7 missions.

I wondered that to and it made me think to go into solo missions and farm murmurs off him, I don't need help killing thralls that's why I would choose to solo instead. If I don't need help stabbing my lich, then I won't force people to help me stab thralls right? but mostly a theory, I have no tests to back it up