illegitimate plat problems still at hand.

[KnightKrawlur]

On 2019-11-10 at 12:38 AM, Atsia said:

I mean, what else would you have DE do? They can't let the fake plat stay within circulation, and they don't want to remove the items you bought with the plat, for issues like you using the plat to buy any of the boosters, then using what you get from the boosters (such as the resource boosters) to build something. You want them to remove fully built and forma-ed frames or weapons, or rivens that you used Kuva farmed off the illegal plat to roll? How do you propose DE recoups the loss that's now gonna be in their books? They're still a business that needs to make money.

I cannot speak to every case, but for me the removal of the platinum caused a negative balance on my account, which triggered an automatic suspension.

What DE could do is, let me login to the game and sell something to get my account positive.  But since I couldn't login my only option was to pay them.  Which I think is a poor way to treat your customers.  And since I've given more money for one year of game play than I ever paid in monthly fees for a non "free to play" game I am a paying customer.

[Lateralus]

I just experienced this today. Decided to come back after about a year break. Account was already locked for negative platinum, -1.5k or something like that.

I was completely surprised with the treatment. I've only purchased plat from the official website and used my plat primarily to buy prime sets as I don't have the time to farm them.

I wonder how the support ticket will be handled, I see no reason to pay for additional platinum due to someone else cheating the system. In the worst case, I just end 6 years of gameplay.

[(XBOX)CultLordKuva]

On 2019-11-09 at 2:08 AM, KnightKrawlur said:

If the removal of the platinum makes your account go negative you cannot login so the only way to correct the balance is to purchase platinum from DE.

Have had this happen, this is why I no longer trade if at all possible.  Have been told if it happens again my account will be permanently banned.

 

Can confirm. 

 

Also had my account pushed back to a point where I was forced to pay in $50. 

Turns out the IP was somewhat tracked and a friend overseas that I foolishly game shared with (Xbox), had made several trades with several people whom also got handed a hard punishment. 

I was salty AF for awhile. Very salty. but I had shared my info with this guy like a yutz. So I deserved it. 

I left for about 6 monthes and found nothing else out there peaked my interest as much as warframe. I ended up caving and paying into the game to return. 

Initially I was banned for till 2099 or some jazz. But after a ton of support tickets and pleas the team finally found the culprit. In the end, I love this game enough to pay in. I shoukdnt ever have to. But I did, because for five years this game has brought me joy. 

 

I do feel for you however. If you're not able to have disposable income. Or if you're newer and have nnot had time with the game. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by (XB1)Wham A Hand

[No1NParticular31]

This hasn't happened to me but then again I have only sold a couple of low price items. Most of my trades are item(s) for item(s). I do agree that DE does have some leeway to protect it's interests including banning and even prosecuting the owners of the hacker/chargeback accounts for fraud, I do not think they legally have a right to extort money from innocent victims of the scammer. While I am also not a lawyer I do think that banning an account and forcing the victim to pay would constitute extortion under the law, at least in the US.

Extortion means to obtain especially money or other property from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power. Banning an account and demanding money is a form of intimidation and I have little doubt a judge would agree. While the TOS probably has some clause in it that prevents players from suing them, a case of extortion would be a CRIMINAL case and no TOS clause can prevent a criminal suit. The player would not get their account back, nor would they see any monetary gain, but if found guilty the company could be forced to pay fines, and other potential consequences. The real question is, would anyone want to actually pursue a case like this, or just go play a different game? If it ever happens to me, I just might.

I do think DE should be careful with this practice and make sure only the guilty are punished.

Edited November 17, 2019 by No1NParticular31

[Thegreatgrandmarjuganaut]

50 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Extortion means to obtain especially money or other property from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power. Banning an account and demanding money is a form of intimidation and I have little doubt a judge would agree. While the TOS probably has some clause in it that prevents players from suing them, a case of extortion would be a CRIMINAL case and no TOS clause can prevent a criminal suit. 

Technically it wouldnt be considerd intimidation since they are giving you an option to pay money to regain access to a service (the game) and because the TOS permits termination and removal of your access to your account it would technically bypass the consept of intimidation through the loss off an account since thye technically own and have full power over the account. This being said i do agree that what DE is doing is quite dodgy and could possibly be illegal or atleast verging on being illegal, id recomend looking at NotLampRey's post on the first page of this topic since he had some intresting stuff to say in the hidden tabs :D.

[No1NParticular31]

46 minutes ago, Thegreatgrandmarjuganaut said:

Technically it wouldnt be considerd intimidation since they are giving you an option to pay money to regain access to a service (the game) and because the TOS permits termination and removal of your access to your account it would technically bypass the consept of intimidation through the loss off an account since thye technically own and have full power over the account. This being said i do agree that what DE is doing is quite dodgy and could possibly be illegal or atleast verging on being illegal, id recomend looking at NotLampRey's post on the first page of this topic since he had some intresting stuff to say in the hidden tabs :D.

I get what you are saying and if they just banned the account then that would be the end of it. Demanding payment essentially in recompense from a non-guilty party is where I see the line being crossed. They basically say "We just took years worth of stuff you spent time collecting and BUYING from us through no fault of your own, and if you want it back you WILL pay us". If they had even a shred of evidence of wrong doing then maybe.

I actually did read it and it was interesting. However, the question and response by the lawyers was based on this being a civil case in other words a Player v DE suit. What I am talking about is a criminal matter or a State/Government v DE case. I would be highly interested in what @notlamprey lawyer friends' take would be on if this practice could or could not be considered extortion and how this might go as a criminal case if so. I do know the TOS has lots of clauses designed to at least try to protect them from civil suits, but there is no such thing as a TOS that can prevent a criminal case if a criminal act has been committed. If a TOS could do that then people could get away with Ponzi schemes using the right TOS. "Hey they agreed to me robbing them, it's buried right there in the TOS". LOL. As mentioned I am not a lawyer and wholly admit I could be completely wrong.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by No1NParticular31

[Thegreatgrandmarjuganaut]

49 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

I get what you are saying and if they just banned the account then that would be the end of it. Demanding payment essentially in recompense from a non-guilty party is where I see the line being crossed. They basically say "We just took years worth of stuff you spent time collecting and BUYING from us through no fault of your own, and if you want it back you WILL pay us". If they had even a shred of evidence of wrong doing then maybe.

I actually did read it and it was interesting. However, the question and response by the lawyers was based on this being a civil case in other words a Player v DE suit. What I am talking about is a criminal matter or a State/Government v DE case. I would be highly interested in what @notlamprey lawyer friends' take would be on if this practice could or could not be considered extortion and how this might go as a criminal case if so. I do know the TOS has lots of clauses designed to at least try to protect them from civil suits, but there is no such thing as a TOS that can prevent a criminal case if a criminal act has been committed. If a TOS could do that then people could get away with Ponzi schemes using the right TOS. "Hey they agreed to me robbing them, it's buried right there in the TOS". LOL. As mentioned I am not a lawyer and wholly admit I could be completely wrong.

Sorry that i didnt speicifcy but i was simply pointing out @notlamprey 's post i thought you may find it intresting based on the relation to the topic, rather than using it to disprove your point.

On the topic of what them doing being illegal, i simply inferd that since all content on the account was technically ownd by DE and thus never ownd by us, meaning they were never obliged to give us access and the monotizing of gaining access to the account would be fully legal, however i believe a seperat contract (or TOS agreement) may be required at that point. Basically all the things on your account would be considerd an asset of DE rather than yourself since when you pay for things or work towards them they would be considerd services rather than objects or assets since they are an intangible thing which are technically fully based on the tangible object (that being the Warframe servers) which are a tangible object ownd by DE. Basically all content you have on your accounts would be considerd ownd by DE and so since you are paying or working towards those things, paying to regain access to those things would possibly fit under the same consept. I could be comepletely wrong ofc but it obviously depends on the laws, how they are interpreted and any external factors such as agreements between the player and DE. Thank you for your input, im not saying you are wrong or that i am right, im just trying to give my input towards the situation as i assume you are, so thank you :D.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Thegreatgrandmarjuganaut

[cmacq]

9 hours ago, Lateralus said:

I just experienced this today. Decided to come back after about a year break. Account was already locked for negative platinum, -1.5k or something like that.

I was completely surprised with the treatment. I've only purchased plat from the official website and used my plat primarily to buy prime sets as I don't have the time to farm them.

I wonder how the support ticket will be handled, I see no reason to pay for additional platinum due to someone else cheating the system. In the worst case, I just end 6 years of gameplay.

Well you're either completely full of S#&$ or your account was hacked. Good luck if you're innocent.

[Lateralus]

46 minutes ago, cmacq said:

Well you're either completely full of S#&$ or your account was hacked. Good luck if you're innocent.

I don't see how that would happen, I never share my credentials with anyone and the only PC I've ever logged in from is the same one fro 6 years. If someone tried to access my account from a different site, shouldn't I get at least a note from DE? Most companies have that.

Whats even more confusing is the negative ammount. I used plat primarily to buy prime sets so I was the one giving plat away most of the time, and my plat was legit. I had about 1k when I took a break, having a -1500 would mean that for some reason 2.5k plat was charged back, which Is not possible by myself as I did not sell that many items. Maybe in a few hundred plat, but certainly not a 1k+

Edited November 17, 2019 by Lateralus

[SteRage]

First up, I would like to say Thank You to support for the quick response and how quickly the issue was resolved.

 

This happened last month on Sat 5th (was solved that Monday).

Have been playing since 01/01/2016 (yes created account on New Years Day), got 75% off on the first week (have had it 2 more times since), so I was never really short on plat from purchasing it (back then) and trading Prime Weapon/Frame sets.

Have never, ever, EVER, touched that fluster muck of the Riven market and never will.

Have taken breaks from the game here and there (sometimes up to 3 months+), came back and played for a about week then took another small break (2 weeks).

Had watched the DevStream 131 the night before and logged in on Saturday to find the Negative Platinum message.

(changed the order of the email and redacted links/name)

Spoiler

WARFRAME Support Team <support@digitalextremes.zendesk.com>

Tue 08/10/2019 01:49

You

##- Please type your reply above this line -##

Your request (redacted) has now been resolved. To reopen this request, reply to this email or click the link below:


If you are having another problem please open a NEW ticket at the link below.
 

 

SteRage

Oct 5, 15:39 EDT

Hello, I have not logged into Warframe for a while (2 wks).
Today 05/10/19 I tried to login and got the Negative Platinum message.
I have not purchased any platinum or have made any trades for a very long time.

 

[DE]Faye (WARFRAME Support)

Oct 7, 04:04 EDT

Hello SteRage,

Thank you for contacting us. You were found to have received a large amount of Platinum and/or gifts from a known black market Platinum re-seller, who has been permanently banned from the game for this activity. Because the Platinum you received was fraudulently obtained, it was necessary to remove it from your account. For any gifts you might have received in the same manner, the item(s) were also removed from your inventory.

We attempted to identify and reverse as many black market transactions on your account as possible. If you believe that the transactions listed below represent all the Platinum/gifts that you have purchased from the black market, you should not notice your Platinum balance being affected any further. However, if you have made other black market transactions in the past, future investigations could result in those trades/gifts being reversed, and the Platinum value being removed from your account.

2017-01-15 05:13 GMT - You received 850 Platinum from the Platinum re-seller account REDACTED

Note, purchasing in-game items from other players for cash is a violation of the Terms of Use/EULA and your account could be banned from the game for engaging in such activities. You are being given another opportunity to play, however, because you did not have enough Platinum to cover the full amount that was removed -- your Platinum balance is now in the negatives.

Your current Platinum balance is -734.

To restore access to your account, you will need to purchase enough Platinum (from a legitimate source) to bring your balance out of the negatives.

As a courtesy to you, we are offering to reverse any cosmetic-only purchases that we find on your account. Any Platinum restored to your account will help to reduce your negative Platinum balance. Please let us know if you want us to proceed.

Please be aware that if you purchase Platinum using a Steam DLC Pack, we will need to put you in contact with one of our Billing CSRs who will assist you with applying the purchase to your account.

For future reference, we strongly suggest that you avoid unbalanced trades or trades that appear to be "for free" as these are often connected to compromised accounts or other fraudulent activity. Unless the contest or giveaway is from an official Warframe partner, you cannot trust where the Platinum is coming from.

Please note, if you are found to have participated in black market activity again in the future, your account will be permanently suspended from the game with no chance to restore your Platinum balance and continue playing.

As stated in our Terms of Use, you as the account holder are solely responsible for resolving the negative Platinum balance on your account.

Thank you for your understanding.

 

SteRage

Oct 7, 11:09 EDT

"As a courtesy to you, we are offering to reverse any cosmetic-only purchases that we find on your account. Any Platinum restored to your account will help to reduce your negative Platinum balance. Please let us know if you want us to proceed".

Please proceed.

 

[DE]Faye (WARFRAME Support)

Oct 7, 20:49 EDT

Hello there, SteRage!

We have now reversed as many cosmetic purchases on your account as possible, which has helped in bringing you out of your negative Platinum balance.

Your current Platinum balance is 6.

Please also note that if you are found to have been involved in black market activity again, your account will be banned from the game.

Thank you for your understanding.

 

2017-01-15......... 2017 ???????,  why did it take so long to take action ????

And I've never bought Plat from Platinum Reseller.

This makes me think I sold something to this person and his account went Rogue, either it got hacked or he sold his account.

Also only thing I can think of costing 850 Plat, is maybe Ember Prime Set (at one point it was 1500 Plat back then).

I don't buy plat now, haven't in a really long time, my money gets spent on TennoGen skins. 

Luckily I had still a few sets of prime weapon/frames to trade for plat, to get back the cosmetics/colour palettes that I lost.

Edited November 17, 2019 by SteRage

[Thegreatgrandmarjuganaut]

7 hours ago, SteRage said:

First up, I would like to say Thank You to support for the quick response and how quickly the issue was resolved.

 

This happened last month on Sat 5th (was solved that Monday).

Have been playing since 01/01/2016 (yes created account on New Years Day), got 75% off on the first week (have had it 2 more times since), so I was never really short on plat from purchasing it (back then) and trading Prime Weapon/Frame sets.

Have never, ever, EVER, touched that fluster muck of the Riven market and never will.

Have taken breaks from the game here and there (sometimes up to 3 months+), came back and played for a about week then took another small break (2 weeks).

Had watched the DevStream 131 the night before and logged in on Saturday to find the Negative Platinum message.

Intresting to see that all they had to do was reverse cosmetic purchases for you, however i find it strange that you would end up in that situation, i supose that its possible they actually have a problem with detecting illegitimate plat and so it may be possible that some detections of it are incorrect? Ether way the fact tha they give the possibility to revert cosmetic purchases to offset the negative plat balence makes me beleive that i was correct in saying that it depends on the person who you have dealing with the ticket on the other side. Thanks for the info :D.

[Lateralus]

A short update from me. Support was able to fix my negative platinum and reveret it back to it's original value prior to my account being hacked. Unfortunately, From what I can see I've lost almost all prime Warframes that I've had and also Warframes from quest rewards (titatnia,nidus,gara, etc.). I'm still waiting for support to check if there is anything they can do. If not, then I'm not sure if it's even worth it to continue, as many of the primes are no longer obtainable.

[notlamprey]

For those of you who had cosmetic items and other things removed, did support provide you with a list of the items they removed from your accounts?

It may not be standard procedure to do that, but I know of at least one case where support did it.

[SteRage]

20 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

For those of you who had cosmetic items and other things removed, did support provide you with a list of the items they removed from your accounts?

It may not be standard procedure to do that, but I know of at least one case where support did it.

They didn't provide a list, I had to guess other cosmetic items from the ones I found obvious when I looked.

Nyx Deluxe Set, 2 colour palettes, and 1 or 2 holster styles was all I noticed.

Approx 400p from the items above, I have no clue about the other approx 400p worth off cosmetics, which is kinda ok, I must have never used whatever the other cosmetics were to notice.

Edited November 18, 2019 by SteRage

[notlamprey]

1 hour ago, SteRage said:

They didn't provide a list, I had to guess other cosmetic items from the ones I found obvious when I looked.

Nyx Deluxe Set, 2 colour palettes, and 1 or 2 holster styles was all I noticed.

Approx 400p from the items above, I have no clue about the other approx 400p worth off cosmetics, which is kinda ok, I must have never used whatever the other cosmetics were to notice.

I wonder if you could ask them for a list of what was removed, because it would at least give you some direction to determine what you'd want to get back. 

You might also be surprised how generous the community is, provided people could get some verification that you had stuff and it was removed.

[DesertEagle1280]

Here's the issue with them not taking back the plat - it incentivizes the scammers to scam more...

Let's say Scammer account A uses a stolen credit card to buy 4000 plat.  They post "Cheap WF Plat for sale, $20 for 2000 plat" or whatever on their website.  Scummy player B goes and buys their plat there instead of from DE.  Then in game, Scammer account A trades a "godly [cough]" riven for 2000 plat to deliver the purchase to their customer, Scummy B.  Then their purchase gets nuked.  Now how do we know if account B belongs to Scummy B or Naive Niceplayer who just wanted to sell some stuff? DE doesn't - so they do the only thing they can err on the side of punishing the potentially Scummy B.  Sure they may wind up punishing Naive Niceplayer, but otherwise if it was really Scummy B and they let him keep the plat, he'll keep his ill gotten gains and look to buy outside DE in the future, perpetuating the problem and providing a ready market for Scammer A.

[Thegreatgrandmarjuganaut]

1 hour ago, DesertEagle1280 said:

Here's the issue with them not taking back the plat - it incentivizes the scammers to scam more...

Let's say Scammer account A uses a stolen credit card to buy 4000 plat.  They post "Cheap WF Plat for sale, $20 for 2000 plat" or whatever on their website.  Scummy player B goes and buys their plat there instead of from DE.  Then in game, Scammer account A trades a "godly [cough]" riven for 2000 plat to deliver the purchase to their customer, Scummy B.  Then their purchase gets nuked.  Now how do we know if account B belongs to Scummy B or Naive Niceplayer who just wanted to sell some stuff? DE doesn't - so they do the only thing they can err on the side of punishing the potentially Scummy B.  Sure they may wind up punishing Naive Niceplayer, but otherwise if it was really Scummy B and they let him keep the plat, he'll keep his ill gotten gains and look to buy outside DE in the future, perpetuating the problem and providing a ready market for Scammer A.

I think we all understand this, however it still dousnt cause me to believe innocents should be punishd in the way they are, i simply believe they can go about it in a better way and consider the consept of being innocent untill proven guilty especially when considering that they may be loyal players.