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Brozime: Warframe Academia - Condition Overload Nerfs

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Given the changes t ocondition overload, and how melee works now? I figure the Math Guy in the warframe community posting a Math Video would be helpful.

 

 

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Huh, the math is interesting, and the solutions suggested at the end buffed it without going to the old absurd multiplier.

I'm going to assume since the suggested math isn't just undoing the changes that people hate it however.

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So in other words, this, posted by Megan in the U26 update thread?

Quote

70357b78c5c2cba9bad1df0dc9a95525.png 

Designed to mislead people into thinking that the nerf was fairly minor and the mod is actually stronger with few status effects than it was before.

Edited by SordidDreams
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6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Huh, the math is interesting, and the solutions suggested at the end buffed it without going to the old absurd multiplier.

I'm going to assume since the suggested math isn't just undoing the changes that people hate it however.

Before it used to be 1.6^n (n being number of status effects on target with no cap)   Now its 2.2*n, capped a n=3. 

CO made status weapons on par with crit weapons. Now Status weapons are S#&$ compared to crit weapons straight up. 

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3 minutes ago, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

Before it used to be 1.6^n (n being number of status effects on target with no cap)   Now its 2.2*n, capped a n=3. 

CO made status weapons on par with crit weapons. Now Status weapons are S#&$ compared to crit weapons straight up. 

Imagine thinking status focus melee weapons are in a bad spot. That being said, several weapons got buffs that made them capable for hybrid builds. Man, the degree of misinformation spread by toobers...

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So in other words Old CO gave you 258% damage at 2 sp. And 412% dam at 3 sp. New CO gives you 237% dam at 3 sp and is capped there. DE S#&$ all over status weapons hard. 

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3 minutes ago, Diavoros said:

Man, the degree of misinformation spread by toobers...

70357b78c5c2cba9bad1df0dc9a95525.png

12 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

So in other words, this, posted by Megan in the U26 update thread?

Total lie, designed to mislead people into thinking that the nerf was fairly minor and the mod is actually stronger with few status effects than it was before.

Miss information by tubers you say @Diavoros? Really?

Edited by (XB1)SixGunLove
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2 minutes ago, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

So in other words Old CO gave you 258% damage at 2 sp. And 412% dam at 3 sp. New CO gives you 237% dam at 3 sp and is capped there. DE S#&$ all over status weapons hard. 

Do recall that in the other thread, I demonstrated that a pure Status build, which even had room in it for Life Strike, utterly destroyed level 160 Corrupted heavies.

 

The nerf is not devastating.

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

Now its 2.2*n, capped a n=3. 

Is it still capped? The dev workshop mentioned it, but the update post didn't, nor does the mod description, and the wiki lists status effect multipliers beyond 3. Haven't been able to test myself, yet, but I'd think that kind of major change would be more prominent somewhere in those.

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3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

The nerf is not devastating.

For gun blades I beg to differ sir. 

Edited by (XB1)SixGunLove
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3 minutes ago, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

Miss information by tubers you say @Diavoros? Really?

I edited that post slightly, btw, because it's technically not a falsehood, it's just comparing apples to oranges while deliberately not explaining the difference.

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1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

I edited that post slightly, btw, because it's technically not a falsehood, it's just comparing apples to oranges while deliberately not explaining the difference.

Regardless of how I feel about Brozime. He's right on many levels tho. 

Edited by (XB1)SixGunLove
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3 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Is it still capped? The dev workshop mentioned it, but the update post didn't, nor does the mod description, and the wiki lists status effect multipliers beyond 3. Haven't been able to test myself, yet, but I'd think that kind of major change would be more prominent somewhere in those.

As far as I know it isn't capped.

If it were there would be no reason for that graph posted from the update notes to go past 3 on the new side.

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10 minutes ago, Diavoros said:

Imagine thinking status focus melee weapons are in a bad spot. That being said, several weapons got buffs that made them capable for hybrid builds.

Status weapons and hybrid weaps are completely different tho. 

 

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3 minutes ago, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

For gun blades I beg to differ sir. 

Eh, I'm feeling the nerf with my Sarpa. I'm also feeling the combo changes. Previously I just had to hold down the melee button to get a nice reliable quick shot + charged shot combo, now that requires two different button presses if stationary and three if moving. It's now way easier to accidentally do useless melee swipe attacks with the thing than it used to be.

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Brozime writes stuff like:

 

100 x (1 + 1.65) = 265 + (265 x .9) = ...

 

While I understand what he's doing - the intention is to communicate calculations chained together - that's just bad.

Edited by schilds
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45 minutes ago, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

Before it used to be 1.6^n (n being number of status effects on target with no cap)   Now its 2.2*n, capped a n=3.

Would people stop saying its capped? Its not. That is what was initially said in the melee workshop, but instead they merely changed the way it was calculated.
I'll repeat; The current version of CO is not capped

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57 minutes ago, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

For gun blades I beg to differ sir. 

EDIT: Apologies, I shouldn't be exasperated.

 

 Deschain, yes, the mod combos have been nerfed but the weapon base stats have been pretty hugely increased, and you seem really agitated and eager to lecture PC players despite not having the update yet.

 

I'll get back to you after shoving another couple of Forma into my Redeemer Prime and seeing how it looks. I've basically never bothered with the thing. Also, these are the changes to its stats:

Redeemer Prime
Damage increased from 80 to 212
Range increased from 0.5 to 1.75
Status Chance increased from 28% to 30%
Critical Chance increased from 16% to 24%

 

Please recall that that other thread was the OP wailing about how the sky is falling and how all melee builds have to be the same now to even approach a shadow of their former power...and then people came in and demonstrated that that's not remotely true? Yeah, the highest damage output builds have been nerfed because the cheesiest mod combinations have had their numerical interactions changed. The sky is not falling. I effortlessly beat the OP's suggested mechanics test using a Zaw built for pure Status, no Blood Rush, no Amalgam Organ Shatter, and with one mod slot dedicated to Life Strike. The OP of that thread was basically suggesting that people wouldn't even be able to do it at all, bless him.

 

Finally....no, I don't think DE should balance the game around level 200+ enemies. The weird idea that multiple hour Endless mission endurance runs are and should be the endgame of Warframe should die in a fire, it's already warped mechanical balance too much.

 

 

 

 

In a post-script...you know that some of your mechanical understanding/assumption here is off? The poster above me is right, CO does not in fact appear to be capped at 3 Status effects. It's still had its interaction with other damage mods nerfed.

Condition Overload - Now uses a stacking multiplier based on how many Status Effects are on the target at 120% damage per Status.
During this whole Melee rebalance, Condition Overload remained a persistent outlier. Since launch, it has had an unintended stacking mechanic, that nothing else uses in the game: it grew exponentially, making it too volatile to balance. We know there’s nothing worse than ‘how can you call this unintended’, so let’s explain the history: initially it did the stacking on final damage, which, as you know from previous changes, we have been trying to move away from. This is because this type of stacking makes for very hard to control damage progression, and tends to be very confusing as to which damage, Melee/Proc etc, applies where. This new version of the mod makes Condition Overload’s damage multiplication become equal to Pressure Point when the enemy has 1 Status applied, better than Primed Pressure Point at 2 Statuses applied, and from there it just grows and grows. Even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.
The new ‘Lifted’ Status also counts for Condition Overload calculation. Revised Stances and the new Heavy Attack give reliable ways of applying Status to enemies, which greatly increases the reliability of Condition Overload

stIQ7DS.jpg

 

Edited by BornWithTeeth
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Brozime's calculations are simply incorrect with multiple mistakes. How come CO with 3 status effects do more damage than CO with 3 status effects plus P-Pressure Point... Just plain wrong. He has to edit or take down the video, it is all messed up. And yes, conveniently not mentioning that most of the weapon base damage values have been doubled at least, SC and CC/CD buffed also, and still comparing the actual values... There are other misleading issues with his theory crafting as well. Disliked and unsubscribed. Will subscribe back if this bs is taken down or corrected.

Edited by akots
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21 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

The sky is not falling. I effortlessly beat the OP's suggested mechanics test using a Zaw built for pure Status, no Blood Rush, no Amalgam Organ Shatter, and with one mod slot dedicated to Life Strike.

This is why the melee change hasn't really effected me, my playstyle, or builds.  Simply because I don't use any of those mods in my builds.  

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30 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

you seem really agitated and eager to lecture PC players despite not having the update yet.

... That's pretty much the only reason that console players go to the forum....

 

Post-"haha" Edit: Its true though, console players only go to the forum to demonstrate how futile it is to discuss theories with PC players, that only PC players have proven them right or wrong without any of both the unnecessary and irrelevant input from console players.

Edited by Uhkretor
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8 minutes ago, akots said:

Brozime's calculations are simply incorrect with multiple mistakes. How come CO with 3 status effects do more damage than CO with 3 status effects plus P-Pressure Point... Just plain wrong. He has to edit or take down the video, it is all messed up. And yes, conveniently not mentioning that most of the weapon base damage values have been doubled at least, SC and CC/CD buffed also, and still comparing the actual values... There are other misleading issues with his theory crafting as well. Disliked and unsubscribed. Will subscribe back if this bs is taken down or corrected.

IIRC, he was talking about PPP + CO + 1 90% elemental vs CO + 2 90% elementals (I.E. replacing PPP with an elemental), and demonstrating that it deals only slightly more damage at 3 status effects.

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1 minute ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

IIRC, he was talking about PPP + CO + 1 90% elemental vs CO + 2 90% elementals (I.E. replacing PPP with an elemental), and demonstrating that it deals only slightly more damage at 3 status effects.

Ty

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38 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

EDIT: Apologies, I shouldn't be exasperated.

 

 Deschain, yes, the mod combos have been nerfed but the weapon base stats have been pretty hugely increased, and you seem really agitated and eager to lecture PC players despite not having the update yet.

 

I'll get back to you after shoving another couple of Forma into my Redeemer Prime and seeing how it looks. I've basically never bothered with the thing. Also, these are the changes to its stats:

Redeemer Prime
Damage increased from 80 to 212
Range increased from 0.5 to 1.75
Status Chance increased from 28% to 30%
Critical Chance increased from 16% to 24%

 

Please recall that that other thread was the OP wailing about how the sky is falling and how all melee builds have to be the same now to even approach a shadow of their former power...and then people came in and demonstrated that that's not remotely true? Yeah, the highest damage output builds have been nerfed because the cheesiest mod combinations have had their numerical interactions changed. The sky is not falling. I effortlessly beat the OP's suggested mechanics test using a Zaw built for pure Status, no Blood Rush, no Amalgam Organ Shatter, and with one mod slot dedicated to Life Strike. The OP of that thread was basically suggesting that people wouldn't even be able to do it at all, bless him.

 

Finally....no, I don't think DE should balance the game around level 200+ enemies. The weird idea that multiple hour Endless mission endurance runs are and should be the endgame of Warframe should die in a fire, it's already warped mechanical balance too much.

 

 

 

 

In a post-script...you know that some of your mechanical understanding/assumption here is off? The poster above me is right, CO does not in fact appear to be capped at 3 Status effects. It's still had its interaction with other damage mods nerfed.

Condition Overload - Now uses a stacking multiplier based on how many Status Effects are on the target at 120% damage per Status.
During this whole Melee rebalance, Condition Overload remained a persistent outlier. Since launch, it has had an unintended stacking mechanic, that nothing else uses in the game: it grew exponentially, making it too volatile to balance. We know there’s nothing worse than ‘how can you call this unintended’, so let’s explain the history: initially it did the stacking on final damage, which, as you know from previous changes, we have been trying to move away from. This is because this type of stacking makes for very hard to control damage progression, and tends to be very confusing as to which damage, Melee/Proc etc, applies where. This new version of the mod makes Condition Overload’s damage multiplication become equal to Pressure Point when the enemy has 1 Status applied, better than Primed Pressure Point at 2 Statuses applied, and from there it just grows and grows. Even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.
The new ‘Lifted’ Status also counts for Condition Overload calculation. Revised Stances and the new Heavy Attack give reliable ways of applying Status to enemies, which greatly increases the reliability of Condition Overload

stIQ7DS.jpg

 

 

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