Why are people insisting on attempting on killing a Lich?

[akots]

I've seen multiple times in defense missions that once a lich appears, it acts like a muleta for everyone who run to the other side of the map, abandoning the objective, which stands completely naked, and pleading for somebody to kill the lich. IDK why people do that, it is completely irrational. If it is my lich and I go and try to kill it, we fail the mission since I'm the only one defending the cryopod. Also, I have no idea whether the lich is mine or somebody else's, I don't remember their names and honestly, don't care. Just leave that lich alone, especially if he/she is far enough away. The longer it stays in the mission, the more murmur everyone gets. And if they manage to lure it close enough to the crypod, and it has the Oberon's grass spell, it is essentially an instant failure.

Same is in part true about interception, although there, it is possible to catch up eventually. Same is true with capture target which simply can and will run away if not killed rapidly. Again same with mobile defense. Let that lich be in his corner please as long as it is far enough to not interfere with the mission. In case of the mobile defense, datamass constantly glitches out if somebody who carries it is doing a finisher on thralls or liches.

It can also interfere with survival. As soon as a lich appears, everyone starts dancing around it completely forgetting about capsules, life support, other enemies, just pleading bloody to come and kill it. I'm on another end of the map, sorry, and we have 10% life support left and 30 seconds to finish. By the time I get there, it is going to be too late anyhow. And there is no guarantee that this lich is mine.

Excavation can be extended to 15 minutes while I can solo with Saryn in about 7-8 minutes collecting same amount of murmur from my persistent lich.

Lots of people have trouble with the missions due to relatively high level of enemies. So, lately, I solo whatever I can solo, which is almost everything except rescue and some interception maps and basically forced to play with some meta frame, usually Saryn, Mesa for more open maps, or Oberon for easy mode if going public. Which makes these missions tedious and monotonous, although pretty fast.

Going into recruitment chat is not an option as you need to find 4 people at about same stage interested in collecting murmur only, which takes unreasonable amount of time. Sometimes, you can stumble upon a decent group and stick with it for a few missions.

Hopefully, the lich hype fades out soon because arbitration, endless relic fissures, PoE and OV hunting, and ESO are all pretty barren recently. So, player base is split quite visibly.

[TenebraeAeterna]

11 minutes ago, Franticlly_Skeptic said:

Again you all chose to call names instead of pointing out the flaws in the system. As for the comments of a few people who are doing a lot of commenting they are not reading the issues, instead they are doubling down on the toxic behavior. 

The system is bad. This is true.

The collection of murmurs and the eradication of liches should be a completely separate string missions...not the same missions that force players with different goals into the same instance.

That's not the case though, likely because this is the bare bones foundational start of the much bigger system they have planned, where the liches get capitol ships and tie into the Railjack. It's very likely that the eradication of liches is going to be more of a boss battle down the road...but that's neither here nor there. The system we have right now is currently reliant on you trying to take down your lich so that others can progress.

The "toxic" behavior, I loathe that term, is on your part when you refuse to make the attempt to down your lich and hinder the ability for others to progress. This is why I said, if you don't want to work with the current system, farm the murmurs alone too...or you'll just continue to get spite from everyone else for perfectly valid reasons. It's understandable that you don't want to level your lich when you take them down solo...but the current system makes it extremely crappy for other people if you don't make the attempt to take down your lich when they show.

It essentially makes the entire mission a waste of time for them. The only purpose they served was to help you farm murmers, and their goal wasn't met...just yours. That's why people get annoyed at this behavior, it's the first time I've really seen this community become asshats. It's pretty amusing to watch, considering the system is poorly implemented and a direct cause of such...but either way, that's how it is right now.

Not making the attempt on your lich screws other people over. They will react accordingly.

I'm sure that we can ALL agree that there needs to be some major tweaks to the system...but until then, not making the attempt is bad form.

[TenebraeAeterna]

9 minutes ago, akots said:

I've seen multiple times in defense missions that once a lich appears, it acts like a muleta for everyone who run to the other side of the map, abandoning the objective, which stands completely naked, and pleading for somebody to kill the lich. IDK why people do that, it is completely irrational. If it is my lich and I go and try to kill it, we fail the mission since I'm the only one defending the cryopod. Also, I have no idea whether the lich is mine or somebody else's, I don't remember their names and honestly, don't care. Just leave that lich alone, especially if he/she is far enough away. The longer it stays in the mission, the more murmur everyone gets. And if they manage to lure it close enough to the crypod, and it has the Oberon's grass spell, it is essentially an instant failure.

Same is in part true about interception, although there, it is possible to catch up eventually. Same is true with capture target which simply can and will run away if not killed rapidly. Again same with mobile defense. Let that lich be in his corner please as long as it is far enough to not interfere with the mission. In case of the mobile defense, datamass constantly glitches out if somebody who carries it is doing a finisher on thralls or liches.

It can also interfere with survival. As soon as a lich appears, everyone starts dancing around it completely forgetting about capsules, life support, other enemies, just pleading bloody to come and kill it. I'm on another end of the map, sorry, and we have 10% life support left and 30 seconds to finish. By the time I get there, it is going to be too late anyhow. And there is no guarantee that this lich is mine.

Excavation can be extended to 15 minutes while I can solo with Saryn in about 7-8 minutes collecting same amount of murmur from my persistent lich.

Lots of people have trouble with the missions due to relatively high level of enemies. So, lately, I solo whatever I can solo, which is almost everything except rescue and some interception maps and basically forced to play with some meta frame, usually Saryn, Mesa for more open maps, or Oberon for easy mode if going public. Which makes these missions tedious and monotonous, although pretty fast.

Going into recruitment chat is not an option as you need to find 4 people at about same stage interested in collecting murmur only, which takes unreasonable amount of time. Sometimes, you can stumble upon a decent group and stick with it for a few missions.

Hopefully, the lich hype fades out soon because arbitration, endless relic fissures, PoE and OV hunting, and ESO are all pretty barren recently. So, player base is split quite visibly.

I've only had a mission fail because of a lich once.

What you're describing does happen, but people are slowly adapting to ensure the mission doesn't fail and that they still take down the lich. In most cases, during times like what you're describing, it's usually a couple people taking on the lich with the others working the objective. That's not really an excuse not to bother with the lich, it's a demand to play smarter...and people are.

You don't need the entire team to down the lich. As for remembering, I'm terrible with names too...which is why I'm always one of the individuals helping out with the lich over the objective, unless I know it's not my lich and I'm needed at the objective instead...in which case I remain as they go to take it out.

It's really that simple...it just seems difficult because the game is such a mindless snooze-fest generally.

[Uhkretor]

44 minutes ago, Franticlly_Skeptic said:

Again you all chose to call names instead of pointing out the flaws in the system. As for the comments of a few people who are doing a lot of commenting they are not reading the issues, instead they are doubling down on the toxic behavior. 

I'm sorry, but we've pointed out the flaws. You simply want people to agree with you, even if your attitude is the wrong one.

And we aren't going to agree with you... It isn't out of spite, its because what you did was wrong. Hell, I run 99% of the times Solo and even I can see how wrong you were, and still are.

[akots]

26 minutes ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

...In most cases, during times like what you're describing, it's usually a couple people taking on the lich with the others working the objective. That's not really an excuse not to bother with the lich...

Yes, there might be hope eventually, later on. For now, I stopped playing public lich defense with anything other than Saryn. Which is extremely sad. What I described is not an isolated issue, it is quite persistent problem. All these MR27 Inaros'es leveling up their kuva Brakks running around the map still with Miaming strike zaws and loudly complaining they cannot kill anything... It is priceless. Or stumbling upon a group of MR10 people with all their 3 level 5 liches spawning one after another. I had to finish alone that mobile defense eventually for the first time in ages because they all ran out of revives and I could not get to them in time. IMHO, you are seriously overestimating an average WF player. Fortunately, these cases are only roughly 30% in my experience. The rest 70% is rather reasonable. But then, they don't insist on anything. Is this your lich? Maybe, IDK. U want to kill it? No, not really, I need murmur. OK, no problem, do as you wish. In general, 90% of the time, people are hunting murmur and only 10%, who are really struggling and cannot possibly solo their lich, are those who whine the most.

We do have a few low MR people in the clan who actually have no issues with killing their level 5 liches solo. And it should not be an issue. Just take your Loki and some fast hitting melle and be careful to stay invisible while chopping him up into pieces. There are multiple easy ways to do it without leveling or with leveling. So, I guess, I just have to be more persistent and stick to people I know. Which will make the public land even more barren. So, no, this type of attitude is not helpful or engaging IMHO. People should do as they please, it is a public game. Objective is priority number 1, liches and their interference with objective is priority number 2, your personal agenda is priority number 3, IMHO.

Edited November 11, 2019 by akots

[GruntBlender]

There is so much stupidity, ignorance, and a lack of empathy in this thread. This shouldn't even be an issue, and here's the stuff everyone needs to know boiled down in one post:

1. There are legitimate reasons to not kill your lich. Things like them one-shotting you at higher levels with a tonkor or the current mission telling you the last mod to use and failing means he won't spawn next time. (1/6 chance this mission isn't as good as 100% chance next mission.)

2. People aren't afraid of dying, they're reluctant to level the lich up.

3. You don't have to level up your lich to get them to go away, you just need to die. Allow them to kill you normally, and they'll bugger off. Let the team know this so they don't down it for you or carry self-damage weapons.

4. Getting angry isn't helpful. If someone isn't cooperating, explain to them calmly why they're wrong, getting angry won't make them cooperate, it'll make them think you're a $&*^ and want to inconvenience you for that alone.

P.S. I only get 10 murmurs total from a lich per mission, while some people here are saying it's 10 per attempt. Per attempt would mean that killing the lich is double bad since it stops them spawning next time due to anger resetting. Knowing the first mod would mean guaranteed 10 extra murmurs per mission. But whatever, this isn't the point here.

 

tl;dr: If you don't want to level your lich, let them kill you normally and they'll go away, inform the team so they don't down your lich. If you want a player to get rid of their lich so yours can spawn, tell them they just need to get downed so it'll go away without leveling, and you'll revive them.

 

Edit:

Another solution is joining murmur farms on nodes not controlled by your lich, then your lich has zero chance to spawn and you still get murmurs from thralls. This does require premade groups tho.

Edit 2:

Apparently there's a bug where the lich might not go away in a public game if their player dies. Dammit, DE, you just want us to bicker, don't you...

Edited November 11, 2019 by GruntBlender

[TenebraeAeterna]

16 minutes ago, akots said:

Yes, there might be hope eventually, later on. For now, I stopped playing public lich defense with anything other than Saryn. Which is extremely sad. What I described is not an isolated issue, it is quite persistent problem. All these MR27 Inaros'es leveling up their kuva Brakks running around the map still with Miaming strike zaws and loudly complaining they cannot kill anything... It is priceless. Or stumbling upon a group of MR10 people with all their 3 level 5 liches spawning one after another. I had to finish alone that mobile defense eventually for the first time in ages because they all ran out of revives and I could not get to them in time. IMHO, you are seriously overestimating an average WF player. Fortunately, these cases are only roughly 30% in my experience. The rest 70% is rather reasonable. But then, they don't insist on anything. Is this your lich? Maybe, IDK. U want to kill it? No, not really, I need murmur. OK, no problem, do as you wish. In general, 90% of the time, people are hunting murmur and only 10%, who are really struggling and cannot possibly solo their lich, are those who whine the most.

We do have a few low MR people in the clan who actually have no issues with killing their level 5 liches solo. And it should not be an issue. Just take your Loki and some fast hitting melle and be careful to stay invisible while chopping him up into pieces. There are multiple easy ways to do it without leveling or with leveling. So, I guess, I just have to be more persistent and stick to people I know. Which will make the public land even more barren. So, no, this type of attitude is not helpful or engaging IMHO. People should do as they please, it is a public game. Objective is priority number 1, liches and their interference with objective is priority number 2, your personal agenda is priority number 3, IMHO.

Your claim is strange.

I've pretty much no-lifed the game since I started, which was a couple of weeks after The Emissary. I've gone through six or seven liches now and have never really seen the issues that you're talking about there. Like I said, there was one match where we lost because everyone neglected the mission objective...but that was once out of however many missions it takes to down six to seven liches. Beyond that, everything has gone relatively smoothly...and I've only ever done public matches. Never has anyone in any of these missions spent all their lives, not while I was playing...and it certainly wasn't because I was carrying everyone either. What I previously meant is that, like you, I've noticed people abandon the mission objective to attack the lich...but the repercussions for such were never as dire as you're presenting in any, save one, of the missions I've done throughout the entire course of six or seven liches.

I main Wisp. The closest to what you're talking about that I've seen in a defense mission was when I loaded in late and the cryo-pod was spinning around due to heavy damage...but that too was won. It's not too shocking to me that this happens with the enemies leveled up so high...I'd expect to see more damage on those pods than usual. That said, these missions are for murmurs and liches specifically. They are the primary objective, and it's the only reason anyone is even doing those variant missions...otherwise they would be elsewhere doing other things.

I've never had any issues with these missions being barren either...and I play throughout the day clear up till around 6:00AM EST. Even if that was the case, however, it wouldn't matter...because when someone neglects making the attempt on their lich, it might as well have been barren because the entire reason for being there has been voided out by the individual neglecting to attempt their lich. At that point, I might as well not even be in the mission to begin with, as there is zero payoff and it's a complete waste of time if I'm not there to farm murmurs but actually looking to engage my lich.

What you're saying is that people should scratch your back and enjoy it when you flip them off...as opposed to the whole, "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours."

The way these missions are currently designed, it's meant to be a symbiotic relationship...whereas people refusing to engage their lich are partaking in a parasitic relationship, otherwise they'd farm murmurs solo too. Like I said previously, it's a poorly designed system, but it's the one we currently have...and yes, anyone not making that attempt on their lich is most certainly partaking in bad form, as they are in those missions purely for themselves.

You speak about personal agendas...well, people neglecting to attempt their lich are doing just that; they are putting their personal agenda over everyone else in the group who needs them to stop being an asshat so that they can progress forward themselves.

Again...poorly designed system...but that's what we have right now.

 

[TenebraeAeterna]

9 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

There is so much stupidity, ignorance, and a lack of empathy in this thread. This shouldn't even be an issue, and here's the stuff everyone needs to know boiled down in one post:

1. There are legitimate reasons to not kill your lich. Things like them one-shotting you at higher levels with a tonkor or the current mission telling you the last mod to use and failing means he won't spawn next time. (1/6 chance this mission isn't as good as 100% chance next mission.)

2. People aren't afraid of dying, they're reluctant to level the lich up.

3. You don't have to level up your lich to get them to go away, you just need to die. Allow them to kill you normally, and they'll bugger off. Let the team know this so they don't down it for you or carry self-damage weapons.

4. Getting angry isn't helpful. If someone isn't cooperating, explain to them calmly why they're wrong, getting angry won't make them cooperate, it'll make them think you're a $&*^ and want to inconvenience you for that alone.

P.S. I only get 10 murmurs total from a lich per mission, while some people here are saying it's 10 per attempt. Per attempt would mean that killing the lich is double bad since it stops them spawning next time due to anger resetting. Knowing the first mod would mean guaranteed 10 extra murmurs per mission. But whatever, this isn't the point here.

 

tl;dr: If you don't want to level your lich, let them kill you normally and they'll go away, inform the team so they don't down your lich. If you want a player to get rid of their lich so yours can spawn, tell them they just need to get downed so it'll go away without leveling, and you'll revive them.

I've read that this is supposed to happen, but it doesn't seem to actually work consistently...and I assume it's a bug.

Aside from that, I've seen plenty of people reluctant to even do that, which is downright silly. Either way, good advice and something people are telling others to do in missions when they begin to complain about their lich leveling. Thankfully, I've only run into one who outright refused and was a $&*^ about it...most just take a stab, pun intended, at their lich when they realize why people want them to.

[Test-995]

They are just being selfish, like 80% of people in PuG.

Just ignore them, de gonna fix it later.

[Miyabi-sama]

I don't get it, why people are fed this troll three pages already?

[Chaincat]

you get murmurs for stabbing your lich, so it's pretty worth it imo.

[SordidDreams]

18 minutes ago, Chaincat said:

you get murmurs for stabbing your lich, so it's pretty worth it imo.

Eh, it also levels up your lich and makes thrall missions a lot harder. If you're not able to do level 100 missions equally as quickly and easily as level 50 missions, it will slow down your progress in the long run.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[ixidron92]

hace 26 minutos, SordidDreams dijo:

Eh, it also levels up your lich and makes thrall missions a lot harder. If you're not able to do level 100 missions equally as quickly and easily as level 50 missions, it will slow down your progress in the long run.

[SordidDreams]

2 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

*snip*

I'd say knowing your limits and not needlessly taking on challenges you can't handle is a very important part of being gud.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Test-995]

3 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

As if we can deal more damage by playing better...

[ixidron92]

Justo ahora, SordidDreams dijo:

I'd say knowing your limits and not needlessly taking on challenges you can't handle is a very important part of being gud.

That's literally the opposite of gittin gud.

[SordidDreams]

10 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

That's literally the opposite of gittin gud.

That's some "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" boomer logic you have there.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[GruntBlender]

14 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

...

Going from lvl75 to 100 almost triples enemy EHP, and therefore TTK. With equal amount of gud, lower level mission will still be quicker.

[IamLoco]

10 hours ago, Franticlly_Skeptic said:

Lets be honest most people doing these missions are farming Mumers, and not their Lich. If someone else lich spawns, and theirs does not does not mean that their lich will spawn even if someone adepts it. They are upset at a hypothetical maybe. 

You need to understand one thing:

There are 2 major groups of people.

- People like you who want to keep their liches at a low level and grind all the murmurs needed to defeat him with no risk of dying

- People who want to speed up the process by "guessing" the right combination, they don´t care about higher enemy levels (as it makes no difference to their kill speed)

 

So if you decide not to stab your lich, they can´t get a chance at stabbing theirs and that makes them rant.

[SordidDreams]

11 minutes ago, IamLoco said:

You need to understand one thing:

There are 2 major groups of people.

- People like you who want to keep their liches at a low level and grind all the murmurs needed to defeat him with no risk of dying

- People who want to speed up the process by "guessing" the right combination, they don´t care about higher enemy levels (as it makes no difference to their kill speed)

 

So if you decide not to stab your lich, they can´t get a chance at stabbing theirs and that makes them rant.

Yeah, but the second group needs to understand that demanding that the first group screw themselves over for their benefit is selfish and unreasonable. It's not just about farming out murmurs with no risk of dying, it's about the speed of farming. Going from level 50 to level 75 quadruples enemy EHP, going from 75 to 100 triples it again. Yeah, you get 10 murmurs for stabbing a lich, but that's really not worth it if it makes all future mumur missions take three times as long. Stabbing liches is only worth it for people who can one-shot level 100 mobs, i.e. a small minority of the player base.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[akots]

7 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

You speak about personal agendas...well, people neglecting to attempt their lich are doing just that; they are putting their personal agenda over everyone else in the group who needs them to stop being an asshat so that they can progress forward themselves.

I think you are confused or simply trolling. While at the same time trying to be rude for no reason or provocation whatsoever. I will do what I want and how it pleases me as long as the objectives of the mission are accomplished rapidly and efficiently. I don't particularly care about your personal goals in the mission especially if they conflict with mine. And I respect, unlike you, the goals of other people but want to keep it civil and separate. The lich is mine and I do what I want with it, and everyone in the public game has to respect that and accept my decision. If similar kind of rant would have happened in the actual game chat, you will be reported and most certainly banned.

[akots]

14 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Stabbing liches is only worth it for people who can one-shot level 100 mobs, i.e. a small minority of the player base.

It is not worth it for anyone except some irrational gambling addicts. Good thing the liches or weapons are not tradable for plat, otherwise if it were, the rant would be tripled or quadrupled. I can ohk level 100+ enemies but prefer to act rationally and know at least some of the runes before trying it out, which saves quite a lot of time and effort in the long run. But it seems impossible to explain.

 

5 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

I don't get it, why people are fed this troll three pages already?

It is somewhat entertaining to read, futile but lessens the boredom.

[ixidron92]

hace 1 hora, SordidDreams dijo:

That's some "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" boomer logic you have there.

More like use your brain to do things. Warframe difficulty is literally moronic entry level, but yeah, sure, after level 100 you actually have to plan your Warframe and weapon builds instead of smashing together whatever mods you have laying around. That's how you git gud. It's not even difficult.

[Hyohakusha]

Okay, there is a lot of wrong information in this thread. Thankfully @GruntBlender filled in most of the important bits, though people are still missing a few significant factors.

First off, you only get the stab bonus off of stab attempts with incorrect requiem mods.
    Say I know the first one for my lich is Fass, and I've got a Khra in the second slot. I stab my lich once, Fass lights up. I don't get the bonus murmurs because that was correct. I stab a second time, Fass lights up, Khra goes red, I get Bane'ed by the lich. I get nothing for the success with a correct mod. I will only get the stab bonus from the failed Khra, which will fill into the Murmur-o-meter as the lich goes away. 

Second, the stab bonus is not a fixed amount of 10 thralls worth of murmurs. It varies between 4-10 thralls worth. That bonus is also not shared anymore.

Third, and I can't believe how few people have figured this out so far, liches will convert standard grineer into thralls as long as the lich isn't  knocked on one knee. There are two separate caps for how many thrall can spawn per mission, one for thralls that will spawn in normally, and one for thralls that the lich turns. You let the lich turn thralls, you and everyone else gets their murmurs done faster.
    By leaving your lich alone for a bit before you stab them, you and everyone else on the team will get far more thralls, and therefore murmurs, than by simply stabbing them the second they show up. In fact, stabbing them the second they show up is a horrible idea, since you are costing yourself and everyone else in the squad the bonus murmurs from grineer that the lich turns into thralls, thereby making the grind worse for everyone.

Also, as was pointed out above, stabbing your lich resets their chances of showing up in mission at all. And if you know your combination and need to finish off your lich, don't run on pub. That's just stupid. If you're solo, your lich is the only lich that can spawn. If you're in a group with three other people, you now have a 1/4 chance for your lich to be the lich that spawns. That's no ones fault but your own for running on pub.

My lich list doesn't even fit on one screenshot anymore, just because I took the time to figure out the mechanics of the system and actually cooperate with people when the chance arose, instead of cursing them out and making the experience worse for everyone involved.



I've taken out 26 liches so far and that stab bonus really only helps offset the increased grind on the third murmur. People aren't even complaining about the right issues. The murmur "reduction" for one, is a joke hidden behind misleading math. It was 50/50/50 for a total of 150 thralls for all 3 murmurs. Now its 30/30/70. That's only a reduction of roughly 13.4%, and twenty thralls total. Yet it was shown as 60%/60%/140%, which is correct mathematically, but again, also misleading since its not showing the total number.

Then there's the fact that you are literally better off ignoring your lich until you have at least one of the murmurs figured out, since as soon as you stab them and fail, your chance to encounter them drops like a rock. Not only that, but you're better off soloing the whole thing, since people not only don't understand the conversion mechanic, but will flip out on you for not stabbing your lich, which, again, only increases the grind for everyone. Not to mention that that 10 thralls worth of bonus murmurs has averaged out to about 4-8 thralls worth for me ever since it got added. The whole system is backwards and yelling at people for not stabbing their lich immediately is not only not helping, its making things worse, both in terms of actual progression in game and the general attitude of the community at the moment, towards the lich system as a whole and each other. DE really needs to get this crap straightened out.

To wrap this all up, if someone doesn't want to stab their lich, not only is that not a problem, if the other players just leave the lich alone for a bit, that lich will make more thralls for everyone, and that's the only way to share murmurs with other people at an effective rate since the stab bonus is no longer shared.

Use your brains people.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Hyohakusha

[SordidDreams]

8 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

More like use your brain to do things. Warframe difficulty is literally moronic entry level, but yeah, sure, after level 100 you actually have to plan your Warframe and weapon builds instead of smashing together whatever mods you have laying around. That's how you git gud. It's not even difficult.

OK boomer.

6 minutes ago, Hyohakusha said:

It was 50/50/50 for a total of 150 thralls for all 3 murmurs. Now its 30/30/70. That's only a reduction of roughly 13.4%, and twenty thralls total. Yet it was shown as 60%/60%/140%, which is correct mathematically, but again, also misleading since its not showing the total number.

It's not even that. It's 30/50/70 now. Literally no reduction at all, just a redistribution.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams