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GrimSinner

Is CO limited to 3 status or not?

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Condition Overload’s damage multiplication become equal to Pressure Point when the enemy has 1 Status applied, better than Primed Pressure Point at 2 Statuses applied, and from there it just grows and grows.

Dev notes says it grows and grows, but somewhere I thought I saw a note that said limited to 3 status effects max.  

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No, it does not have a cap. They even provided a spreadsheet somewhere either in the patch notes or leading up comparing the new 60% multiplicative vs 120% additive up as many statuses as you can get.

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It is not.

But it’s also currently not worth using.

Not really true I have a PC account too, the way the new calculation works you're better off using Co and dropping out primed pressure point on most melee builds now.  The way the new calculation works is stacking both of them you get diminishing returns, but that being said prime pressure point will work better on things that are status immune like lichs.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Eluminary said:

Not really true I have a PC account too, the way the new calculation works you're better off using Co and dropping out primed pressure point on most melee builds now.  The way the new calculation works is stacking both of them you get diminishing returns, but that being said prime pressure point will work better on things that are status immune like lichs.

Hmm ok here is where I get confused having presure point wouldnt that be like starting off with 1 stack instead of 0 ? so if you get 4 stacks from co wouldnt that be like 5 stacks with pp on ?

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1 minute ago, Emolition said:

Hmm ok here is where I get confused having presure point wouldnt that be like starting off with 1 stack instead of 0 ? so if you get 4 stacks from co wouldnt that be like 5 stacks with pp on ?

My understanding is the higher you go on Co the dmg stacks less.  1 effect 120% 2 effects 240 (better than primed pressure) then 3 effects I think is where it starts going down in effectness you still get more but not as much more.  If you have both on your starting at 165 and Co will start giving less of a benifit at 1 or 2 .  **Disclaimer** this is just my current understanding I have done some testing in simulacrum and seen stacking both doesn't seem much different than just having co since your getting to kinda a soft dmg % cap both ways

 

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Eluminary said:

My understanding is the higher you go on Co the dmg stacks less.  1 effect 120% 2 effects 240 (better than primed pressure) then 3 effects I think is where it starts going down in effectness you still get more but not as much more.  If you have both on your starting at 165 and Co will start giving less of a benifit at 1 or 2 .  **Disclaimer** this is just my current understanding I have done some testing in simulacrum and seen stacking both doesn't seem much different than just having co since your getting to kinda a soft dmg % cap both ways

 

ok then they changed something and i missed for it thought it was 120+120+120 + what ever primed presure point is and + if there is more stacks.

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20 minutes ago, (PS4)Eluminary said:

Not really true I have a PC account too, the way the new calculation works you're better off using Co and dropping out primed pressure point on most melee builds now.  The way the new calculation works is stacking both of them you get diminishing returns, but that being said prime pressure point will work better on things that are status immune like lichs.

No. You can either wait to kill things while proccing status to get CO ramped up. Or you can just kill them with PPP. CO is only in consideration if you are doing long endurance runs. It’s completely unnecessary, and slower, for star chart missions. 

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30 minutes ago, (PS4)Eluminary said:

Not really true I have a PC account too, the way the new calculation works you're better off using Co and dropping out primed pressure point on most melee builds now.  The way the new calculation works is stacking both of them you get diminishing returns, but that being said prime pressure point will work better on things that are status immune like lichs.

 

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11 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

 

Well in that video he is assuming you drop pp for an elemental mod I've been dropping it for more crit dmg which seems to be more worth it.  Because you can still get red crits with blood rush and gladiator Helios on alot of weapons.

 

22 minutes ago, KosmicKerman said:

No. You can either wait to kill things while proccing status to get CO ramped up. Or you can just kill them with PPP. CO is only in consideration if you are doing long endurance runs. It’s completely unnecessary, and slower, for star chart missions. 

Well Star chart is star chart your going to 1 hit that stuff either way for the most part.

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36 minutes ago, (PS4)Eluminary said:

My understanding is the higher you go on Co the dmg stacks less.  1 effect 120% 2 effects 240 (better than primed pressure) then 3 effects I think is where it starts going down in effectness you still get more but not as much more.  If you have both on your starting at 165 and Co will start giving less of a benifit at 1 or 2 .  **Disclaimer** this is just my current understanding I have done some testing in simulacrum and seen stacking both doesn't seem much different than just having co since your getting to kinda a soft dmg % cap both ways

 

It'll be an increase of the same amount every time, it's just that that increase percentage wise isn't that high with both on.

If you have a weapon with say, 100 damage. On build one you have Pressure Point and Condition Overload, on build two you have just Condition Overload.

#1: 

0 stacks = 220 damage.

1 stack = 340 damage, increase of ~55% damage.

2 stacks = 460 damage, increase of ~35% damage over previous, total increase of 109%.

3 stacks = 580 damage, increase of 26% damage over previous, total increase of ~164%.

#2:

0 stacks = 100 normal damage.

1 stack = 220 damage, increase of 120% damage.

2 stacks = 340 damage, increase of ~55% damage, total increase of 240% damage.

3 stacks = 460 damage, increase of ~35% damage, total increase of 360% damage.

Mathematically each stack with just Condition Overload is worth a larger increase in damage, comparatively, so when you're looking at "best in slot" Pressure Point can be substituted for something that multiplies off of Condition Overload, such as an elemental mod or crit.

Take build #2 for example, slap on a 90% elemental in the free mod slot not taken up by Pressure Point. At no stacks you're only 30 damage behind build one, at one stack you're at 418 damage whilst build 1 is at 340, 78 damage ahead. That lead grows with every stack.

Now, fair warning, I'm hella tired and half drunk, so everything I typed might be the ravings of a madman... but it makes sense to me.

(I used Pressure Point instead of the Primed version because... it was easier.)

Edited by DeMonkey
Ahhh typos, my only friend.
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If you want a rough idea of why spreading out your mods among different damage types is better than stacking just one damage type: https://www.byrdseed.com/explore-geometry-area-and-perimeter/

Note, I just found some random site by googling perimeter, area, and why squares have the most area for a given perimeter as a kind of analogous situation to damage in warframe.

Edited by schilds
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7 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It is not.

But it’s also currently not worth using.

dude, how do you not get tired of being always wrong

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5 minutes ago, ebrl said:

dude, how do you not get tired of being always wrong

Because I’m never wrong just less right.

tho in this case I’m just not wrong.

Also, hi erbl. I’d say I missed you but I really haven’t.

Edited by (XB1)GearsMatrix301
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9 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It is not.

But it’s also currently not worth using.

False.

Whatever your opinion on it being "nerfed" it is still worth using. What you are doing is conflating "no longer a required mod" with "no longer worth using"

3 hours ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Let me add some math to my previous post as a demonstration. All of the numbers below are based on the Lesion and my builds. Red numbers are total final damage numbers.

PRE NERF - These were the numbers before the nerf
Base damage total:    100                        
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                        
Elemental Multiplier    2.4    (four 60/60 mods)                    
Total Base damage    901                        
CO Multiplier       0           1              2             3              4             5                   6
Total Damage    901    ‭1,441.6‬    ‭2,306.6‬    ‭3,690.5    ‭5,904.8    ‬‭9,447.7    15,116.3
                            

                            
CLAIMED POST NERF - This is the math people are using to demonstrate how bad they think the nerf is.                     
Base damage total:    100 <- This number is WRONG because they buffed the base damage.
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                    
                            
CO Multiplier    0        1        2        3        4        5       6
                      265    365    465    565    665    765    865
                            
Elemental Multiplier    2.4  <- This number is WRONG because they buffed status allowing better mods.                 
Total damage    636    876    1116    1356    1596    1836    2076
                            
                            
ACTUAL POST NERF - This is the reality of the post nerf numbers              
Base damage total:    237.1  <- This is the CORRECT post buff damage number.          
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                        
                            
CO Multiplier    0          1            2            3              4            5             6
                    628.3    865.4    1102.5    1339.6    1576.7    1813.8    2050.9
                            
Elemental Multiplier    3.45    (three 60/60 mods + Primed Fever Strike)    <- This is the CORRECT post buff elemental multiplier.                
Total damage    2167.7    2985.7    3803.7    4621.7    5439.7    6257.7    7075.7

 

Notice how the damage output is actually BETTER until you reach 4 status effects and even then at the 4th the difference is negligible. At 5 Status effects the difference is noticeable and at 6 status effects the damage is about half of what it was. What this means is that unless you are fighting extremely hard mobs that are going to be alive long enough to stack 5 or 6 full status effects you are actually BETTER off under this new system.

None of the above takes into account that the Crit rate was TRIPPLED on this particular weapon or that the swing speed also seems to have increased. It also doesn't take into account that slash procs should be doing more damage due to the increased base damage. These factors should help to close the gap to some degree at the higher levels.

 

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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5 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

False.

Whatever your opinion on it being "nerfed" it is still worth using. What you are doing is conflating "no longer a required mod" with "no longer worth using"

 

Just replace it with primed reach in your build. It’s not worth using.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Just replace it with primed reach in your build. It’s not worth using.

But, but, I already have Primed Reach. I also have both PPP AND CO. Three 60/60 mods and Primed Fever Strike. And I tear through level 120 CHG's like a food processor tears through a carrot.

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Just to clear up the confusion, in the phase 2 workshop they did originally say it was going to be limited to 3 stacks, but I guess they eventually changed their minds about that.

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16 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It is not.

But it’s also currently not worth using.

Better than primed pressure point usually, if you want to complain about anything it's the fact that primed pressure point is largely obsolete with how CO is additive now.  

They do not limit stacks, I'm guessing before when it was limited to 3 stacks in their testing it was a multiplicative bonus like bane mods, but when you change it to be an additive bonus you don't really need a limit as much even though +360% is still far better then primed pressure point.  

 

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39 minutes ago, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

Just to clear up the confusion, in the phase 2 workshop they did originally say it was going to be limited to 3 stacks, but I guess they eventually changed their minds about that.

My guess the convo was like

SW person 1: "well, adding in the 3 stack limit is sorta annoying in the code and probably confusing to the players, how can do it easier"

SW person 2: "use the same additive method as chroma, make the damage a bit higher and keep it upcapped".  

SW person 1: "cool, be done coding in 30 minute...go out for a beer"?

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3 hours ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

Better than primed pressure point usually, if you want to complain about anything it's the fact that primed pressure point is largely obsolete with how CO is additive now.  

They do not limit stacks, I'm guessing before when it was limited to 3 stacks in their testing it was a multiplicative bonus like bane mods, but when you change it to be an additive bonus you don't really need a limit as much even though +360% is still far better then primed pressure point.  

 

It’s not better than PPP.

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11 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

False.

Whatever your opinion on it being "nerfed" it is still worth using. What you are doing is conflating "no longer a required mod" with "no longer worth using"

 

While yes, CO is absolutely still a strong mod, the whole writeup you quoted seems to be trying to come in with an angle of "well you have to look at the WHOLE picture!" to diminish the effects of how much weaker CO itself is, and then completely ignore the loss of combo multiplier to basic attacks.

The whole picture together is very messy, though, there's a lot of parts going on between stat and mod function shufflings. Especially since a sizable chunk of that whole system is probably currently unknown: the damage multipliers and forced procs on the reworked stances compared to old ones. I don't think DE included ANY acknowledgement of this in their patch notes, and indeed, all of that info in the old system was "secret" to begin with and had to be manually tested to fill out the stance info on the wiki. It's going to take quite a bit of time before we have similar numbers for the new, reworked stances.

About the only thing I've really heard on the subject is that the old "Broken Bull" combo for greatswords took a very sizable nerf to its damage multipliers now. Though it was also grossly overpowered before.

Edited by OvisCaedo

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